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Hey all,

I played a quick (VERY QUICK!) 1000pt game last night vs Space Marines. I lost the toss to go first, and on the first turn, my opponent had dropped off a scout squad with a power fist sgt. from a Land Speeder Storm, a drop pod filled with Vanguard, and a terminator Librarian teleported himself and 5 thunderhammer/stormshield termies into my lines. He then proceeded to wipe out my company command squad, destroyed my LRBT, my Medusa, and immobilized my veteran squad's Chimera...first turn...before I even got to move anything....lame.

Any ideas on how to not let this happen again? besides getting lucky and going first?

How did he manage to fit all of that into his list at a 1000pts? Did he charge turn 1 with the Termies, vanguard, etc? Some of it sounds a little fishy, but next time I would say keep your tanks back and fill up your deployment zone with your troops as far apart as you can get them.

Also, unless I'm missing something, he has to roll reserves (and doesn't get to until turn 2) to teleport the Termie's onto the table.

I didn't check his list to make sure it was legal, it was a friendly game. In 1000 pts he had a terminator armored Librarian, with teleport and some vehicle auto-glance ability (which apparently can both be used in the same turn), 5 termies with thunderhammer/stormshields, 5 scouts with shoties and a powerfist in a landspeeder storm, a drop pod with 5 vanguard (with 3 combi-meltas), 5 more scouts, mixed close combat/bolters and a HB, and a Tac squad with a missile launcher.

There were 5 objectives, and the only troops I had were my two vet squads mounted in chimeras (one with meltas, the other with flamers)...I had the command squad with 3 plasma, a LRBT, a Medusa with standard shells, and 5 ogryn in another chimera. I know I should have had more infantry, and shouldn't have gone with 5 ogryn in 1000pts, but I didn't have that many models prepped, and in this case...I don't think it would have mattered that much.


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madmen wrote:Also, unless I'm missing something, he has to roll reserves (and doesn't get to until turn 2) to teleport the Termie's onto the table.

That's the thing, they were already on the table...the termies were teleported by his librarian's psychic power. And the scouting Land Speeder Storm had a teleport homer and is open topped to allow the scouts to assault. The termies couldnt assault after the teleport, but I wasnt expecting a terminator CC squad to be charging me turn 2....the librarian immobilized my vet chimera with his "other" psychic power turn 1. The Vanguard in the DP melted my Medusa, and his scout sgt's power fist crumped my LRBT...all in turn 1 before I got to even move anything This is one of the problems I have with 40K...the "You go, I go" thing where you set there first turn and watch all your stuff fall apart before you get to use it... games like AT-43 where you alternate unit activation tend to mitigate this imbalance of power, and reduces the colossal advantage of getting to go first.

Scout sarges can purchase a teleport homer that allows termies to teleport within 6 but this is probably not what he had since the power Gate of infinity is not a teleport its deep strike.

The drop pod probably had a beacon that allows units to deep strike within 6 inches of it thats probably what he used for the libi's gate of infinity.

Yeah the list looks legit, just looks like you got served.

Don't give up though, move some points around in your list and write out what each unit does each game. If it doesn't seem to be capable of earning its points back, then it's time for them to serve some time on the sidelines.

You need troops. I have suffered embarrassing defeats because of a lack of troops and troop placement. Those Ogryns look pretty but in a thousand point game they really don't cut it, especially when you lack troops. If you didn't have them ready you were pretty screwed from the beginning.

Try holding your russ in reserve so that when it comes on you can gun it forward and blow apart the first and closest waiting anti-tank. The movement will mess up any assault based anti tank. Always remember that you need to surround tanks with troops, especially artillery tanks as they can't move and fire. Get more troops and then look into fun things like ogryns

Take an Inquisiter wl 2 mystics and set them within 12 inches of your LRBT and take a free shot at everything he deep strikes in on the the board within 4d6 inches.

It seems to me your opponent has a very very hard list at 1000pts. You have a fun list. The two do not match up very well. You will probably get beat almost every time vs his list. It seems you are playing for different reasons. You for fun, him to win at all costs. If you want to beat him listen to the above posts. Mystics are your best defense vs his list. Also a good amount of plasma will help vs him. Marbo will give the libby and termies nightmares with his come in anywhere and toss a demo charge on them. A bane wolf could help. I agree keep the russ in reserve and hit him back. Stay in cover, go to ground and use get back in the fight for survivability. The scouts charging will be hard to deal with unless you get first turn so once again keep your important bits in the back or off the table. Good luck.

Sha1emade wrote:It seems to me your opponent has a very very hard list at 1000pts. You have a fun list. The two do not match up very well. You will probably get beat almost every time vs his list. It seems you are playing for different reasons. You for fun, him to win at all costs. If you want to beat him listen to the above posts. Mystics are your best defense vs his list. Also a good amount of plasma will help vs him. Marbo will give the libby and termies nightmares with his come in anywhere and toss a demo charge on them. A bane wolf could help. I agree keep the russ in reserve and hit him back. Stay in cover, go to ground and use get back in the fight for survivability. The scouts charging will be hard to deal with unless you get first turn so once again keep your important bits in the back or off the table. Good luck.

Lots of good advice guys! Yeah, we tend to get a few power gamers in our group...and I just like to play for fun....although its not much fun loosing 'every game' ( I recently took a break from playing Tau...only have 2 broadsides) I'm currently painting my first Valkyrie, and assembling my second (these are sweet models)...third one is still in the box, and likely wont get touched for my 1000pt list. What's the best way to use these? I'm seeing Alpha strike and outflank tactics being discussed...any advice on stuff that has good synergy with each tactic?

Just look through the older threads. About 2-4 weeks ago the Valk/IG discussion was pretty heavy. Also look at old List threads. Should be some good info.

A quicker answer would be to load it out as a Vendetta, load with melta-vets, ...?, Profit FTW.

drop the ogryns. tell me whats better 5 ogryns in a chimera or 4 inf squads with a gl/autocannon combo??

exact same points, but the latter will do ALOT more.

yes, ogryns in 1000 pts is iffy..better to have rough riders in reserve to deal with a lot of the stuff, and you need squads to screen off probably teleport/drop points....

and meltas/plasmas or multiple flamer spam also helps..

a while ago i played vs a SM guy (1250 pts) with 10 assault termies (in 2 squads), a librarian, and 3 full tacs of marines...KP game, dawn of war...

And I beat him (5-1) by playing a semi mech list (1 platoon footslogger, 5 chimeras (1 squad, 1 vet, 2 PBS, 1 ccs)......since it was dawn of war I only had 2 IG squads on the table plus the chimera of the CCS, and he teleported a full tac in front of me and rapid fired...so I went to ground and got lucky with cover saves and lost only 1 man....so the next turn my mech component came in and melta/flamer spammed them ALL to death....and in the succeeding turns my mech component moved forward and denied viable landing points for the assault termie marines....

Really, it is zone denial, and making sure that after doing that you have elements to hit back hard to those who came in close to your firing line..always remember that you have the option to go to ground, and VERY IMPORTANT, that you do NOT need to deploy everything at the start, you CAN start in reserve..and this defeats the purpose of his teleporting/drop pod stuff since this time you get to react to where he comes in and hammer him....and he gets iffy and deploys in the middle you have already won since it will take him some time to move towards your line...

Yeap, drop the Ogryns and throw in a bunch of guardsmen.

His Librarian must be an Epistolary to use two powers in a turn, and apparently his powers of choice are Gate of Infinity (24" deep strike, scatter can be negated by a Locator Beacon), and Machine Curse, which is a 24"(?) shooting power that causes an automatic glance against a vehicle.

I use this same config, but with regular Terminators with CML. Rear armor shots ahoy!

Also, it sounds like he had Sternguard, not Vanguard. Sternguard are the shooty ones that take combi-meltas, Vanguard are the super expensive jump pack assault troops than can assault on the deep-strike turn.

I'd agree that you need bodies on the field.

Don't forget that even though everyone loves Mech, it gets less efficient in smaller point games. Infantry by the ton can still win with a large number of heavy weapons.

Maybe try some Stormtroopers with those lovely AP3 Hellguns.

what you need is a deamonhunter inquisitor with 2 mystics + demolisher. keep the inquisitor right behind it in the center of your gunline. when a unit deep strikes with in 4D6 of the inquisitor, a unit within 6' of him (the demolisher) gets a "free shot at it. death to deep striking!!!!!!!!!!!!

My only main opponent is a Space Marine player, so my whole list is geared towards anti-MEQ.

-Well it's still in discussions, but I'd run a squad or two of 5 stormtroopers, and keep them next to a PCS or a CCS; they're still lasguns,
so FRFSRF wipes out marines, sternguard, etc. FAST.

-For the Valkyrie/Vendetta, I run them stock plus a the heavy bolter sponsons, the AP3 Hellstrike Missiles wipe out Tac squads, Assault squads, etc.

-Ogryns are not good for lower point games, but for 1500+ points, I run a 5 man squad as a speedbump. Anything Drop Podding
into your lines to get your tanks are hit by 15 ripper gun shots, then 21 attacks on the charge. I've had them tie up Sternguard for
three turns before they and an infantry squad wiped them out.

-AP3 or better artillery is key! I run a Medusa (AP2), Basilisk (AP3), and a Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon (AP 3). I'm also debating on the
Bane Wolf. AP3 and wounds on a 2+ will wipe out a squad QUICK. Plus put the hull-mounted multi-melta, and expect a very versitile tank.

Hope I've helped a bit, good luck, let the Hammer of the Emperor reign!

That list is generally fine, as it mimicks the most fashionable current build at a small scale (excepting those Ogryns, though they can be used to protect a tank from being charged. I don't think Marines will get through them in one turn). Still, more bodies are probably preferrable. Other than that, you could simply stick everything in reserve. I'm on the fence about including an Astropath, as you will want that Medusa to appear after the Termis but depending on who goes first and what he puts on the table, you could set it up or keep it in reserve according to the situation.

deadly chicken wrote:drop the ogryns. tell me whats better 5 ogryns in a chimera or 4 inf squads with a gl/autocannon combo??

exact same points, but the latter will do ALOT more.

Not necessarily against Terminators upon your doorstep on turn 1 though.

I am quite partial to storm troopers when facing SM, assuming you can get them close enough (9" hotshots leave you open to assaults I find)

Granesh wrote:the AP3 Hellstrike Missiles wipe out Tac squads, Assault squads, etc.

Eh, a Hellstrike is a one-shot ordnance weapon. With the Valkyrie's BS3 and S8 vs T4, you'd have like a 42% chance of killing 1 (one) Space Marine. And because it is ordnance you can only fire one missile and nothing else that turn. Not exactly what I'd call wiping out. Heck, even the Valkyrie's Multi-laser is twice as effective at killing marines, was it not that a Hellstrike could cause instant death to the odd multiwound model.

Now if you're thinking about the Hellfury missile the Vendetta can take, those are only one shot S4 AP5 Large Blast, but why anyone would take those over the 2 TL Lascannons is beyond me, especially since you can get MRPs on a Valkyrie for the same cost, which aren't one-shots.

Granesh wrote:the AP3 Hellstrike Missiles wipe out Tac squads, Assault squads, etc.

Yeah, sadly they're only Ordinance, not Ordinance Blast weapons. So, S8+best of 2d6 pen, but still single shot, single target missiles. Redemption's got it right with valks/vends, go valk w/ rocket pods, or triple TL-las vendettas depending on if you need mobility+anti-infantry, or cruel amounts of anti-light vehicle.

Granesh wrote: they're still lasguns,
so FRFSRF wipes out marines, sternguard, etc.

careful, this one's still hotly contested. Personally, my vote is that they're not, they simply have the name of another gun in them. Besides, even for the points 5 stormtroopers don't really get much done. Let's look at 5 stormtroopers with 2 plasmaguns:

-costs 115 points
-throws 6 hotshots, 4 plasma shots
-plasma kills 2.22 marines out of cover
-hotshot kills another 1.33

I've got bad news; against a tac squad, less than twice the price? Even if they lose the first round of fire AND are caught out of cover (ideal circumstances) will lose 3 or 4 models (all of them bolter-bearers), then rapid fire or assault right over our poor stormtroopers. For the record, if FRFSRF DOES work on hotshot lasguns, that bumps the kills up to just over 4 w/ plasmaguns, or just over 3 without. The S3 just isn't enough imo.

I'd rather throw another 35 points in and grab a vet squad in chimera; get a 3rd plasmagun (making 3.333 dead from plasma alone), as well as more than double the lasguns as well as a big mean heavy flamer. Catch those poor bunched up deep striking marines and you're looking at ~2 kills on power armour from 1 little HF.

I think IG's best tool is what it's always been. Nothin' fancy, just guardsmen, battle tanks, and artillery; the basics. Granted, the fancy stuff is still vital, and needs to be brought to take care of sticky situations, but vet squads, infantry platoons, russes and artillery pieces are going to do most of your heavy lifting.

Granesh wrote:My only main opponent is a Space Marine player, so my whole list is geared towards anti-MEQ.

-Well it's still in discussions, but I'd run a squad or two of 5 stormtroopers, and keep them next to a PCS or a CCS; they're still lasguns,
so FRFSRF wipes out marines, sternguard, etc. FAST.

Hot-shot Lasguns are NOT lasguns, they are 2 separate weapons with 2 separate profiles so FRFSRF does not work with hot-shot lasguns.

Granesh wrote:
-For the Valkyrie/Vendetta, I run them stock plus a the heavy bolter sponsons, the AP3 Hellstrike Missiles wipe out Tac squads, Assault squads, etc.

Hellstrike missiles aren't blast, they are a single shot ordnance weapon (so no other weapon can fire at the same time), that has to be fired with the Valkyries amazing BS of 3... I really doubt that they wipe out anything...

Fango wrote:...and a terminator Librarian teleported himself and 5 thunderhammer/stormshield termies into my lines. He then proceeded to wipe out my company command squad, destroyed my LRBT, my Medusa, and immobilized my veteran squad's Chimera...first turn...before I even got to move anything....lame.

His librarian used Gate of Infinity to teleport himself and a Terminator Assault Squad across the board. But remember that Gate of Infinity places models using the Deep Strike rules. This means that the models cannot charge in the Assault phase, only shoot. And a Terminator Assault Squad has no ranged weapons.

The Angry Commissar wrote:what you need is a deamonhunter inquisitor with 2 mystics + demolisher. keep the inquisitor right behind it in the center of your gunline. when a unit deep strikes with in 4D6 of the inquisitor, a unit within 6' of him (the demolisher) gets a "free shot at it. death to deep striking!!!!!!!!!!!!

imperial guard don't have inquisitor's

Granesh wrote:
the AP3 Hellstrike Missiles wipe out Tac squads, Assault squads, etc.

i think you mean hellfury.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Not necessarily against Terminators upon your doorstep on turn 1 though.

ok 2 squads of vet's with plasma's. only 20 points more.


personally my recommendation depends on your playing style. tanks are effective but as a marine player i know we are not short of AT weaponry.
artillery is just too fragile. at the back of a large-ish board by the time the enemy is in range all your frontline squads are dead or about to die. if you move it forward or the board is too small any deep strikers or power fist guy's will mash it up quickly. armor value 12 is not good. esspecially with the abundancy of melta weapons, missile launchers and lascannons any most space marine lists.

deadly chicken: Don't try to sound informed when you are not. Imperial Guard can use inquisitors as per the Daemonhunter Codex entry "Using Daemonhunters as Allies" (Pg 21), thus entitling them to all the inquisitor's retinue as well. It is a perfectly valid tactical suggestion, and you seem to be doing nothing more than trolling.

Troops Troops Troops! Numbers is one of the strength that is awarded to IG, do not run one tank when you can run nine.

Do not underestimate conscripts with the without numbers and Iron hand Strakken... A Mob of Conscripts with furious charge equates to models with S4 I4 A2... not a fun sight to be charged against... nor is it fun charging S3 I3 A2.

The Conscripts serve as great cannon fodder if paired with Incoming! (nothing says durable like a 2+ cover save) The conscripts can also provide a buffer that the boys in blue must get through... Lucky for you the SM armor save is 3+ so if you offer them a 4+ cover save from FRFSRF through you conscripts, they will say no thanks... Take advantage of that...

As for the storm troopers... I like the Idea of S3 AP 3 rapid firing lasguns, but at a little less than the price of a SM I would rather have three times as many guardsman only because you it absorbs bolterfire that much better, and is much more threatening to small assault units such as terminators or assault marines

10 Storm Trooper: 20 shots, 13.33 hit 4.44 wound
FRFSRF:30 shots, 20 hit, 6 wound (6 dead marines)

30 Guardsman: 60 shots, 30 hit, 10 wound 7 save
FRFSRF:90 shots, 45 wound, 15 wound 10 save (5 Dead marines)

QuietOrkmi wrote:
10 Storm Trooper: 20 shots, 13.33 hit 4.44 wound
FRFSRF:30 shots, 20 hit, 6 wound (6 dead marines)

Again, you can not use FRFSRF with Storm troopers since they don't use lasguns.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:deadly chicken: Don't try to sound informed when you are not. Imperial Guard can use inquisitors as per the Daemonhunter Codex entry "Using Daemonhunters as Allies" (Pg 21), thus entitling them to all the inquisitor's retinue as well. It is a perfectly valid tactical suggestion, and you seem to be doing nothing more than trolling.

lol. i am well informed. just not compared to you. first: what's trolling? second: when taking allies don't you also have to take at least 1 hq and troop's choice from the army list?

deadly chicken wrote:
ok 2 squads of vet's with plasma's. only 20 points more.

Those were Assault Terminators. Your Vets will shoot 12 plasma shots, kill 2.2, and then die. 5 Ogryns will probably/perhaps kill one with shooting, and 1-2 on the charge - and in all likelihood not lose a single model (2.5 wounds and one can go on the Bone'ead). They will then serve to hold those Assault Terminators in place for the rest of the game.

Alternatively, the plasma Vets could wreck the rest of the list - Scouts, Landspeeders, Termi Libby, Vanguard all would simply vanish under there concentrated fire, so I'm not saying they're a bad choice. They'd also be better when they get more turns to shoot of course. All of this notwithstanding, I'd rather neutralize the Termis than counting on getting enough shots in to drop them before the damage becomes unbearable.

artillery is just too fragile. at the back of a large-ish board by the time the enemy is in range all your frontline squads are dead or about to die. if you move it forward or the board is too small any deep strikers or power fist guy's will mash it up quickly. armor value 12 is not good. esspecially with the abundancy of melta weapons, missile launchers and lascannons any most space marine lists.

Hu? With most artillery, the enemy will be in range on turn 1. What do you mean "by the time he is in range"? It's easily defended against simple meltaguns with a screen, at least for one turn, which might be all that is needed.

QuietOrkmi wrote:
10 Storm Trooper: 20 shots, 13.33 hit 4.44 wound
FRFSRF:30 shots, 20 hit, 6 wound (6 dead marines)

Storm Troopers do not carry lasguns, and cannot benefit from that order.

30 Guardsman: 60 shots, 30 hit, 10 wound 7 save
FRFSRF:90 shots, 45 wound, 15 wound 10 save (5 Dead marines)

30 Guardsmen do not get that many shots. 30 Guardsmen (with a heavy weapon) get 18 shots at long range, 39 at 12" (including 3 laspistols from the sergeants), and 57 18 x 3 + 3) at short range under orders (+9 if the heavy weapon entity choses to fire in lasgun mode).

deadly chicken wrote:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:deadly chicken: Don't try to sound informed when you are not. Imperial Guard can use inquisitors as per the Daemonhunter Codex entry "Using Daemonhunters as Allies" (Pg 21), thus entitling them to all the inquisitor's retinue as well. It is a perfectly valid tactical suggestion, and you seem to be doing nothing more than trolling.

lol. i am well informed. just not compared to you. first: what's trolling? second: when taking allies don't you also have to take at least 1 hq and troop's choice from the army list?

for allies, the only requirement is that the player take 1 HQ and 2 troops from the parent army. So since he is an IG player, this is easily fulfilled. He then has the option to take 0-1 hq, 0-1 elite, 0-2 troops, 0-1(I think) FA from the allied army..there is no requirement to take an HQ and troops choice from a daemonhunter army. To get mystics, one can pick the inquisitor from the elites slot plus 2 mystic henchment, dirtcheap at 32 pts....


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armor 12 spam works well..in fact, a mechvet list is essentially an armor 12 spam list...

Artillery works VERY well....but you need to know how to use them..if you use them like tanks, well, they die..if you cannot tell when you have to move them, they die....if you do not protect them with infantry, terrain or other screens, they die....

And in many cases they WILL still die, but hopefully at a time when they have done more than they are worth!!!