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Title says it all.

Ignore armour saves...there are also some special ones that have special rules.

Like the rod of torment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait. What about physic powers?

If the user of a force weapon still has a pyschic power left that turn, they may use their force weapon to inflict instant death on a model that has suffered an unsaved wound from the force weapon that turn. As with all psychic powers the psycher using the force weapon must pass a psychic test in order to use said ability. They also ignore armour saves, so unless something has an invulnerable save, theres a good chance a force weapon will kill it outright. I'm just saying this from memory right now. lemme check my rulebook.

Page 50 in the BRB

"roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable savings throw the victim might have. The psycher may then take a psychic test to use the weapons power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules apply for using psychic powers (one per turn). If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness."

Hope that helps

Edit: Darn Spartan beat me

yep. i seem to have remembered correctlyy. in addition: Librarians seem to have quite the advantage against MCs that way ^_^

spartanghost wrote:yep. i seem to have remembered correctlyy. in addition: Librarians seem to have quite the advantage against MCs that way ^_^

But TMCs are immune against instant death within synapse range, right?

Havent had much luck with my librarians force weapons, against 'nids everything seems immune vs instant death. And he doesn't last long in cc.

Remember there is a difference between "inflicting Instant Death" and "Killing outright".

Acts as a power weapon...Until your opponent fails their save. If your opponent has failed a save, then you can use a psycic power to make it as if that weapon inflicted instant death. (It does say Instant Death, not Kills Outright)

A good start is to buy the rule book and read it rather than asking for the specific rule here, which is against the CoC i think.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Acts as a power weapon...Until your opponent fails their save. If your opponent has failed a save, then you can use a psycic power to make it as if that weapon inflicted instant death. (It does say Instant Death, not Kills Outright)

The demon hunter codex and which hunter codex both specify 'slain outright' rather than causing instant death, so dont follow the normal rules for force weapons and so ignore things that are normally immune to instant death.

True Regwon (for WH at least), but I assumed we were talking about force weapons in general. The kind of force weapons you refer to are restricted to codexes. (Also, wording between "Instant Death" and "Slain Outright" is similar enough to lead to a viable argument)

Nemesis Force Weapons are a big improvement over normal ones. Because they're designed to fight Daemons (who are immune to Instant Death, as caused by regular Force Weapons), they instead 'slay outright' which is similar to 'removed from play', as if the target were hit by a S12 Shokk Attack Gun.

Emperors Faithful wrote:True Regwon (for WH at least), but I assumed we were talking about force weapons in general. The kind of force weapons you refer to are restricted to codexes. (Also, wording between "Instant Death" and "Slain Outright" is similar enough to lead to a viable argument)

It is not a logical argument.

"Instant Death" is a defined rule in the game. "Slain outright" is not. Assuming that one equals the other is not logically sound.

The fact is, there are some legacy Force Weapon rules in older codexes that simply remove models from the table without inflicting instant death. These Force Weapons, until the codexes are updated or GW erratas their rules, are simply better than the version in the current rulebook.

@yakface: I was simply saying that it could easily be interpereted as such by less "knowledgable" (or rule-crazies) players.

@Cheesy: Like a vortex grenade?

I have a question. Is the "available psychic power" bit per player turn or complete turn? Can a Librarian use all their psychic powers on its players turn, get assaulted by me, and then use more powers on my turn as its a "new turn"?

Just a little confused about which things carry over into the opponents turn and which reset is all.

As described on page 9 of the rulebook, unless the rules state "game turn" then any mention of the word "turn" by itself refers to a player turn.

Nice! Grey Knights suddenly sound a heck of alot better! I might look inot getting some...

On the same topic...
If a unit has a special save against psyker powers (A Black TEmplar unit under the Vow : Abhor the witch, destroy the witch), do you get to make a save against that Instant Death power from the Force Weapon wielder?.

I know Adepta Sororitas units get that same save and are immune to Force Weapon special abilities, but it specifically says so. Codex Black Templar doesn't say anything about Force Weapons, however (at least not that I can see).

InquisitorBob wrote:On the same topic...
If a unit has a special save against psyker powers (A Black TEmplar unit under the Vow : Abhor the witch, destroy the witch), do you get to make a save against that Instant Death power from the Force Weapon wielder?.

I know Adepta Sororitas units get that same save and are immune to Force Weapon special abilities, but it specifically says so. Codex Black Templar doesn't say anything about Force Weapons, however (at least not that I can see).

I believe every instance of the Force Weapon rules still in the game say that they follow the normal rules for psychic powers and that no other psychic ability may be used in the same turn.

To me, that clearly indicates that they are indeed considered a psychic power that could be defended against by anything which protects against psychic powers.

If you play RAW out of the DH/WH codex, they kill reguardless of instant death immunity.

If you play it RAI, It's obvious that "Kill Outright" is the same as "Instant Death" thus if the opponent has instant death immunity it only takes 1 wound instead of being instant deathed.

This is one of the situations where I believe RAI is needed, because RAW can leave loopholes that can be exploited in the rules.

yakface wrote:

InquisitorBob wrote:On the same topic...
If a unit has a special save against psyker powers (A Black TEmplar unit under the Vow : Abhor the witch, destroy the witch), do you get to make a save against that Instant Death power from the Force Weapon wielder?.

I know Adepta Sororitas units get that same save and are immune to Force Weapon special abilities, but it specifically says so. Codex Black Templar doesn't say anything about Force Weapons, however (at least not that I can see).

I believe every instance of the Force Weapon rules still in the game say that they follow the normal rules for psychic powers and that no other psychic ability may be used in the same turn.

To me, that clearly indicates that they are indeed considered a psychic power that could be defended against by anything which protects against psychic powers.

I agree entirely.
The problem is, that rule only protects the unit if the unit itself is the target. Is the Force Weapon the target or is it the tool?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:If you play RAW out of the DH/WH codex, they kill reguardless of instant death immunity.

If you play it RAI, It's obvious that "Kill Outright" is the same as "Instant Death" thus if the opponent has instant death immunity it only takes 1 wound instead of being instant deathed.

This is one of the situations where I believe RAI is needed, because RAW can leave loopholes that can be exploited in the rules.

WH codex specifically says to treat Force Weapons as Power Weapons instead when used against a model with the Adepta Sororitas rule, however.

He meant in regards to the wording of "Instan Deff" vs "Kill Outright" and personally, I agree with him.

Kreedos wrote:If you play RAW out of the DH/WH codex, they kill reguardless of instant death immunity.

If you play it RAI, It's obvious that "Kill Outright" is the same as "Instant Death" thus if the opponent has instant death immunity it only takes 1 wound instead of being instant deathed.

This is one of the situations where I believe RAI is needed, because RAW can leave loopholes that can be exploited in the rules.

Why do you assume that the intention is for a force weapon to behave the same as "Instant Death"? Instant Death was a defined rule in 3rd edition when they wrote these codexes, and other codexes (like the Eldar Wraithcannon) had weapons that inflicted "Instant Death". As far as I'm concerned all signs point to the fact that when GW wrote the original force weapon rules in 3rd edition they didn't want them to technically cause "Instant Death" and then at some point they changed their mind and switched it up so that now they do.

At this point, only the two Inquisitorial codexes still have these legacy force weapon rules in effect (at least I think so), and I don't think its so bad having Inquisitors (and Grey Knights) having a slightly more potent version of the weapon. . .at least until they update those codexes.

InquisitorBob wrote:
The problem is, that rule only protects the unit if the unit itself is the target. Is the Force Weapon the target or is it the tool?

Again, this comes back to what exactly within the area effect of a psychic power means.

In this particular case a model (which is part of the unit) is directly affected by the Force Weapon attack (psy power) and therefore IMHO they would get to attempt their vow nullification.

That makes sense, thanks.