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There are certain special characters in rule books that have special weapons and/or special stat lines but are otherwise based on the normal HQ units in the game.

My question specifically deals with Maneus Calgar, his stat line says that he has 4 attacks (with a normal character having 3 attk) and he has the gauntlets of Ultrama, a pair of special Power fists, with built in bolters. Would he get an extra attack for having two close combat weapons, giving him 5 attacks in close combat, or is the 4 attacks meant to include this +1 for having two close combat weapons. (there are a few other marine heros that I am aware of that have this dilemna).

Normally as it is not mentioned as being included then I have played with maneus as getting +1 in close combat for having the 2 weapons.

Any bonus represented in a characteristic profile is stated specifically that it is shown in the profile. Marneus get's 5 attacks, 6 if Assaulting!

YES, WOO HOO!

wow the enemy goes

-Cough-
He doesn't get the +1 for two weapons

If he uses the two Fists, he DOES.

Gwar! wrote:-Cough-
He doesn't get the +1 for two weapons

I've always thought that the +1 attack applies? Why wouldn't it ? (Not saying it does, but I want to know why it doesn't)

Pocket book p 42:

"blabla Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons"

Codex p 82:

"These are a matched pair of power fists."

He has 2 Different Special Weapons. He has Power Fist and Power Sword, so can never claim the +1 Attack, even if he uses the two fists.

As the rulebook says, such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.

Ahh yep, actually hadn't noticed that he also carried a power sword.

Lost one good thing, gained another then I guess

As I'm imagining he doesn't need to strike at I:1 with the power sword?

SuperioR wrote:As I'm imagining he doesn't need to strike at I:1 with the power sword?

You imagine correctly You can't split the attacks, but you can choose to go at regular Initiative if you want, such as against squishy Guardsmen

Lord nooooooo ....

The only way that fighting with 2 weapons works is if you only pick 2 weapons. You can't fight with 3, 4 or more weapons.

If the 2 weapons you have selected grant a +1A bonus that's what you get.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240925.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/235118.page

Except, you have to choose to use them. The fact you had to choose between special weapons means you do not get the bonus attack.

But anyway, I will agree to not push this any further if you do to.

Gwar! wrote:Except, you have to choose to use them. The fact you had to choose between special weapons means you do not get the bonus attack.

But anyway, I will agree to not push this any further if you do to.

only if the pair of weapons chosen are 2 special weapons

Gwar! wrote:Except, you have to choose to use them. The fact you had to choose between special weapons means you do not get the bonus attack.

But anyway, I will agree to not push this any further if you do to.

But calgar has 3 special weapons. He has two powerfists and a powersword. The rules dont cover choosing between 3 different weapons, only 2. As such this is a situation where you have to work it out for yourself because the rules as written dont cover it.

Please don't drag this up again guys, please. Look at poor Tri. He's a broken man after the last time. He has that avatar pic for a reason you know. Poor man will never be the same...

Neconilis wrote:Please don't drag this up again guys, please. Look at poor Tri. He's a broken man after the last time. He has that avatar pic for a reason you know. Poor man will never be the same...

Well not so much broken as exasperated ... and i have the amazing Marneus Calgar weilding 3 weapons as I think its funny as hell, he get replaced once I make some thing new.

He is truly epic ... I should really make him for my collection

As I have not read the previous post you are refering too, may I shed some possible theory onto the maneus calgar dilemna (which is a side track to the greater question do to his powersword).

Asuming for one sec we are in agreance that the character would normally get the +1 attack, then I beleive that maneus calgar will logically and also by the rules get the rule aswell.

ARGUMENT 1) Maneus Calgar has 2 special weapons, 1 being the pair of fists (for which he will recieve a +1 to attack) and a power sword for which he will strike in normal initiative.

ARGUMENT 2) Maneus Calgar has 3 special weapons, 2 fists and 1 sword, if he chooses to use his two fists then being the same they give him +1 to attack, but if he uses the power sword in any combination then he will not gain the +1 to attack but may strike at either normal initiative or double strength.

ARGUMENT 3) The rules for 2 different weapons are for models using them both or having one in each hand, with three weapons manues a) chooses not to use the sword or b) doesnt even have it in his hand to use therefore it is not even a factor in the equation.

ARGUMENT 4) Only enemy players of SM player argue that manues cannot get the +1 to attack, they are possibly bitter and possibly unsporting, most space marine players I would hope are not so to other special characters in similar dilemna's.

ARGUMENT 5) GW got it wrong again and we need to meet them halfway in a reasonable manner. Manues is older than my family generations that I know by name, surely he can work out how to get the extra attack! lol this is only a joke and should not be taken as an actually foundational argument but still has some merit.

Lord Kas wrote:
ARGUMENT 4) Only enemy players of SM player argue that manues cannot get the +1 to attack, they are possibly bitter and possibly unsporting, most space marine players I would hope are not so to other special characters in similar dilemna's.

Let's not get carried away. I try to play by RAW even when it creates a disadvantage for me. Both sides of this argument have very clear and reasonable arguing points.

The rules say if you have 2 different special weapons, you don't get a bonus attack. They also say that if you have 2 of the same special weapon, you do get it. Which of these takes precedence has been discussed extensively, but that doesn't mean that anyone is being unsportsmanly, it means that GW doesn't write rules that cover all of the combination that they make possible. but, c'est la vie.

Deffgob wrote:

Lord Kas wrote:
ARGUMENT 4) Only enemy players of SM player argue that manues cannot get the +1 to attack, they are possibly bitter and possibly unsporting, most space marine players I would hope are not so to other special characters in similar dilemna's.

Let's not get carried away. I try to play by RAW even when it creates a disadvantage for me. Both sides of this argument have very clear and reasonable arguing points.

The rules say if you have 2 different special weapons, you don't get a bonus attack. They also say that if you have 2 of the same special weapon, you do get it. Which of these takes precedence has been discussed extensively, but that doesn't mean that anyone is being unsportsmanly, it means that GW doesn't write rules that cover all of the combination that they make possible. but, c'est la vie.

True! However I have met people who will argue for thier side in a debate simply cos they want to win.

The rule that i pointed out in the other thread. The section in question is "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" So you can only be fighting with a combination of 2 CC. Their is the first paragraph that explains that models with two single-handed weapons use the rules below for the combination they are using.

So why can't say Eldrad use his pistol to gain an extra attack? Or Marneus Calgar not use both fists?
(((the rebuttal)))Its because of the stupid rule (or interpretation of a rule) on page 35. Under "who can fight" it reads that fighters "use any special close combat attacks they have" which allot of people have interpreted as being forced to use Special CCW's (personally I have read it to mean things like servo arms and bio plasm that are in addition to the models attacks). This has been further read to be that you must use both special weapons so never gain an extra attack.

So the way I play "Who can fight" is that you can use any weird and wonderful extra attacks and you use what ever weapons combination to fight that you have (if you have two normal CCW and one special you can use the 2 normal or 1normal and 1 special)(if you've only one or two weapons your stuck with that out come).

I play this away for 3 reasons.
1) GW is getting really sloppy about writing what is a 2 handed CC and what is a 1 handed CCW. By default every thing is now 1 handed unless told other wise (combined with their stupid list of normal CCW including a rifle butts and bayonets)
2)The rules don't cover 3 or more weapons and IMHO pick 2 weapons to use is the best way to cover it.
3)I can't read who will fight and see it say "must fight with any special close combat weapons) (that said if you've got some thing you've got to use it unless you've got more then 2)

So make up your own mind about whether you get an extra attack if you don't agree (or can't) roll off. It's GW magic solution to fixing problems (, rather then write clear concise rules).

I'm confused why does Marius not get the +1A for using the Gauntlets of ultramar?

Gauntlets of ultramar: These are a matched pair of powerfists.

Red_Lives wrote:I'm confused why does Marius not get the +1A for using the Gauntlets of ultramar?

Gauntlets of ultramar: These are a matched pair of powerfists.

Marius? Does he have a brother called Louigius?

Seriously though, Lord Kas summed it up really well.

There is a rule which says you can't have an extra attack when you've got two different special weapons. Marneus has three special weapons. So, the rule could mean that since he's got 2xpower fists and a powersword to choose from then he can never get the extra attack. Or, it could mean that when he's using the power sword he can never get the extra attack.

It's vague. Personally, I'd just forget the powersword, give him +1A and have him always at I1. Problem solved. (besides, how does weilding a powersword in a slow clumsy I1 powerfist let him strike faster? Does he take the fist off?)

ETA, personally I think the powersword was added as an afterthought because the model has it and no-one actually considered what effect it would have.

I think Scott-S6 is right about the origin of his sword, but this shouldn't be a hard ruling. You can't possibly attack with both a power sword and both fists in 5th edition. He definitely gets the +1A for the gauntlets because it specifically calls out that it's a matched set of powerfists, but you can't use two different types of special weapons in the same attack. Calgar has a choice in how he attacks either his sword is sheathed and he is brawling with his two fists or his sword is drawn and he is slashing at the enemy. I really don't understand what the debate is here. He either has two powerfist, or he has a powerfist and a sword. How would he punch and slash with one hand?