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Odd, that's what I was going to say. I would say we are at an impasse, but since I am clearly right, that cannot be.

insaniak wrote:It doesn't stop one model from being partially above another.
Some players take the view that the 'space occupied by another model' includes the volume of space above the model's base, to an infinite height. This view is not actually backed up by the rules.

Page #11 (Rulebook) - A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model.
Ok, so I should take that as Skimmers hovering within the same space of another Skimmer doesn't apply here. I think I will have to disagree with you on that one. I may have not received an 'A' in physics class but that mandate on page #11 leaves no ambiguity.

Kindly provide a reference to where it states that the 'space occupied by another model' does not include the volume of space above the model's base, to an infinite height.

A page number would be dandy!
Thanks.

I would have waited an eternity for this. It's over, Prime.

RxGhost wrote:Odd, that's what I was going to say. I would say we are at an impasse, but since I am clearly right, that cannot be.

It's only an impasse if you actually address the opposing argument.

Please explain how a rule forbiding a model from being on top of another also forbids a model from being above another. Because, again, they're not the same thing.


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NotThisTime wrote:Kindly provide a reference to where it states that the 'space occupied by another model' does not include the volume of space above the model's base, to an infinite height.

Kindly provide a reference to where it states that 'space occupied by another model' does not include the entire volume of space in the room in which you are playing, this forbidding models from ever moving anywhere?

The rulebook doesn't define 'the space occupied by another model'

We are therefore forced to use the actual meaning of the phrase.

In which case, 'the space occupied by a model' is the space occupied by the model. The space around the model is not occupied by the model. You can tell this by looking at that space, and noting that said space does not, in fact, contain any part of the model.

No U!

insaniak wrote:In which case, 'the space occupied by a model' is the space occupied by the model. The space around the model is not occupied by the model. You can tell this by looking at that space, and noting that said space does not, in fact, contain any part of the model.

Ok, so based on that fact, Skimmers don't really hover then! They just really stay stationary in mid air. That's like trying to say that 'air' doesn't move!

Priceless

Sorry, you've lost me.

I'm missing the connection between models hovering or not and models being physical objects.

NotThisTime wrote:
Kindly provide a reference to where it states that the 'space occupied by another model' does not include the volume of space above the model's base, to an infinite height.

A page number would be dandy!
Thanks.

I would point you at page 82 and 83, regarding moving within Ruins. There is absolutely nothing stating that units occupy an infinite cylinder up or down, nor is there anything that would exempt them from such a rule. That means that in order to stand within the ruins as illustrated on page 82, they would be violating the rule you're citing... if it existed.

Since 5th ed did away with the concept of the infinite cylinder, there are units within the rulebook positioned exactly in the way that you claim is illegal, and there is no reference or exemption stated anywhere to the interpretation that you are citing, I would lean towards the 'space occupied by another model' as being very simply defined as the space contained within the volume of the model and its base, and no further.

What this comes down to is looking at how the model will function in all phases of the game. Take for example the event that the Valk that was up front and on top of all those models is destroyed or immobilized. Once that happens the model comes crashing down on the table. When this happens what do you do with the models that are under the skimmer? There is nothing to indicate that they are moved away from it.

It seems clear to me that the Rule on page 71 relating to the fact that the skimmer cannot end its move on top of any other model (This includes above) so that things do not get complicated once the model is destroyed or immobilized.

Except that skimmers with a glued-on flight stand are specifically allowed within the rules to be left upon their stand when destroyed, representing that their anti grav unit is still operational.

Nothing in the rules requires a model to come 'crashing down' when destroyed.

Lets say for a moment that those stands were not glued on.

sourclams wrote:I would point you at page 82 and 83, regarding moving within Ruins. There is absolutely nothing stating that units occupy an infinite cylinder up or down, nor is there anything that would exempt them from such a rule. That means that in order to stand within the ruins as illustrated on page 82, they would be violating the rule you're citing... if it existed.

Since 5th ed did away with the concept of the infinite cylinder, there are units within the rulebook positioned exactly in the way that you claim is illegal, and there is no reference or exemption stated anywhere to the interpretation that you are citing, I would lean towards the 'space occupied by another model' as being very simply defined as the space contained within the volume of the model and its base, and no further.

Page #82 begins by stating implicitly that 'This section concentrates on Ruins'.

Somehow the rules for Skimmers I fear do not apply here.

Except I couldn't find your infinite cylinder rule under the Skimmer section either, so I had to go looking for it elsewhere. Point me at a page # and I'll check it out.

Lets say for a moment that those stands were not glued on.

Irrelevant. If gluing the stand on gives you advantage, then everyone glues their stands on to get the advantage.

bigtmac68 wrote: The ruling for this tournament was Base=Model for all purposes except LOS. to me that seems very simple and easy to play by. I know a lot of people do not agree, hopefully GW will make something official about this.

At 'ard Boyz, my opponent had forgotten his clear plastic land speeder bases at home. I told him that was very ok with me, just "throw dice and have fun". Then my template scattered JUST outside of his model and he insisted (after I declared it a miss) "Who cares. That's a hit. If I'd have remembered my bases you clearly would have hit." Of course I then failed to even glance, but... I thought it was classy.

sourclams wrote:Except I couldn't find your infinite cylinder rule under the Skimmer section either, so I had to go looking for it elsewhere. Point me at a page # and I'll check it out.

Please refer to the following:

Page #11 (Rulebook) - A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model.

Vendetta / Valkyrie - Fast, Skimmers

Page #71 (Rulebook) - Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

For the final time, these mandates above are very simplistic and leave no ambiguity in terms of what they mean. It is what it is.

To state otherwise is folly. And please remember we are not talking about Ruins here.

NotThisTime wrote:Page #11 (Rulebook) - A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model.

Repeating it won't suddenly change its meaning.

Not being able to move into the space occupied by another model does nothing more than stop you from moving into the space occupied by another model.

Nothing in that rule even remotely suggests that the space around or above the model is considered to be space occupied by the model. It is neither explicitly stated or vaguely hinted. The rule refers solely to the space actually occupied by the model.

Page #71 (Rulebook) - Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

Again, still doesn't mean what you want it to.

'On top of' and 'above' are not the same thing. They're two different, distinct positions.

'On top of' means 'physically sitting on'.
'Above' means 'situated higher'.

They're not freely interchangable.

For the final time, these mandates above are very simplistic and leave no ambiguity in terms of what they mean. It is what it is.

Then why do you keep insisting that they mean something different to what they actually say?

NotThisTime wrote:
For the final time, these mandates above are very simplistic and leave no ambiguity in terms of what they mean. It is what it is.

This phrase does not mean what you think it means.

Likewise I'm still not seeing this infinite cylinder you're referring to. Insisting that it exists isn't going to create it spontaneously.

NotThisTime, may I kindly suggest you go find a go dictionary and look up the meanings of 'on top' and 'above' before you continue your whining. Your continued mewling and refusal to do anything more than repeat the same phrases over and over again are starting to grate on peoples nerves. Either introduce evidence that on top is equal to above and that models take up an infinate space above their bases or concede.

Definition of "On Top Of"

From Dictionary.com

45. on top of,
a. over or upon.
b. in addition to; over and above.
c. close upon; following upon: Gale winds came on top of the floods.
d. in complete control: on top of the problem.

The fact that on top of contains "over" within its definition gives Not this Time's argument more weight than yours.

As for sourclams, you can't always assume that the base is guled on. most of the time this makes for highly inconvenient transport of models. So lets take into consideration the fact that 90% of all skimmers are not glued to their movement bases.

So please tell me what happens in the sutation that I previously mentioned?

Let's keep it civil, Norade. Click on the link to Rule #1 in my sig.

Negativemoney wrote:What this comes down to is looking at how the model will function in all phases of the game. Take for example the event that the Valk that was up front and on top of all those models is destroyed or immobilized. Once that happens the model comes crashing down on the table. When this happens what do you do with the models that are under the skimmer? There is nothing to indicate that they are moved away from it.

I was about to say that!


You have to follow the rules for skimmers and for vehicles.

The fact that the Vendetta model is tall, large, and unwieldy has no bearing on how it can be used.

People get the whole "occupy the area of its base" bit wrong very often. All it means is that you have to move around other model's bases, you can't pass over them. The model is considered to take up the entire volume of the base from the bottom to the top of the model.

None of that even matters for what the original question is. In the photo, pieces of the model that are outside the area of the base are overlapping in the vertical axis. Since none of the pieces being overlapped are in the area between the base and the hull, there is no problem with the "area of its base" rule (never mind that it can be argued that rule doesn't directly apply to skimmers in the first place). Moot point, since it isn't applying no matter what in this photo.

You are certainly allowed to overlap in the vertical axis as long as you maintain the one inch rule for enemy units. This is not an argument based on nothing saying you can't, it is an argument that the function of the game is that you may freely move in three dimensions across, up, and down the table, so long as you stay within the confines of the distance rules. You are allowed to do this by default, so no special instruction is needed.

Finally, the "can't stop on top of" rule in the context of the game and the rule sections it is detailing is telling you nothing more than you may not sit your model physically on another model. If you have not done that, you have complied with the rule.

Assuming no part of either Vendetta is one inch or closer to any of the enemy models (can't say for sure from the photo, but it doesn't look like it), then that is a legal place to sit.

Kaaihn wrote:
You are certainly allowed to overlap in the vertical axis as long as you maintain the one inch rule for enemy units. This is not an argument based on nothing saying you can't, it is an argument that the function of the game is that you may freely move in three dimensions across, up, and down the table, so long as you stay within the confines of the distance rules. You are allowed to do this by default, so no special instruction is needed.

This is the first problem that I have with your argument. Warhammer is a permissive rules set. What that means is that you must have permission to do something otherwise you cannot do it. There is nothing in the rules that allows any model to move in three dimensions apart from the rules listed in the ruins section of the rule book and even then you are restricted to only 3 dimensional movement in ruins. Even movement on hills is considered to be 2 dimensional as you do not need to take into account the vertical distance moved just the horizontal. also the rules specifically restrict the overlapping of models as detailed on page 71 of the rule book as well as on page 11 (both have been quoted numerous times).

Kaaihn wrote:Finally, the "can't stop on top of" rule in the context of the game and the rule sections it is detailing is telling you nothing more than you may not sit your model physically on another model. If you have not done that, you have complied with the rule.

As i have shown in a previous post "on top of" is another way of saying "over" in this case the words are interchangeable and as such even if the model is hovering over another model friendly or otherwise on top of another friendly model. You conclusion here is wrong as it is not consistent with the language that is being used.

BTW what is the bottom armor for a Vendetta?

Negativemoney wrote:Definition of "On Top Of"

From Dictionary.com

45. on top of,
a. over or upon.
b. in addition to; over and above.
c. close upon; following upon: Gale winds came on top of the floods.
d. in complete control: on top of the problem.

The fact that on top of contains "over" within its definition gives Not this Time's argument more weight than yours.

It does, which is inconvenient...

However, it leaves us with a phrase with multiple meanings, one of which (over) causes conflicts eleswhere in the rules, and one of which (upon) does not.

To my mind, the one which doesn't cause conflicts is more likely to be the better one to use.


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Kaaihn wrote:People get the whole "occupy the area of its base" bit wrong very often. All it means is that you have to move around other model's bases, you can't pass over them. The model is considered to take up the entire volume of the base from the bottom to the top of the model.

There is nothing in the rules suggesting that the model occupies the volume of space above its base.

It occupies the area of its base, not the volume of space above it.

It does so because we measure to and from the base, because that's the easiest reference point for measurement.

The model occupies no more space than it actually takes up on the board.

Ok, i'll revisit my view on this.



Take a look at the balrog (sorry, he's the only model I have with wings. Pretend he's a Daemon prince or winged tyrant)
Is he on top of the fire warrior? Looking from above, his wing definitely covers the fire warrior. But do you insist that his wings each make a 5 inch footprint on the board?


Or, in the third image. My kroot is actually over an inch away from the fire warrior. (lets pretend they're different armies). Is the kroot on top of the fire warrior?

The answer to all these questions is no.
The same applies in the Valkyrie situation. Except, instead of being Daemon wings, it is Valkyrie hull. It is above the models, but not on top of it.

As long as the base can be placed flat on the board 1 inch away from enemies, and the model can be physically placed in that position without touching or resting on another model, it is a legal placement.

So here is where we get into a sticky situation. You say that a model does not occupy the space above. I am in 1000% agreement with that statement. however this leaves out something even more important. That is what about the space beneath the model?

this is where the issue comes in. From what I can tell a model occupies all the space from its highest point to the point on the table where its base sits. This does not just include the base it self but the model itself (in the case of a vehicle). This is where I see that problem.

Because of the rule on page 71 that once a skimmer is destroyed or immobilized it is to be removed from its base (if not glued on which is 90% of the time) and placed on the table. if there are models under the vehicle then we have no rules on what happens to them.

So to go by what you said to me:

However, it leaves us with a phrase with multiple meanings, one of which (over) causes conflicts eleswhere in the rules, and one of which (upon) does not.

By not placing a model over another model we don't break any rules or wind up with any conflicts. this is the simplest way to solve the problem.


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Trasvi:

The one problem with you argument is that you forget that on page 71 there is this rule "The Skimmer's Base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting the skimmer..."

That indicates to me that your example is wrong. For non Vehicle models you must keep 1" from base to base. that is what the rules on page 11 indicate.

Negativemoney wrote:So here is where we get into a sticky situation. You say that a model does not occupy the space above. I am in 1000% agreement with that statement. however this leaves out something even more important. That is what about the space beneath the model?

It doesn't occupy that either.

The model occupies the space that it actually fills. The rules make no mention of it occupying anything else.

From what I can tell a model occupies all the space from its highest point to the point on the table where its base sits.

Based on which rule?

Because of the rule on page 71 that once a skimmer is destroyed or immobilized it is to be removed from its base (if not glued on which is 90% of the time) and placed on the table. if there are models under the vehicle then we have no rules on what happens to them.

The rules actually state that the base is removed 'if possible'

If it is impossible to place the vehicle on the table without the base, then removing the base is not possible.

By not placing a model over another model we don't break any rules or wind up with any conflicts. this is the simplest way to solve the problem.

But by ruling that way, you also restrict models from being above other models in Ruins.

ruins are a different story simply because each level has a floor associated with that. Models are not hovering. so in essence in a ruin you are placing models on different planes rather than on top of each other on the same plane.

Based on which rule?

A Skimmer may not end its movement on top of another model (page 71 not verbatim)

That is the rule that I am going by. A skimmer occupies all space below it when it is not moving it is as simple as that.

If it is impossible to place the vehicle on the table without the base, then removing the base is not possible.

the rule only mentions the physical removal of the base. Such as it being glued on. there is no mention of models under ths skimmer. Why you might ask? Because they can't be there.

Negativemoney wrote:ruins are a different story simply because each level has a floor associated with that.

That only makes them a different story if the rules actually make an exception.

Besides, a skimmer on the top level of a ruin is still hovering. Would you argue that it can't be placed there if there are models on the bottom floor?

A Skimmer may not end its movement on top of another model (page 71 not verbatim)

That is the rule that I am going by. A skimmer occupies all space below it when it is not moving it is as simple as that.

Sorry, but how do you get 'the model occupies x amount of space' from 'the model may not be placed on top of another model'?

The two statements are not even remotely related.

the rule only mentions the physical removal of the base.

The rule lists one particular example of why the base can not be removed. It in no way implies that this one example is the only reason that the base can not be removed. It simply says that the base is removed if possible.

Trasvi wrote:Ok, i'll revisit my view on this.



Take a look at the balrog (sorry, he's the only model I have with wings. Pretend he's a Daemon prince or winged tyrant)
Is he on top of the fire warrior? Looking from above, his wing definitely covers the fire warrior. But do you insist that his wings each make a 5 inch footprint on the board?


Or, in the third image. My kroot is actually over an inch away from the fire warrior. (lets pretend they're different armies). Is the kroot on top of the fire warrior?

The answer to all these questions is no.
The same applies in the Valkyrie situation. Except, instead of being Daemon wings, it is Valkyrie hull. It is above the models, but not on top of it.

As long as the base can be placed flat on the board 1 inch away from enemies, and the model can be physically placed in that position without touching or resting on another model, it is a legal placement.

The problem in this example is that none of these models are vehicles or skimmers. It is unimportant if there is overhang because we know that the only space they occupy is the base of the model, an infinite, invisible, cylindrical base that extends to the heavens. Quite simply, a vehicle (yeah, skimmers are those too) take up an amount of space equal to the hull, regardless of its base.

And what are those Balrog wings doing NOT on a Tyrant? Huh!?