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Markerlight counters can be used to reduce and even negate a cover save.

Example:
unit A has a cover save of a 4+, 3 markerlight counters are used to negate the cover save

Seeing how markerlight counters are used up before unit A has been fired upon, can markerlights be used to completely disregard "going to ground" rule that allows you to get a +1 to cover save, meaning if you have no cover save you then get a 6+ cover save.

To be a bit more clear, take the example above...can you use 4 markerlight counters to negate the cover save and the +1 "going to ground" rule?

Remember, going to ground is declared after markerlights are used and roll to wounds are done.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'm like 99% sure that you can use going to ground against template weapons....am I right?

yes.

because they are in 4+ cover, then they are also "gone to ground" so they get 3+ cover, the Tau player would need to use 4 lights to negate all the cover. It all depends on when the "go to ground" option is used as to how many Markerlights the Tau would need want to use.

psf3077 wrote:yes.

because they are in 4+ cover, then they are also "gone to ground" so they get 3+ cover, the Tau player would need to use 4 lights to negate all the cover. It all depends on when the "go to ground" option is used as to how many Markerlights the Tau would need want to use.

This is where I disagree.

How can you predict a unit is going to ground?

The markerlight counters are used before roll to hits and going to ground during saves.

So example....unit has 4+ cover save (3 markerlights can be used to negate it) if you use a 4th markerlight that would make your cover save a -1 Which is Impossible by the way, so the 4th counter doesn't even matter. The rule for going to ground gives you a +1 to cover save, since the 3 markerlight counters were used to negate the originial cover save and the 4th counter doesn't matter because you can't have a negative 1 cover save, you Now Have a 6+ cover save.

By the way, are cover saves allowed against Markerlights? saves don't happen beecause there's no wounds, but it would seem to me that being in cover should make it easier to avoid Markerlights.

spartanghost wrote:By the way, are cover saves allowed against Markerlights? saves don't happen beecause there's no wounds, but it would seem to me that being in cover should make it easier to avoid Markerlights.

I'm not asking against markerlights.

Saves can't be used against markerlights.

I am talking about a squad using the counters to reduce the cover save of enemy unit, and then firing upon that enemy unit.

I only think you could do that if you are able to use more markerlights than necessary, and reduce their cover save to "8+". (In which case they could just choose not to go to the ground instead.)

Regardless, I don't think a 6+ save is going to do much.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I only think you could do that if you are able to use more markerlights than necessary, and reduce their cover save to "8+". (In which case they could just choose not to go to the ground instead.)

Regardless, I don't think a 6+ save is going to do much.

See this is where GW sucks when it comes to completing rules.

In the tau 5th ed FAQ, it says it can be used to completely negate an existing cover save. Like I was saying, that's fine and dandy...but going to ground gives you a +1 so that would make it a 6+ c save.

It's like flamers ignore cover saves but yet the enemy unit can still go to ground

Oh and also, there's no such thing as an 8+ cover save, it's either 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ or NO Cover save. So there is no such thing as a 7+ 8+ 9+ etc etc etc

Well, I'm pretty sure you can't go to ground against a flamer, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure you can't go to ground against a flamer, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

Sure you can. no rules against it. Just doesn't do anything other than make sure you can't move for a while

jehjr1337 wrote:
Also I'm like 99% sure that you can use going to ground against template weapons....am I right?

Technically yes but it wouldn't do anything as they negate cover saves

colonel584 wrote:

jehjr1337 wrote:
Also I'm like 99% sure that you can use going to ground against template weapons....am I right?

Technically yes but it wouldn't do anything as they negate cover saves

Ok, so I researched the 5th ed faq and it seems like I was wrong there.

Anyways, would you say "ignore cover saves" and "negate cover saves" are the same thing?

Anyways, would you say "ignore cover saves" and "negate cover saves" are the same thing?

Yes.

While you could argue that 'ignoring' a cover save could be construed as allowing your opponent to roll a cover save, but ignoring the result and taking the wound regardless and 'negating' a cover save could be construed as not allowing your opponent to roll a cover save at all, the result is the same. No wounded model can benefit from a cover save.

DoW

Aren't the modifiers (-X or markerlight hits and +1 for going to ground) applied to the actual cover save die roll? Rather then looking at it as a 7+ cover save, just roll for your cover save as normal and then apply any modifiers to that cover save.

Here's an example using my thought process:

A unit is in cover, 4 markerlight tokens are used to reduce it's cover save, the unit aso goes to ground.
I now roll for my cover save, I happen to roll a 6.
Now i apply my cover save modifiers, -4 from the markerlights, +1 from going to ground, for a final result of 6-4+1=3.
Since the cover save was 4+, and 3<4, I fail the saving roll.

To sum up, all modifiers are applied when the dice are actually rolled. It doesn't matter that some modifiers come at the beginning of the shooting phase (markerlights) or at the end of the shooting phase (going to ground).

That's my $0.02.

Is there a place in the Tau codex (which I'm too lazy to get out) which demands markerlight usage all be declared at the beginning of shooting? Or just that they have to be declared before dice are rolled? I'm pretty sure that you can't demand that markerlights be declared before a unit shoots (unless using to give + to ballistic skill) because markerlights can be shared between units. Pathfinders putting 6 markerlights on a unit means that the rest of the Tau army now has 6 markerlights to use however they want. Multiple units can get +ballistic skill, apply multiple cover modifiers between multiple units of shooting....

The way I've always played it is as follows:

1. Enemy Unit X in cover gets hit with 7 markerlights. (By the way, a VERY COOL tactic is to have a sniper drone team leader (or a networked markerlight drone, or a handheld on a firewarrior shas'ui) drop a markerlight on a unit, then use that to give +1BS to your pathfinders)

2. Tau unit A fires at X and uses 2 markerlights to give +2 to ballistic skill; now needing 2+ to hit. They cause hits and wounds, totaling 5 hits. The opponent player has 5 saves to take. If they are cover saves, I now say, "I'm using 3 of these to take away your cover save." If my opponent says, "They are going to ground." Then I'd say, "Ok, I'm using 4 of these to remove your cover save."

Anyone think of a real objection to that?

Don't think #1 in your example could work. Last sentence in the markerlight entry specifically says "Markerlight shots do not benefit from the effect of other markerlights."

Does it? I was just sitting here typing and the idea came to me, and I was like, "Why haven't I been doing that forever?!?"

I suppose that's probably the reason. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:Is there a place in the Tau codex (which I'm too lazy to get out) which demands markerlight usage all be declared at the beginning of shooting? Or just that they have to be declared before dice are rolled? I'm pretty sure that you can't demand that markerlights be declared before a unit shoots (unless using to give + to ballistic skill) because markerlights can be shared between units. Pathfinders putting 6 markerlights on a unit means that the rest of the Tau army now has 6 markerlights to use however they want. Multiple units can get +ballistic skill, apply multiple cover modifiers between multiple units of shooting....

The way I've always played it is as follows:

1. Enemy Unit X in cover gets hit with 7 markerlights.

2. Tau unit A fires at X and uses 2 markerlights to give +2 to ballistic skill; now needing 2+ to hit. They cause hits and wounds, totaling 5 hits. The opponent player has 5 saves to take. If they are cover saves, I now say, "I'm using 3 of these to take away your cover save." If my opponent says, "They are going to ground." Then I'd say, "Ok, I'm using 4 of these to remove your cover save."

Anyone think of a real objection to that?

I'd have an objection to that. You MUST ALWAYS declare what you're using markerlight counters for before your to hit rolls, as written on p29, and that's the way i've always played it. This means you have no benefit of knowing how many cover saves they're going to take, nor what tactics the opponent implements to improve their cover. Even if people did go to ground in that situation, a 6+ cover save will rarely be kind to them.

Another example might include shooting a squad of fire warriors (3 carbines, 9 rifles) at someone. You have 5 markerlight counters on the target. No BS modification. After the wounds are made, you realize you have a pinning wound in there and the target only has a 5+ save. In this situation you would want to modify their Ld severly, but cannot because your to hit rolls have already been made and no counter usage was declared.

Ridcully wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Is there a place in the Tau codex (which I'm too lazy to get out) which demands markerlight usage all be declared at the beginning of shooting? Or just that they have to be declared before dice are rolled? I'm pretty sure that you can't demand that markerlights be declared before a unit shoots (unless using to give + to ballistic skill) because markerlights can be shared between units. Pathfinders putting 6 markerlights on a unit means that the rest of the Tau army now has 6 markerlights to use however they want. Multiple units can get +ballistic skill, apply multiple cover modifiers between multiple units of shooting....

The way I've always played it is as follows:

1. Enemy Unit X in cover gets hit with 7 markerlights.

2. Tau unit A fires at X and uses 2 markerlights to give +2 to ballistic skill; now needing 2+ to hit. They cause hits and wounds, totaling 5 hits. The opponent player has 5 saves to take. If they are cover saves, I now say, "I'm using 3 of these to take away your cover save." If my opponent says, "They are going to ground." Then I'd say, "Ok, I'm using 4 of these to remove your cover save."

Anyone think of a real objection to that?

I'd have an objection to that. You MUST ALWAYS declare what you're using markerlight counters for before your to hit rolls, as written on p29, and that's the way i've always played it. This means you have no benefit of knowing how many cover saves they're going to take, nor what tactics the opponent implements to improve their cover. Even if people did go to ground in that situation, a 6+ cover save will rarely be kind to them.

Another example might include shooting a squad of fire warriors (3 carbines, 9 rifles) at someone. You have 5 markerlight counters on the target. No BS modification. After the wounds are made, you realize you have a pinning wound in there and the target only has a 5+ save. In this situation you would want to modify their Ld severly, but cannot because your to hit rolls have already been made and no counter usage was declared.

Tau Codex pg. 29 wrote:In any case, the use of a counter must be declared before to hit rolls are made... and is only removed AFTER to hit rolls are made....incase the firing unit cannot see the target because of night fighting rules the counter is not removed.

Not 100% exact quote at the end because I skipped the target priority part of why it's removed after to hit rolls.



EDIT- So yes, you are playing by the rules by not being able to minus the Leadership test after you realize you hit them with pinning shots.

-Orkishly

I agree with Ridcully's example.

As far as I can tell, the markerlight rules require that all of the markerlights be declared before rolling to hit, but there would be nothing to stop the Tau player from expending excessive numbers of counters above and beyond what would be required to negate the unit's cover save. So a Tau player could decide to impose something silly like a -7 cover save penalty on an unobscured vehicle, or a -1 cover save penalty on a unit out in the open, but all of the counters to be used have to be declared before rolling to hit the target unit. The Tau player could preemptively eliminate any benefit from going to ground, but can't throw more modifiers on in response to how the dice rolls, or decision to go to ground, turn out.

You do definitely have to declare the markerlight use before rolling to hit, so you can't wait to see if the unit is going to go to ground, however, I don't think the markerlights let you alter the target unit's cover save, but rather due to the use of the term "impose a -1 penalty" it reduces the die roll.

Which would mean you can use enough markerlights to make going to ground pointless, but there's no way to get the enemy to go to ground without them having a cover save (unless they are stupid)

I don't think it matters whether you think of the modifiers as changing the cover or the saving throw. The results are the same.

Dashofpepper wrote:(By the way, a VERY COOL tactic is to have a sniper drone team leader (or a networked markerlight drone, or a handheld on a firewarrior shas'ui) drop a markerlight on a unit, then use that to give +1BS to your pathfinders)

Tau Empire Codex, p29, Last Sentence of Markerlight Rules wrote:Markerlight shots do not benefit from the effects of other markerlights.

Oh and also, there's no such thing as an 8+ cover save, it's either 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ or NO Cover save. So there is no such thing as a 7+ 8+ 9+ etc etc etc

Is there anything in the rulebook to back that up? The reason markerlights can negate a cover save as I understood it is by pushing it from a 6+ to a 7+, which is impossible to pass on a d6. I don't recall anything that says you can't push it higher than that.

Indeed, AFAIK there is no limit on how many counters you can use to decrease the save and no RAW limit on a save @ 6+. So if the unit would otherwise get a cover save, you can use an extra markerlight to bump it to 8+. Of course you would have to use it before rolling your to-hits, so no one would go to the ground since it is completely denied any benefit before the choice of going to the ground is presented.

Note that against a unit which does not already have a cover save, going to ground still gets a 6+ regardless of markerlights because of the phrasing the the bgb p.24:
"Units that are not currently that are not currently in a position that would give them a cover save can still go to the ground [...] and receive a 6+ cover save."

As it's a cover save, the markerlight would affect it. It doesn't say "recieve a 6+ cover save regardless of modifiers". Whatever cover save they use gets the -1 penalty per markerlight.

I'm pretty sure you have to declare that you're using your markerlights AS you fire. So you use them to remove their cover save, they declare they are going to ground, so they get their +6.

If you use a bunch of markerlights to reduce their save past 6+, I'm certain this is allowed. As I BELIEVE it could be concluded that your save is worked out as follows:

4+ save, minus 4. Puts it at an 8+. They go to ground, increases their save by 1, but the expression is worked out once you roll your saves, so they still don't get a save.
That's how I interpret it.

I recall a conversation somewhere else, where it was concluded that Pathfinders in a building with their 2+ save could have it negated by pathfinders, but then they could go to ground and increase their save by another +3 (as it increases any cover save you recieve by +2, so going to ground would give them +1, their ability by another +2).

THAT is added up at the end, so I don't see why the markerlights wouldn't be either