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I just recently got back from a local 40K tourney and had an absolute blast. My 3rd game though had a very interesting issue arise on turn 2 when my opponent outflanked his squardron of two Vendetta's. They came on in such a way near the board edge that not only did his Vendetta's overlap each other physically but also overlap my own models by coming well within an inch to several. I obviously thought this was not within the rules and called a rules official over. In the end, my opponent basically was allowed to place a squadron of two Vendetta's in an area that could really only accomodate one.

The official ruling at the tournament was that the Vendetta's wings and tail section of the model are not taken into account when determining if the model(s) are within an inch of your opponents or overlaping each other. Is this really legit?

Please see attached picture.
Thanks.

1) Make the poll right.
2) Even so, the Tail is more than 1" vertically above the Enemy it is not not? If so it would be legal. Just because they are OVER the model, they do not occupy the same space. So long as they are 1" over the enemy model, they are fine.
3) Nothing illegal about overlapping a friendly vendetta. They can be touching hull to hull if they so want.
4) Gogo Modelling for advantage, kicking it old school since 1980something.

I was the opponent in question. Sorry its bothering you so much, i feel bad about that really.

It should be noted that I had asked how it would be ruled before the tournament started so I would know how to play it.

However the GW rep (someone pretty high up in events planning, sorry I forget his name) at the tournament said he is going to request that the Ard Boyz rule packet include a ruling specifically on how the vendetta should be used. He agreed that it is very confusing and that it is something that needs to be officially clarified.

That way guys like the OP will not be surprised and I will know in advance how it will be ruled for sure when I build my list.

bigtmac68 wrote:I was the opponent in question. Sorry its bothering you so much, i feel bad about that really.

It should be noted that I had asked how it would be ruled before the tournament started so I would know how to play it.

However the GW rep (someone pretty high up in events planning, sorry I forget his name) at the tournament said he is going to request that the Ard Boyz rule packet include a ruling specifically on how the vendetta should be used. He agreed that it is very confusing and that it is something that needs to be officially clarified.

That way guys like the OP will not be surprised and I will know in advance how it will be ruled for sure when I build my list.

Ya'll shouldn't feel bad, So long as the tail was more than 1" above the speeders, you would have been 100% watertight fine.

Was the tail more than 1" above the speeders?

yes the tail was well above the speeders, his complaint was that it should not be allowed to be over the speeder in any case regardless of the distance. I know the rule he is referring to, the one about hovering speeders, and i understand his point too.

First thing I was wondering is how can a Valkyrie ( Vendetta ) as a transport allow a unit to disembark 2" from it ( as nearly six inches above the tabletop ) and at the same time remain more than 1" above a model like a Dreadnought or Land Speeder on a flight stand ?

Second thing, and more rule specific, is the entry in the rulebook for Moving Skimmers ( page 71 ) "...skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either..."

Clearly one Vendetta is on top of the other.

The problem stems from two things

1) You're right
2) you're wrong

How is that possible? Judges

Some will say they cant do that (Im in agreement due to the above statement and I prefer playing a bit abstractly which speeds up the game like in 4th ed)

However others will say "skimmers only exist in terms of their flying bases cause GW said flying bases = the model".. So technically as long as their BASE doesnt end on top then its fine

Does it make sense? I dont know cause I got bored trying to decipher their 5th edition changes that didnt help make the game better (Wound allocation, true LOS, skimmer insanity)

At the end of the day it comes down to the judge who probably doesnt even play 40k except for ultramarines every 2 years :p (no offense to anyone just every single judge ive seen in my area or store owner plays ultramarines and only once every edition)

toxic_wisdom wrote:First thing I was wondering is how can a Valkyrie ( Vendetta ) as a transport allow a unit to disembark 2" from it ( as nearly six inches above the tabletop ) and at the same time remain more than 1" above a model like a Dreadnought or Land Speeder on a flight stand ?

It can't. If you're measuring purely horizontally for disembarking, you would have to measure purely horizontally for proximity as well.

Of course, then it comes down to which parts of the model you consider for measurement.

Second thing, and more rule specific, is the entry in the rulebook for Moving Skimmers ( page 71 ) "...skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either..."
Clearly one Vendetta is on top of the other.

That really depends on how you define 'on top'

One Vendetta is clearly partially above the other... but to me, one of them being 'on top' of the other would require one to be physically sitting on the other.

My mug is sitting on top of the desk, while the ceiling is merely above it, not on top of it.

Being above another model is fine. Otherwise you would never be able to have models on different levels in ruins.

toxic_wisdom wrote:First thing I was wondering is how can a Valkyrie ( Vendetta ) as a transport allow a unit to disembark 2" from it ( as nearly six inches above the tabletop ) and at the same time remain more than 1" above a model like a Dreadnought or Land Speeder on a flight stand ?

Second thing, and more rule specific, is the entry in the rulebook for Moving Skimmers ( page 71 ) "...skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either..."

Clearly one Vendetta is on top of the other.

This bears repeating. GW doesn't need to clarify what's going on, and the judges simply have to see that the rules are enforced.

Kirasu wrote:However others will say "skimmers only exist in terms of their flying bases cause GW said flying bases = the model".. So technically as long as their BASE doesnt end on top then its fine

And they would be wrong, since the rules say to ignore flight bases for everything except assaulting the vehicle.

I have seen so many different rulings on this that I deliberately asked the TO before the tournament which is why they were positioned that way.

Like i have said, i dont care how its ruled, just so I know before I make my list and play the game.

The ruling for this tournament was Base=Model for all purposes except LOS. to me that seems very simple and easy to play by. I know a lot of people do not agree, hopefully GW will make something official about this.

It doesnt matter if its right or wrong which was my point :p Judges from my opinion are those least qualified to argue one way or another.. which is sad and a detriment to tournaments

And they would be wrong, since the rules say to ignore flight bases for everything except assaulting the vehicle.

Yeah and that just furthers the point about the 5th ed skimmer rules making no sense.. how are you supposed to assault the base exactly? The assault rules clearing say you cant move through a model.. the base is inside the model, therefore good luck assaulting it

The absurdity of skimmer rules leads to these kind of issues

Im just saying I understand why judges rule against the actual rule.. They dont know what it is half the time

It would be interesting to see what the GW internal standards are for appointing judges. I remember from my swimming days that there was a whole hierarchy of training courses for officials at swim meets, to the point that there was a couple of people you'd see at every swim meet running the show because they were the only people with enough qualifications to be the Meet Marshal and so on. Of course, swimming isn't the niche hobby that GW tournaments are, but you'd think it would be easier to set up and run a system of qualifications given the smaller scale.

Kirasu wrote:Yeah and that just furthers the point about the 5th ed skimmer rules making no sense.. how are you supposed to assault the base exactly? The assault rules clearing say you cant move through a model.. the base is inside the model, therefore good luck assaulting it

How is the base 'inside' the model?

In the case of the Valk/Vendetta, the base is a good 5 or 6 inches beneath the model. There's very few models in the game that wouldn't be able to move into contact with the base without touching the skimmer's hull.


It does lead to problems with some skimmers on shorter flight stems, since the hull will sometimes hang over the base, making it difficult to get into base contact from some directions (or at all in the case of Monoliths with flight bases)... and since you can't get the attacker's base in contact with the skimmer's hull either you technically would have a problem. Most players from my experience just move the model so that it is touching the skimmer and call it good enough.

Im just saying I understand why judges rule against the actual rule.. They dont know what it is half the time

And sometimes, as in this case apparently, they are simply ruling in favour of what they think makes the most sense and allows the game to function in a reasonable manner.

I agree.. yet the problem still remains..

You go to two different tournaments and get wildly different game shifting rulings heh.. (ex. the deff rolla ruling another 'ard boyz)

I hope before the next round of GTs GW seriously takes a look at the adepticon FAQ or does something to address this..

You can assault either the base or the hull of a skimmer.

The Valkyrie needs careful discussion with your opponent on exactly how you both expect it to work, as the enormously tall flying stand creates a large amount of issues. While they can be resolved by the strictest RAW reading in some cases, in many cases those resolutions are not intuitive and it is common to see people playing different ways.

toxic_wisdom wrote:First thing I was wondering is how can a Valkyrie ( Vendetta ) as a transport allow a unit to disembark 2" from it ( as nearly six inches above the tabletop ) and at the same time remain more than 1" above a model like a Dreadnought or Land Speeder on a flight stand ?

Second thing, and more rule specific, is the entry in the rulebook for Moving Skimmers ( page 71 ) "...skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either..."

Clearly one Vendetta is on top of the other.

I actually agree with this and not with Gwar for the first time. To me, 'on top' means that any part of the model is on top of another part of the model. I think about it in real terms: How could 2 flyers be on top of each other, even if they are hovering? I definitely squirmed at the thought of enemy models being on top of others. If vendetta's had regular flight bases this wouldn't have been possible, and since those are the only models that have those bases I don't think it's reasonable to put them on top of each other... Regardless of the actual call in this case, I've had a few cases like this in the recent past as well.

Consider a Daemon Prince with large wings. Or even a space marine with an ominously pointing hand. Are enemies allowed to come within 1 inch of his pointy finger? of course they are. You measure to the base. Similarly the Daemon is allowed to move his wings over friendly/enemy models, simply because they are not a real representation of where the daemon is.

Models are considered to occupy the space above their base (paraphrased from pg11). A skimmer vehicle is also considered to occupy the physical space its hull occupies. However, a skimmer does NOT occupy the area below its hull.

Following this, the position of the Valkyrie for movement purposes is determined purely on where its base is, with the obvious restriction that the hull must be able to physically be above the base. Ergo, if you can put the two Valk's next to each other, without their bases overlapping, it is a legal placement.

We used the below as a homemade errata/faq on the valk. As it applies to the question at hand, I thought I would share. As it is the quickest, easiest and applies the most common sense. (To us anyway) Feel free to propose this "Unofficial" explanation to your opponent before the game. Let them read it over and work from their. Remember UNOFFICIAL in any way shape or form. This is just what our gaming group uses.

Base equals model for, assault, disembarking and movement. Basically base = model for all purposes except line of site.

How to deal with a few potential issues with the current rules.

If the model became immobilized, take the model off the base and place it on the table and the whole model, including wings and tail section is now able to be assaulted. This gives advantages to both sides and keeps the model acting like other 40k vehicles with out needing to change any current rules.

A immobilized valk can still disembark its troops with all the normal restrictions. Units disembarking, disembark from the hull section. Use the doors as disembark points as per normal rules. Ignore wings, cockpit and tail section for purposes of disembarking. Units cannot "climb" on wings or tail section, until the valk had been destroyed. As per normal rules. Treat as a normal wreak as detailed in the main rule book. If a enemy unit wishes to assault the disembarked unit, ignore the wings and tail section for purposes of passing with in one inch of an enemy model, still cannot "climb" over the vehicle however. This prohibits opponents from using the valk as an invisible force field or forcing a unit to assault the valk that does not wish to.

2 valks can touch each other, much like 2 tanks so long as their bases were not overlapping (that's impossible, or stupid hard to do with the new bases.) Nor could the model end its turn with its base within 1 inch of an opponents model, as per current rules, ignoring the actual model for purposes of contacting other models, yes even enemy models, keeping with base = model.

If the valk gets immobilized over enemy models it would land in the closest possible area to its current location with out being with in 1 inch of an enemy model, this could cause shifting of the original placement. The hull should easily fit with the space given by the above rule or 1' away from the base, wings might cause problems. If the wings or tail section contacts enemy models. Move the model (Valk not opponents models) to the minimum safe distance so it lays on the table using the current drop pod rule for reference. Keeping facing as close to its original as possible. If both opponents agree to the result then done, using current rules as is by utilizing the drop pod rule. If both opponents cannot agree on the placement. It will default to remain attached to flight base, be immobile, and play as is with the exception that all guns from vehicle are considered to be shooting threw terrain, use true line of site but apply a 4+ cover to all models, including vehicles hit by the valk. Valk keeps its commanding view of the battlefield but suffers from less effective shots. If it is potentially game changing in a sanctioned tournament have the organizer place the model. This should only happen if players cannot reach any compromise. Once all enemy modles are clear of the area place the model on the table and revert to normal rules.


In short, base = model except for line of site. Is it perfect? No. In our neck of the woods it is the easiest and fastest way to play. With out giving either side a glaring advantage. This is not chess, some rules require compromise if a grey area exists. Even in ard boys comprise can be achieved quickly and easily. It is however not RAW tight. But on dakka what really is?

Trasvi wrote:Consider a Daemon Prince with large wings. Or even a space marine with an ominously pointing hand. Are enemies allowed to come within 1 inch of his pointy finger? of course they are. You measure to the base. Similarly the Daemon is allowed to move his wings over friendly/enemy models, simply because they are not a real representation of where the daemon is.

Models are considered to occupy the space above their base (paraphrased from pg11). A skimmer vehicle is also considered to occupy the physical space its hull occupies. However, a skimmer does NOT occupy the area below its hull.

Following this, the position of the Valkyrie for movement purposes is determined purely on where its base is, with the obvious restriction that the hull must be able to physically be above the base. Ergo, if you can put the two Valk's next to each other, without their bases overlapping, it is a legal placement.

My only problem with that is if you got the right bases you could do all kinds of cheesy things with the valks, as if they didn't have all the advantages already anyways. Use a tall one and a short one so that you can fly them in tandem practically spooning and then cover half an enemy unit at the end of move? I really do see your point but it seems like a slippery slope and would lead to a lot more people using other bases that are technically legal but dubious at best. It just makes me cringe just a little seeing things that tread that close to the rules. See what I mean?

A model must be used with the base it is supplied with. Pg11 (i think?). That means you must use your 6 inch flight stands for both Valkyries.

As I said before, many strict applications of RAW are not particularly intuitive, so its a good idea to discuss the rules pertaining to Valkyries before you begin. On the other hand, i think this isn't particularly hard to grasp and should be handled in exactly the same way as any other model that has parts sticking out over the base.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:My only problem with that is if you got the right bases you could do all kinds of cheesy things with the valks, as if they didn't have all the advantages already anyways. Use a tall one and a short one so that you can fly them in tandem practically spooning and then cover half an enemy unit at the end of move? I really do see your point but it seems like a slippery slope and would lead to a lot more people using other bases that are technically legal but dubious at best. It just makes me cringe just a little seeing things that tread that close to the rules. See what I mean?

But now you are basing your stance on one rule around another action which the rules already say is not allowed. You use a model on the base it came with, so you shouldn't even be considering what "could" happen if someone re-bases a model and how that leaves something open to exploitation.

I think it is legit, but I'm not much of a 40k player anymore (I was at the WHFB tourney Showcase was running that day).

Basically, if he was 1" away from the other models, then I think he's fine.

I think the rules are very fuzzy here, and due to the extreme size and height of the Valk model, playing it any other way becomes crazy - and then you start seeing people mod their Valks to have short tails and wings, which look stupid, but work for better game play advantages.

Personally I'd say play it the way the TO ruled, but that's more from a practical standpoint rather than pure RAW since as I said before I'm no longer a 40k player.

Yes, the Valk and Vetta are unusual cases as there's no prior model that came close in terms of size and height. The Skimmer rules are from a time when skimmers were less than a model's height off the table, meaning the skimmer couldn't have models under it. Our group have come up with what is hopefully a fairly simple solution, specifically that for all intents and purposes, the Valk/Vetta has no wings or tail with the exception that wing mounted weapons are still measured and LoSed from the wing. Secondly, models wishing to move around in flyer are restricted only by the base, and that if they assault the Valk/Vetta, they assault the base only.

Simply, the Valkyrie has two states - Move/Assault state, and Shooting state. For Move and Assault purposes, the Valkyrie only exists as a base on the ground. For shooting purposes, you can only shoot at the hull and cockpit.

wouldn't it be simplest if valkyries simply followed the rules like any other skimmer?

IE: they can't disembark (absent elevated terrain, or grav-chute insertion), and you measure everything to the hull.

willydstyle wrote:wouldn't it be simplest if valkyries simply followed the rules like any other skimmer?

IE: they can't disembark (absent elevated terrain, or grav-chute insertion), and you measure everything to the hull.

It would, but sadly people just hate playing by the rules it seems

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:wouldn't it be simplest if valkyries simply followed the rules like any other skimmer?

IE: they can't disembark (absent elevated terrain, or grav-chute insertion), and you measure everything to the hull.

It would, but sadly people just hate playing by the rules it seems

I tend to find people prefer to enjoy themselves. And Valkyries have a tendency to cause all sorts of misery if you think to hard about them.

Cheao tactit. 'nuff said. I'm not sure it IS legal, but it certainly IS cheap.

willydstyle wrote:wouldn't it be simplest if valkyries simply followed the rules like any other skimmer?

IE: they can't disembark (absent elevated terrain, or grav-chute insertion), and you measure everything to the hull.

I couldn't have said it better!

That's like saying you can stack Soul Grinders and such on top of each other becuase their legs don't count.