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A simple question: Not a rant.

Have the lack of balance and the lack of general fluff killed WFB in general?

Views, Observations?

Fallen Scholar

I think that is a bit premature. The lack of balance only really hurts the tourney crowd. WHFB has always been more causal than 40k. Around my area the game has actually gotten more popular. Also if the hero hammer of previous editions wasn't enough to kill the game off, I doubt that daemons (the issue that is currently ticking people off) is going to do it. The franchise is actually doing nicely. Though the MMORPG didn't take off as much as people hoped, it has grown the brand. 40k is hugely more popular than WHFB, but I doubt that GW is going to dump support of a long running and reasonably popular game. Its not like its a specialty game like battle fleet gothic, or epic.

40k has always and shall forever be the more 'popular' game, the universe is more developed and for want of a better word, 'original,' as Warhammer Fantasy is fairly generic in it's construction.

40k is more accessable, quicker to play, to be fair, damnsight cooler, and will most likely remain that way, even if fantasy became the most tactically sound, balanced and supported game in existence.

Let's face it, the space marinezz is the roxxors!111

That is premature.

The game is unbalanced currently, but it hasn't killed WHFB.


The only really cheese-filth army is Daemons. Vamps and Dark Elves can still be beaten.

@Shamfrit - wow, what a completely non sequitor point.

On Topic:

No, it's not on its way out. While Shamfrit's point that 40k is more popular is correct, WFB still has quite a following, and, really, it's only really the tournament scene that's being really poorly affected by the game imbalance.

Besides, soon enough, there'll be enough Army-creep that we'll have other armies to gripe about :rollseyes:

A 40k's squad is generally smaller , you get a more feel of personal attachment to it when you convert them.

a FB's unit just feels like a "block" even if you convert them ( and have them line up properly atleast ) they still look like a block .

What on earth does non sequitor mean?

Pretty much what notabot187 & Jin said, the imbalance only messes with tournaments so most people don't really care about it or just ask their opponent not to play daemons.

If you're getting into Fantasy with the mindset of, "I'm going to play nothing but Tzeentch Daemons and be a l33t haxor" then don't expect to make any friends and/or learn an appreciation for the game. I've met some people like this and guess what, they're not playing anymore.

I think that 5th edition has drawn a lot of 40k players back into the fold. I say this from the perspective of my group so please take that with a grain of salt. If you will also notice what is currently being done for Fantasy? I think that the game is in a bit of a lull, but when BoC or Pan-fo, or whatever comes out the game will get a healthy shot in the arm.

Fantasy has a fairly extensive background, if one that is ripped off quite heavily from other sources (namely Tolkien, but who doesn't steal from the master).

My favourite fluff (which I referred to in another thread) was the secret battle between Nagash and the skaven, which was pretty original. I also like the expanded Lizardman fluff from the latest book, where the Slann are desperately trying to put everyone back where they should be whilst the skinks muddle through their ambiguous instructions e.g. When the High Elf explorers turn up in Lustria, a Slann takes one look at them and states "They should not be here". The Skinks duly oblige their master by slaughtering the unfortunate High Elves.

So no, I believe that Warhammer fluff is developing nicely and the game (Daemons aside) is more balanced and more rewarding than it's 40K counterpart.

What is this Battle between Nagash and Skaven? I'm quite interested.

I also like the Lizardmen Fluff. I'm sick of Elves being the "Defenders of the World".

The young races should not interfere with the Old One's Plans.

Oh yeah I totally argree with the balance issue and fluff. As much as I love the HH, and Caiphus Cain series it pales in comparison to the rise and fall of Archaon, Gotrek & Felix, and the eternal struggles that continue to this day (in the fluff dept.). Where the payoff for 40k is around the Apoc level, even a standard game of Fantasy has a great way of being memorable.

How long has 7th edition been going on now? It feels like an eternity (for a GW game that is). The transition from 6th to 7th wasn't as dramatic as any of the 40k editions and I'm thankful that the game has been so relatively consistent for the last 9 years.

Cryonicleech wrote:What is this Battle between Nagash and Skaven? I'm quite interested.

I also like the Lizardmen Fluff. I'm sick of Elves being the "Defenders of the World".

The young races should not interfere with the Old One's Plans.

I can't remember the exact ins and outs of it, because I have long since discarded my Undead and Skaven Army books from yester year. However, it was basically thus...

Nagash was sitting on a huge chunk of warpstone and who likes warpstone more than they like cheese? So followed a series of battles where the Skaven kick Nagash out who then returns years later and retaliates. Eventually, the skaven learn that Nagash has a prisoner from foreign lands (which the Tomb Kings book tells us was Alcazzadir) and decided to use him as a pawn. They forged the Fell Blade and used Clan Eshin to steal into Nagash's fortress, unlock Alcazzadir's cell and present him with the deadly weapon. Alcazzadir seized the opportunity for vengeance against his most hated enemy and entered into a mightly duel with Nagash, which the Fell Blade enabled him to win. Nagash was sliced into many pieces which the skaven scattered to the four corners of the globe. The Fell Blade claimed Alcazzadir's sanity and he wandered off, presumably to his death.

In general Warhammer is actually more popular. 40k only beats it out in America.

Warhammer has a large crowd of older people (been around longer), 40k has a larger crowd of younger people (it attracts 12 year olds and isnt as expensive as you don't need to get as many models).

The balance issue isnt nearly as bad as people say it is (deamons are tough but so are other armies and they can be beaten in a tournament scenario by many good armies). The last large tournament in the CA area had no deamons in the top 10 http://www.leadership2.org/?q=node/2. 100+ players, many of them good.

40k has just as many balance issues but since the game tends to play out such that everyone can touch everyone with an anti-tank cannon they tend to feel pain very quickly (very hard to bring that kind of pain to bear in fantasy as shooting doesn't usually do much damage).

Totally irrelevant and I don't know if it's been posted before but...Nagash rules!

Bat Manuel wrote:Totally irrelevant and I don't know if it's been posted before but...Nagash rules!

He is Egyptian?

Nagash drools!



(Also, yes, he's from Khemri.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Nagash drools!



(Also, yes, he's from Khemri.)

Is that a Citadel Mini or a Figure Print of a WoW character?

How long has it been since Nagash was a playable character?

ZF-

Can't remember the exact year, but we have had three Vampire Counts army books since the Undead book (the only publication with rules for Nagash). The 1st VC book heralded a new dawn for undead with the focus on Vampires (obviously) and later Tomb Kings. Necromancers and Liches were slotted into each book as lesser characters.

I've always argued you could do a standalone Warhammer Armies: Necromancers that could herald the return of Nagash to the game.

I heard a rumor about such an army where the chars were the necromancers/litches. No combat potential but more raising potential than vampires...

Could be interesting
or incredibly annoying

I think the key word for a potential Warhammer Armies: Necromancers would be "tarpit". Less of an emphasis on hitting power as per VC and TK, more of an emphasis on never ending hordes of skeletons/zombies that just won't go away.

You'd also have flesh golems (like Frakenstein's Monster) and other undead constructs.

You're right though, it has the potential to be an incredibly annoying army to play against.

Back on topic.

WHFB is massively more popular than 40k in the tourney scene here in Oz, however we have peer reviewed army list reviews for toiurney points and sportsmanship points so never end up with the slowed power game that has been the UKGTs for several years.

I'm becoming more and more annoyed at the return of herohammer and the really, really lame combos, magic and special rules, and undercosting in general in the VC, DE and Daemon books.

But WHFB is still greatly popular. I'm off to play a game at a club that I haven't been to before on Friday night with no less than 60 WHFB players in attendance, and it is one of several in the city...

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
I'm becoming more and more annoyed at the return of herohammer and the really, really lame combos, magic and special rules, and undercosting in general in the VC, DE and Daemon books.

Who can say what the state of fantasy is in general, but all I know is that I'm slowly burning out, and a lot of that has to do with the above, and the fact that I really dislike playing with my two armies (Skaven, Ogres). Playing, as in, losing a lot because I can't roll dice and that's all both armies have, a lot of dependence on dice, with no rerolls, regens, wards everywhere, raising, etc.

Here's hoping I can ever get my new WoC army painted and on the table before I give up on GeeDub entirely, though I imagine when I get close to that point the new Skaven book might finally be out and I can join the rock and rollers club ...

- Salvage

Orkeosaurus wrote:Nagash drools!

I'd be frankly terrified of anyone willing to go into battle dressed like that...


Also, want to second the comments that the popularity of 40k vs. Fantasy varies dramatically by location. I don't think WHFB is in it's final days by any stretch of the imagination. Tournaments have adapted somewhat to the lists from what I've been able to read. I think one of the coolest things I've seen in the hobby since I first got involved back in '92 is the Indy GTs. You can encounter quite a variety of rulesets, comp, etc and pick which suits your playstyle. So there will be people to adapt as long as the rules as a core don't get ridiculously broken, and as long as the miniatures stay cool.

RZ

Now that I've had some time to think about it, maybe they are prepping an 8th Edition (maybe even the next big campaign or something). It would explain the extended amount of time between the next Army Book release, the lack of new releases (outside of the Empire), and a kind of hush-hush attitude.

Already? When did 7th come out?

I'd like to say the "But some armies haven't even been updated yet!" argument, but we all know there's precedence for that

I'm just throwing that out there. I have read no rumors, have talked to no Fantasy players (outside of Dakka) for months, and I honestly don't believe that it could happen, BUT you never know. Maybe GW has wized up a bit and realized that the Fantasy Power Creep has been too sharp with the last few army book releases and they need to shuffle their cards up a bit.

I think what is really throwing me off is that there is no Advanced Orders for Fantasy. I mean they at least could be putting up a piece of $15 terrain. Outside of the Empire releases not too long ago there is too much quiet for my comfort. I just think that we are either going to be blitzed by 2 army books in a row (thus skipping a 40k codex release), or something bigger is in the works.

In regards to releases the only thing I can see on the horizon is the Beasts of Chaos book and Skaven book. I know it has been a while, but I could see a WE or Brettonian re-release as well (Brettonians are still viable, but i have a friend who is a very competant WE player and he won't touch them now). I don't buy the new Fantasy race thing (only 40k needs anybody new).

Now please don't take me as a pesimist (sp). I think Fantasy is as strong as it has been in years, it's just that I think they are working on something big. If I'm wrong though just discount my writings as a madman (you probably should just to be safe ).


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What can we get from this? Anything at all? Not trying out my Tin-Foil hat, but maybe they are going to work on a Zombie-Pirate re-release?

Oh christ, I hope they don't make an entire army of undead Pirates...

Oh yes and Orlando Bloom will pose in the nude for the cover and every model will cause terror, have eternal hatred, and get black powdered rifles for free. Mwhaaa, mmwwhhaaaa...

Vampire Coasts V2.0: Rise of the In Mouth Throw-Up.