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Railguns wrote:Are you trolling or something Nurglitch? Thats a quick and dirty example combat where the demons got the drop on an assault Terminator squad. The kind of quick math someone would do in the middle of game to figure their chances and make decisions. It's been far too long since I took statistics to do a proper analysis of what the chances are of x casualties are compared to y.

No, I'm not trolling. I'm saying that I think just doing a quick and dirty calculation of the expected average is misleading. After all, this isn't a game, this is a discussion forum where we have the time and leisure to do a more complete analysis. And if you have time to calculate the expected average, then you have time to calculate the likelihood of each event.

That's because you're meched up. Mech does well against Lash by its very nature.

The thing is, you can have the best of both worlds.

Mech+Lash. Now suddenly you've got the best ability in the codex combined with the most powerful general build in 5ed; mech. It's not only better in a head-to-head, it's also better against a wider array of lists.

Regardless of calculations Mechanized + Daemon Bomb + Monstrous seems a good army build. Someone had already talked briefly about it. Its like someone said you charge the powerweapons and such then just bog them down.

The problem I see it has is that it needs anti-transport w/ Antitank.

This can be resolved by two ways ; Defilers, Obliterators w/ Meltas, Rhinos w/ Meltaguns, Monstrous Creatures such as Daemon Princes in CC w/ tanks.

So lets talk about the Core of the army when looking at 1000 points

2 16 man daemon Squads : 416
1 Greater Daemon : 100

Troops
10 man w/ 2 meltas, aspring , Icon of Chaos, Rhino 230
10 man w/ 2 meltas , aspiring, Icon of Chaos, Rhino 230


I think that is a good start.

If you're facing a Mechanized opponent then it might be an idea to have a Sorcerer of Tzeentch on a Disc, accompanied by Raptors. Combine a Bolt of Change with Warptime, and two Meltas, and you'd have the firepower and hittiness to crack open transports and kill the units inside, combined with the Personal Icon and Icon of Chaos Glory in the unit to give you interesting options for pulling in the Daemon units.

I like the idea of daemon bomb armies because it really fits well and seems semi viable. I think Mechanized Daemon Bomb is the way to go with multiple rhinos and daemons.

Although you cant assault after disembarking with a squad of Troops.

Here is the deal, you bring daemons in at the beginning of the turn six inches or so from a transport then just move up disembark with the Chaos Marines and assault what is inside with the daemons.

Well if someone would like to run that calculation then go ahead, I don't remember how to do that.

Sure thing. I'll work it up in a spreadsheet.

Yeah, that's how it works ideally:

Turn 1: zoom rhinos forward 12" and pop smoke. MCs fly 12" and then run (assuming they're not in assault range and don't want to shoot.

Turn 2: summon whatever daemons arrive off icons in the rhinos--they can assault directly--disembark/move/assault with marines, and throw flying daemons in against vulnerable targets they can reach. Surviving rhinos can drive off and cause trouble on their own.

In two turns you can reach out and assault 26-30" from deployment, up to as much as 36" with the flyers.

If there are transports, then you can't just rush headlong obviously. But regardless of how you play it, you're starting every turn, especially those where daemons arrive, with the ability to assault up to about 14" from any intact rhino.

The army needs some dakka; I think Defilers w/ battlecannons and CC arms are going to be the best bet and maybe a squad of Chaos marines w/ Autocannons.

Gives you large templates: Deals w/ Nobs, doesn't deal w/ Terms, Does deal w/ Armour 12 decently. Pins.

Hollismason:

The Defiler's Battlecannon is normal Ordnance, not an Ordnance Barrage weapon. It does not pin.

Ah thanks for the clarification. Did you have that spreadsheet for combat ?

Id kind of like to see that optimal squad size. 15+ seems good

Played an enhanced marine list at 'ard Boyz, using 4 units of transported enhanced CSM with mark of khorne & melta flamer and a single unit of 13 summoned daemons. So just to add some anecdotal to this thread:

The enhanced marines worked really well--36 attacks charging is hard for anything to handle (not even counting the powerfist). It did actually happen that a unit of enhanced marines had to eat a charge from 14 genestealers--to delay the stealers getting close to objectives. They lost the combat by 5, just as in my example, lost one more guy to the fearless save, then went on in the following round to finish off the genestealers, winding up with the powerfist and the icon bearer still alive at the end--who then proceeded to slow down the next unit of stealers behind that.

Something I hadn't noticed before is that the enhanced pfist champ is str9, which enabled me to take out 3 ironclad dreads and a landraider in the course of 3 games (the ironclads historically gave my power fists problems). Also in one game two of the units got the str+2 result, and those guys with str 10 powerfists were able to take out two landraiders.

They work like khorne berzerkers in HtH (the str5 is actually more of an advantage, I think, than WS5) and like chaos marines in shooting. Definitely would use them again.

The daemons were key in a couple of games, tarpitting and grinding down units of terminators that my enhanced marines (and especially the plague marines) didn't want to go near. In round 1 the daemons came it at just the right time and moment to charge into a big scrum where my last plague marine was holding out against a crowd of nids. The daemons with their 39 attacks on the charge killed all the remaining rippers, causing enough wounds that the remaining fearless units all had to make 11 saves apiece, thus also wiping out a hive tyrant, a couple of warriors, and the remnants of a unit of gaunts, and leaving the opponent with no remaining synapse. The fact that they come in where you want and can immediately go in with the massed attacks is what makes them work.

Oh, and the HQ that everybody said was useless? Fabius Bile? Lived through every round (including the all-important round 2) with his invul and feel no pain, and in the third round killed Vulcan in 1 on 1 combat with his non-power weapon. Did anybody notice that Bile gets 6 attacks at str5? He just needs one unsaved wound to take out any character.

The tally of genetic problems in 3 games? 2 of the 4 units got the "6" result in round 2, and that's it. One of the units got wiped out taking down some terminators (str 6 helps when trying to mass wounds), and the other unit took out the aforementioned land raiders and ended the game with 3 guys left. It really wasn't an issue.

I'm telling you guys, take another look at enhanced marines.

Oh I agree it scales incredibly well, now sub 1500 it may not be viable but above that point level its fantastic.


Good point on the STR9 and STR 10 powerfist.

Flavius:

I hate to be a dick, and I really don't want to say this because what you've posted really validates what I've been saying about Fabius Bile since the Codex came out, but he doesn't have an invulnerable save...

Whoops, well knock me over with a feather. I totally cheated!

I thought for some reason that Bile had a 4++ from the Chirurgeon. Well, it wouldn't have made any difference in the outcomes of the games anyway. He spent a good portion of the time hiding.

Also I remembered that I was mistaken about round 1: Bile did die when I stupidly allocated a Str10 hit to him without thinking about it, and then failed the armor save. My inexperience with the character rather than a weakness in the character, though.

It actually works out better in huge numbers although it can be a detriment. With the possibility of losing the mark on the chance you roll a 1 and then fail the guys armour save.

Although facing a 20 man unit w/ 5 plus invulnerable fearless and str5 is incredibly annoying.

Sure, but you can take regular Possessed Chaos Space Marines for that sort of thing.

Possessed chaos marines aren't troops.

That's the key thing that helped me with this army in an objective-heavy tournament. Except for 2 units of 2 oblits and Bile, every unit in the list was fearless troops.

Their 5 points cheaper and get meltaguns ; eh it whatever.


I actually really really like Possessed and find them incredibly viable.


Has anyone looked at just using base terminators as is? No Icon no nothing, 30 points for 2 attacks w/ powerweapons and 2 + and 5+ invulnerable.

DId you ever get that spreadsheet?


I think Terminators would be something to look at in combination w/ Chosen w/ Icons infiltrating seems like an alright combo.

10 Chosen w/ 5 meltaguns, Icon of Tzeentch 270 ;
10 man Terminator squad w/ Icon Of Tzeentch 340.

510 isnt bad for that.


I don't know have not had much experience with them. Again personally I would use them similar to what marines use Sternguard w/ Combimeltas, 10 man squad w/ 10 combimelta 350; 2+ and 5 +.

Would probably get owned by Monstrous.

The ability to gain a extra attack for 10 points is pretty nifty.

Flavius, did bad genetic result rolls ever have you losing a critical member of the squad at a critical time? For example, did you lose alot of squad members anytime for rolling a "1", and did your +2 Strength members suffer at the end of the game?

Actually curious about that myself.

If I may say, I totally called it. Renaissance!

The Possessed Daemon Domb is ideally my army in action. I just find that a one dimensional strategy hurts, so I spread the Personal Icons around to let me respond to other threats. Obliterators go hand in hand with this, because with the spread of Icons they can Deepstrike reliably for Multi-melts, TL Flamers, etc. Termicide is benefitted by this too.

I like Obliterators but feel better served by having 2 or 3 defilers instead w/ Terminators dropping in.

for 4 obliterators you can get 10 terminators base. Throw in two Defilers and some meltas on your terms and you got a nasty piece of work.

Its just a survivability factor , 10 or even 8 models to equal the wounds of the oblits stick around longer.


8 Terms w/ 2 powerfists , 4 combimeltas, Mark of Tzeetch = 340 points

Flavius Infernus:

Sure, but my point was that if 5++ and S5 is what you want, Possessed give it to you at a better cost/risk ratio.

As Fearless troops go, Enhanced Marines are great. It's just a bit risky to dump so many points in a single unit when the benefit of Chaos Space Marines is being able to spread your points among more units.

Hollismason:

Yup. Here are the results:

Five Lightening Claws
A3, hitting 4+, wounding 4+ re-rolled, saving 5+

Min. Potential Likelihood
15 0.000890897
14 0.001187863
13 0.001583818
12 0.002111757
11 0.002815676
10 0.003754234
9 0.005005646
8 0.006674194
7 0.008898926
6 0.011865234
5 0.015820313
4 0.02109375
3 0.028125
2 0.0375
1 0.05
0 0.066666667



Five Thunder Hammers
A2, hitting 4+, wounding 2+, saving 5+
Min. Potential Likelihood
10 0.003861077
9 0.005346107
8 0.007402302
7 0.010249341
6 0.014191395
5 0.019649624
4 0.027207171
3 0.037671468
2 0.052160494
1 0.072222222
0 0.1


Twenty Lesser Daemons Assaulting
A3, hitting 4+, wounding 4+, saving 2+
Min. Potential Likelihood
60 0.001296715
59 0.001353094
58 0.001411924
57 0.001473312
56 0.001537369
55 0.001604211
54 0.001673959
53 0.00174674
52 0.001822685
51 0.001901932
50 0.001984625
49 0.002070913
48 0.002160953
47 0.002254907
46 0.002352947
45 0.002455249
44 0.002561999
43 0.00267339
42 0.002789624
41 0.002910912
40 0.003037474
39 0.003169538
38 0.003307344
37 0.003451141
36 0.003601191
35 0.003757764
34 0.003921145
33 0.00409163
32 0.004269527
31 0.004455159
30 0.004648861
29 0.004850986
28 0.005061898
27 0.005281981
26 0.005511632
25 0.005751268
24 0.006001323
23 0.00626225
22 0.006534522
21 0.006818632
20 0.007115094
19 0.007424446
18 0.007747248
17 0.008084085
16 0.008435567
15 0.00880233
14 0.00918504
13 0.00958439
12 0.010001103
11 0.010435933
10 0.010889669
9 0.011363133
8 0.011857182
7 0.012372712
6 0.012910656
5 0.013471989
4 0.014057728
3 0.014668933
2 0.015306713
1 0.015972222
0 0.016666667


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To explain the numbers a little: the leftmost number is the minimum potential wounds caused on the enemy unit, with the rightmost number being the probability as a % of doing that many wounds. Which also means I fluffed the formula slightly and need to edit...

Nifty thanks a bunch, gives a good idea of what is possible.

I am not super clear on the numbers but will try and look over it.

whitedragon wrote:Flavius, did bad genetic result rolls ever have you losing a critical member of the squad at a critical time? For example, did you lose alot of squad members anytime for rolling a "1", and did your +2 Strength members suffer at the end of the game?

I got lucky and didn't roll any 1's for genetics in the 3 games (for any of the 4 units). Statistically I should have seen 2 units go "berzerk rage" during the course of the day, and if I continue to play this army long enough, it's nearly inevitable that eventually I'll play a game where berzerkness cripples several of my units at the start of a critical game.

The icons, fists, and special weapons are all on different models to spread the risk around, and having 4 identical units creates enough redundancy that if one unit loses an icon or fist to berzerkitude, their role can be covered by another unit while they do something different. Even if you lose your champ, icon, and special weapons, you still have a unit of 6 str5 fearless chaos marines who can sit on an objective or something. 3 units would also probably be sufficient in smaller games.

Overall the risk for each unit of losing a specific model to berzerk rage is pretty small--about 5 percent for a given model. Then more chance, of course, the more units you have.

Two units in the 3 games got the "Created a Monster" result, so I just flung them straight into assault as quickly as possible--which they kind of wanted to do anyway. Rhino rush assaulty marine/daemon army is an early game advantage army anyway, so if you're not in assault by turn 2 or 3 (when you still have 7-8 models) then you're fighting a potentially risky attrition battle where the Monster losses might be a problem. Multiple units are nearly always going into an assault at the same time, so even if the Monster guys go down, there's still something there to hold out.

Being able to pull whichever model you want is an advantage with the Monster result, so even if like the meltagun and powerfist guys are the last to remaining, you can always send them tankhunting or something.

Most games I just rolled and the dice all came up in the mid-range, and it was surprisingly stress-free.

Flav, did you post your full list up somewhere?

whitedragon wrote:Flav, did you post your full list up somewhere?

It's up now here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/248004.page#835567

The noise marines are the obvious weakness--it was a modeling issue and nervousness about the genetic effects table. If I had it to do over with what I know now, I'd take a 5th unit of enhanced marines instead.