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I figured this would be a good discussion.

Here are the relevant rules.

From the Basic rulebook its on page 67

If any models cannot disembark because of enemy models or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform a " emergency disembarkation" - the models are deployed anywhere with in 2 inches of the vehicles hull

Here is your two scenarios

A Landraider w/ 5 Terminators inside is destroyed with the result being a 5( this causes the vehicle to remain and used as wreck. The Landraider for our purposes is surrounded completely by models with in 1 inch of every part of its hull. The player places the 5 terminators on top of the landraider outside of 1 inch of the enemy models.


2nd

A Landraider w/ 5 Terminators inside is destroyed with the result being a ( 6 this causes the vehicle to be removed from the board and replaced with a suitable crater) The Landraider for our purposes is surrounded completely by models with in 1 inch of every part of its hull. The player places the models within the space occupied by the Landraider having a suitable crater to place there for representation purposes and outside of 1 inch of enemy models.


So are these players correct?


I say they are correct in the first and second scenario; the emergency disembark states clearly that they may be placed ANYWHERE within 2inches of the hull. On top is a perfectly suitable place to place them. Remember in the first case it becomes a piece of terrain and the 2nd it is removed completely. I state they can be placed where the landraider previously was as previously they are placed within range of the hull.

That statement anywhere within creates a rules exception allowing the placement.

You were wrong in the other thread and you're still wrong in this one.

Scenario one results in the loss of the squad. Scenario two the squad just takes wounds and is pinned.

Present a argument based in RAW that doesn't preclude me from doing that, its perfectly legal as the rules as written they may be placed Anywhere , the top of a vehicle is still the vehicles hull.


The argument your going to find is on page 11, its the models may not move into or through a space occupied by a models base or hull.

I'm going to agree with Hollis on this one. If the vehicle is wrecked it's treated as difficult terrain, which means models can be placed on it, and because it's within two inches of the exit point, there's no problem.

The second situation is obvious, and follows the normal rules, roll for wounds, and terminators can't be pinned anyway so you don't need to check for that.

From page 11 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model...

This is what prevents you from disembarking onto the top of the vehicle. "Anywhere" does not mean "anywhere at all in spite of any other rules". You can't disembark within an inch of the enemy and you can't disembark on top of the vehicle.

As for the vehicle being 'terrain', it's not terrain until after the squad disembarks. There are no rules for disembarking from terrain.

As soon as those models are placed and take a pinning check then it becomes terrain.


I say it does at it states anywhere and also the models are not moving through or occupying the same space as a vehicle. They're being placed on top of it.

That is not the same as occupying the space.


Lets look at it another way.

Let's say you have a Rhino up against a square box 3inches tall and 6 x 6inches ; it is surrounded by enemy models, you could place the squad on top of that square box as it is with in 2inches of the Rhinos hull.


Hull of vehicle != sides of vehicle only.

Ummm... you should read all of page 67. Under "Destroyed - Wrecked" it says:

"The passengers must immediately disembark, and then take a pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck." [emphasis mine]

So when checking whether or not your troops may make a normal or emergency disembark, the vehicle is not yet treated as a wreck. It's only after the models are placed on the table (or removed as casualties, if they cannot be placed) that the vehicle itself counts as a wreck.

Being placed on top IS occupying the same space. Placing models on top of each other means that they are occupying the same space on the table. It is clearly illegal.

And yet again, the vehicle does not become terrain until after you place your models. You can not disembark from terrain.

It doesn't state in the rules models may occupy the same space.

What it states is

Models, may not move into or through a space occupied by another model ( respresented by its base or by its hull).

This is what prevents models from occupying the same space.

I am not. I am placing it on top of the hull it is not moving through or moving into the vehicle at all.

Ghaz is correct there hollismason. You must disembark 1" away from enemy models, and you cannot place your models on top of your tank (as normal). Any models unable to do this are destroyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So then when you disembark, deploy or deepstrike normally are you allowed to sit on top of your tank?

edit: I think the answer is obvious. I don't think anyone wants to see squads of guard disembarking on top of their valks.

The Valkyrie is a horrible example of this as its 8 inches into the air.

Let's use something else.


Here is the phrase;

after pinning test is made the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Disembark pinning and it becoming a wreck happen in that order.


Here is the key though there is no "time" that this happens its all simultaneous what it states is that you place they test, it becomes a wreck now.

Checks for pinning are immediate, there is no "universal judge" subphase etc.. where this occurs. It just happens.


People confuse this as they seem to want to attribute some sort of subphase that this occurs in it doesnt.


RAW it is completely legitamate, there is no rule stating that you cannot occupy another models space, there are rules to PREVENT this from occuring.

This disembark does not have attributes of "moving".

Its a disembark a special TYPE that allows you to place anywhere with in 2inches of the hull.

After all this clarification, I retract my previous statement. I thought the moment that the vehicle is wrecked it becomes terrain, obviously I was wrong in my thinking, and I'm going to have to agree with everyone else Hollis, both RAW and RAI say that you're wrong. You're just trying to use RAW to make a loophole in the rules, and you're slowly becoming TFG just because you don't want to admit that you lose your squad.

Disembarkation is clear. Emergency disembarkation is clear (the rule of anywhere within 2" of the hull, compared to 2" anywhere from the access points)

Turn base sequentail gaming is clear pretty stright forwards. I dont takes saves to wounds before you roll to hit. You disembark your troops then you can move them through difficult terrain. Etc, etc.

Hollismason wrote:The Valkyrie is a horrible example of this as its 8 inches into the air.

Let's use something else.

Its position is irrelevent. If you can disembark ontop of your vehicle as an emergency, than certainly you can do it normally.

Hollismason wrote:Here is the phrase;

after pinning test is made the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Disembark pinning and it becoming a wreck happen in that order.


Here is the key though there is no "time" that this happens its all simultaneous what it states is that you place they test, it becomes a wreck now.

Checks for pinning are immediate, there is no "universal judge" subphase etc.. where this occurs. It just happens.

The keyword here is "after". This is absolutely a directive related to timing, stating that the pinning check happens before the vehicle is a wreck. Stating its all simultaneous is erroneous because the text explicitly tells you that the vehicle becomes a wreck after the pinning test.

Hollismason wrote:People confuse this as they seem to want to attribute some sort of subphase that this occurs in it doesnt.

RAW it is completely legitamate, there is no rule stating that you cannot occupy another models space, there are rules to PREVENT this from occuring.

This disembark does not have attributes of "moving".

Its a disembark a special TYPE that allows you to place anywhere with in 2inches of the hull.

So just to be clear, you are saying that normally, you may disembark on top of your vehicles as long as it is within 2" of the access point because disembarking is not restricted in the same way as moving?

It doesnt state 2inches from the access point but 2inches from the hull.

The roof of the vehicle is still the hull.

I don't see why people have a problem with this even with Rhinos etc.. you can only place at most 7 models.

It makes perfect sense as well if you think about it the models even have doors that open (rhinos) etc... that are on top of the vehicle.

You are not placing the models inside another model.

You are placing them in what is basically base to base contact something that is allowed for your own models.


What prevents you normally from doing this is that you cannot move through another model.


This is what prevents you from moving your tacticaly squad on top of a rhino. It has to move through the vehicle in order to be put there something that is not allowed.


What is happening here is not moving through but simply being placed.

I'm sorry, to be clear I was referring normal disembarking, which is 2" from the access point unless it is open topped. If you can do it as an emergency, then you can do it normally since they use the same basic rules.

If you believe that to be true, than the following situation can occur: I disembark from my rhino before it moves, and then move the rhino 12" with the models on top. I am then free to either rapid fire or assault.

Essentially the answer is "no". You are flat out wrong hollismason, that is not the way it is played. You cannot move or otherwise end up on top of your vehicle.

WooHOO!

Unassaultable guard!

*Deployies ontop of high valkyries*

Naanaa na na naaahh. Take that, pesky nids!

Oh wait.. theres more...

I can deploy ontop of my vehicles.. and move my vehicles around whilst keeping my troops stationary! Mobile firebases ftw!

Nonsense.

Hollismason wrote:It doesn't state in the rules models may occupy the same space.

What it states is

Models, may not move into or through a space occupied by another model ( respresented by its base or by its hull).

This is what prevents models from occupying the same space.

I am not. I am placing it on top of the hull it is not moving through or moving into the vehicle at all.

Yes, you are trying to move them into the space occupied by the vehicle. Placing them on top of the vehicle is moving them into the space occupied by the vehicle. The only other 'interpretation' of that rule that's possible is that GW doesn't want you to phase your models through another model. Do you really believe that was their intention? I for one do not. Your argument has no support. You are intentionally trying to move the disembarking squad into the space occupied by the vehicle and that is against the rules.

That is exactly what GW intension is that models cannot move through other models and that models cannot occupy the same SPACE as models.


Your statement that a models space extends beyond its physical model is incorrect.

Models are as is, there is not magical field around models that prevents etc..

It specifically states how you my not move through or move "into" another model.


I dont know how you are defining the phrase into ; that is pretty clear definition.

John Moved Into the Car
John Move through the car.

John was placed on top of the car.

In the third sentence john has not moved into or through a space occupied by said car, instead john has been placed on top of the car.


These are all common mistakes to make but you are mixing the argument of intention with the basis of Rules as Written.


The rules as written state " Models may not move through OR into a model".

This prevention is to prevent you saying,
" I move my model into my terminator etc.. what have you."

Disembarkation and Emergency Disembarkation are not movement they are seperate rules into themselves.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:WooHOO!

Unassaultable guard!

*Deployies ontop of high valkyries*

Naanaa na na naaahh. Take that, pesky nids!

Oh wait.. theres more...

I can deploy ontop of my vehicles.. and move my vehicles around whilst keeping my troops stationary! Mobile firebases ftw!

Nonsense.

You can't you cannot "Move through or into another model defined by its base or by its hull" in order to do that a model has to be moved through a portion of the model physically.


What people are confusing this with is being placed within is not the same as moved within or moved through.


I

Okay, fine.

I accept that you see the Embarkatio/Emergencm Disembarkation rules differently to how I see them.

Alot of people agree with me (or rather, I agree with alot of people). Not many people are seeming to agree with you.

John doesnt need to get into any more cars


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:T
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:WooHOO!

Unassaultable guard!

*Deployies ontop of high valkyries*

Naanaa na na naaahh. Take that, pesky nids!

Oh wait.. theres more...

I can deploy ontop of my vehicles.. and move my vehicles around whilst keeping my troops stationary! Mobile firebases ftw!

Nonsense.

You can't you cannot "Move through or into another model defined by its base or by its hull" in order to do that a model has to be moved through a portion of the model physically.


What people are confusing this with is being placed within is not the same as moved within or moved through.

No, what you are confusion over is the turn sequence of the rules. The models get disembarked anywhere from 2" of the vehicles hull. This isnt the wrecked pile of debris hull. It mentions a vehicle. An intact vehicle.

As per your explantion (see above) you cannot do what your suggesting. You give evidence (what I was hoping for) which disproves your own points.

Yes, I still stand by my last (not including this one) post.

Disembarkation and Embarkation are not movement but a subsect of Vehicle rules for how to embark and disembark a vehicle.


Again, I don't see it as a bending of a rules of anything. Neither intention or Rules as Written.

You place models on top of rhino
You take pinning check
Vehicle is now wreck


There is no rule prevention of that sequence at all you cannot move models through or into another model.

Models are not being moved or moving into another model.
As a side note:

If you want to argue intention etc.. You can however I am going to argue the intention of the rules was to prevent instant death of models occupying a vehicle and to make said instant death difficult to achieve.

Dude, just stop it. No. No. No. No. No. How many times do you need to be told that your ruleset you're trying to make up, doesn't fit, RAW or otherwise. If the whole world disagrees with you, and you are actually right, you're still wrong, because no one is going to play using your practices.

As you just put it

The rules as written state " Models my not move though or into a model."

Well, when you disembark your terminators, they are moving INTO the land raider by moving on top of it. Just like you can't put two models on top of each other when you disembark either. It's the same concept. It's also as other people have said, you can't put a team of IG on top of a valkyire and have it fly around, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE A MODEL OCCUPY THE SPACE OF ANOTHER MODEL RAW OR NOT.

I really don't know how to make it any more clear.

1. Vehicle gets shot, and wrecked is rolled as a result.
2. Models disembark from the vehicle.
3. Vehicle becomes wrecked.

The way you are putting it, the vehicle would crush all of the passengers before they got out, because it becomes terrain at the same moment that it's wrecked (which isn't true.)

Stop trying to put a loophole in the rules, your special Emergency Disembark that you're making up, makes it possible for anyone to leave their vehicle and ride on top of it.

p.13: "Remember, other models, friends and enemies, also count as impassible terrain."

p.14:"Models may not be placed in impassible terrain"

You cannot disembark onto you own model.

No it doesnt only the emergency disembarkation allows for that as it states anywhere with in 2 inches of the hull.

I dont understand how people keep misinterepreting this.

Saying something is occupying the same space is no where in the rules at all in fact there are several instances where models can technically move through spaces "occupied by vehicles".


The basic fallacy that you are interpreting is that the rules as written state something they do not.

There is no mystical barrier that exists above or below a model preventing movement underneath or over.

In order for a model to move over something then it has to be follow a line of movement that will bring it through a model.

Hence the statement through.

This is what prevents your models from doing this.

Models may move underneath skimmers.

Skimmers occupy a space above models, it clearly states they may not end their move ON TOP OF another model.


Models are not moving at all they are literal being " teleported" lack of a better word.


Being placed and moving through and into something are two different things.


in response to above

Yes, and the statement anywhere within overides that and there are specific allowments for other statements against that in the rules. Deep Strike, Skimmers, etc..

You're the one who's doing the misinterpreting. The rule you keep quoting does not exist in a vacuum. They do NOT allow you to break other rules which is exactly what you are doing.

Models are not moving at all they are literal being " teleported" lack of a better word.

So they 'teleported' out of the wreck and you 'teleported' them their from the side of the gaming table where they were sitting? What a crock.

Hollismason wrote:in response to above

Yes, and the statement anywhere within overides that and there are specific allowments for other statements against that in the rules. Deep Strike, Skimmers, etc..

Your models need a "special rule in their profile granting them an exception"p.14. That statement does not qualify as a special rule in your profile sir.

You need to face it. Its impassible terrain, no going on top.

Emergency Embarkation is what is called an accepted exception.

The rules specifically make an exception for this by stating anywhere within.

Rules don't exist in a vacuum in fact most every rule has some sort of "exception".

For instance the skimmer issue.

The rules prevent you from doing the men riding on rhinos etc..

In fact the rules as written are set up so that you cannot do this as the vehicle is no longer a vehicle after the disembarkation.

After they disembark and take the test it is a wreck and piece of terrain.

They can't disembark and then go well its repaired lets ride this baby into the sunset.

The rules prevent that. The rules make a exception to placing the models there.

Don't try to dismiss this by bringing up other issues.

You can't go on impassible terrain, and this is NOT an exception. It even states impassible terrain and 1" away from enemy models as being the only reasons that you would be unable to disembark.

Sorry, you need a special rule in your profile allowing you to move onto impassible terrain.

No, it's not an 'accepted exception' because it does NOT say that it overrides any of the other rules. It's not an exception unless it says it specifically. In this case it does NOT say it specifically.

lol kid is never gunna admit he is wrong, might as well let him fight it out with whomever he is playing, should he come into that situation.