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So I'm anxiously awaiting getting my first shipment of Dark Eldar in the mail, and poring over things to put into my prospective army lists. The Nightmare Doll caught my attention.

For 20 points, you can force your opponent to reroll the "Who gets to go first" roll at the beginning of the game if you don't like the result. Using this piece of wargear causes the model equipped with it to take a strength 3 hit at the beginning of turn 1, with no saves allowed. Except for HQs, all the models who can take it are 1 wound and T3, which means at the beginning of turn 1, on a 4+ to wound you lose a sergeant type model.

Anyone take it? Thoughts? Worth having?

Sounds like an unnecessary risk, for too high a points cost, for a halfway decent effect.

it doesn't actually work in standard missions as far as I know. I was pretty sure the only roll isn't for what nightmare doll does. Some of the war gear DE have don't actually work anymore. this one IRRC is one of them. I am curious how you are going to build them. They are very easy to lose with if built wrong.

Yeah doesn't work anymore as far as I know.

Not sure why they wouldn't work anymore? When we play a game....

1. Prepare the battlefield (Set up terrain).

2. Select a mission (and roll for objectives if necessary)

3. Deploy Forces (Roll for deployment type)

4. Start the game!


The nightmare doll says, "A Dark Eldar model equipped with a Nightmare Doll may force his opponent to re-roll the dice when ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter."

That roll happens after deployment of forces. You roll a D6 against your opponent and the winner either gets to pick their side (and go first), or let their opponent decide which table edge or quarter they want.

So if we roll D6, and you beat my dice roll and decide to pick your side....and you pick the side I *really* wanted to be on because of terrain...or if I really wanted to go first when you chose to....I can make you reroll.

Well there is nothing offical, but since my opponents and I follow the GT houserules from the UKGT it says:

Nightmare Doll - can this be used to make your opponent re-roll to see who goes first? No, this is only used to determine choice of sides and that is decided after you roll to see who chooses to go first or second. In 5th edition this wargear therefore has no benefit.

Out of curiosity...

Anyone able to tell me how mission/deployment etc were determined back in 2nd and 3rd edition?

It actually seems worth the risk- DE need the first turn

It still works and is a excellent piece of wargear as its been stated Dark Eldar really do need the first turn. Just give it to someone who has two wounds or more.

Dashofpepper wrote:That roll happens after deployment of forces. You roll a D6 against your opponent and the winner either gets to pick their side (and go first), or let their opponent decide which table edge or quarter they want.

No, it happens before deployment, and the roll is made to determine who goes first or second. The player who goes first gets to pick his deployment zone, and therefore no roll is made to determine who gets what table edge or quarter.

In days gone by you set up the board and then rolled off specifically for the ability to choose your board edge. Then came deployment, and once all the models were set up there was a final dice off to see who got the first player turn.

So it used to be...

Roll a D6 for board edge.
Then roll a D6 to see who deploys first.
Then roll a D6 to see who goes first.


Is that right?

And if so, they've merged all those rolls into 1?

Dashofpepper wrote:So it used to be...

Roll a D6 for board edge.
Then roll a D6 to see who deploys first.
Then roll a D6 to see who goes first.


Is that right?

And if so, they've merged all those rolls into 1?

Yeah, pretty sweet huh? Well... except for the part were your wargear doesn't work.

Maybe you could hammer it out with the group you play with or just cheat a little, your opponent probably never brushed up on Dark Eldar.

Dashofpepper wrote:So it used to be...

Roll a D6 for board edge.
Then roll a D6 to see who deploys first.
Then roll a D6 to see who goes first.

Is that right?

Almost. It was roll-off to see who gets the board edge, and the player who chose the board edge deploys a unit. You then took turns placing a unit each until they were all down, and then rolled off again to see who went first.

And if so, they've merged all those rolls into 1?

No, they've completely changed the mechanics. Nowadays you set up the table, roll for your mission, roll for your deployment, and then, before any models are placed, you roll off to decide who goes first or second and everything else follows on from there. Deployment of units is decided by the deployment type rather than being "you, then me, then you...", and the choice of board edge is automatically given to the player who decides to go first. It's not rolled for anymore, hence the Nightmare Doll is buggered.

Which sucks, because the Emperor's Tarot is a piece of 3rd Ed wargear that should also not work anymore, but has managed to avoid Codex-creeping into oblivion by virtue of the wording in it's description. Some say it's coincidence, I prefer to think of it as the power of the Tarot.

If your group allows you to grandfather it in, though, it's not a terrible choice. Just upgrade some warrior/raider squad to have a syrabite and give it to him. Sure, he may die, but who care?

I'm not thinking about a local group, I was more thinking about competitive play.

Forcing your opponent to reroll table edge or corner....

That roll still exists, but its now part of the roll to see who goes first. I'm not sure I see that being an issue? You basically would be making your opponent reroll to see if they actually *do* get to go first and pick a side.

"I was more thinking about competitive play." then no it won't wash with any one seeing as the FAQ (taken as gospel in 90% of completions)

One thing that can be very worth taking, if your playing enough points is Asdubael Vect.

In large 2000pts (or more) Asdubael Vect is by far the most stupidly over powered thing. He's a basicly a Ravager with an energy field that gives it AV14 against ranged fire. Also he has rules that you use the armour value facing you to hit in close combat ... oh did i mention this thing can charge into close combat and has 5 power weapon attacks at Str4? Only down side is it has no wounds so one lucky shot boom.

put the nightmare doll on a sybarite.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'm not thinking about a local group, I was more thinking about competitive play.

Forcing your opponent to reroll table edge or corner....

That roll still exists, but its now part of the roll to see who goes first. I'm not sure I see that being an issue? You basically would be making your opponent reroll to see if they actually *do* get to go first and pick a side.

You could always talk to T.O.s when a tournament is scheduled and inquire about it. Give them your reasoning for why it should still be a piece of wargear that is usable rather than making it useless.

Tri wrote:"I was more thinking about competitive play." then no it won't wash with any one seeing as the FAQ (taken as gospel in 90% of completions)

One thing that can be very worth taking, if your playing enough points is Asdubael Vect.

In large 2000pts (or more) Asdubael Vect is by far the most stupidly over powered thing. He's a basicly a Ravager with an energy field that gives it AV14 against ranged fire. Also he has rules that you use the armour value facing you to hit in close combat ... oh did i mention this thing can charge into close combat and has 5 power weapon attacks at Str4? Only down side is it has no wounds so one lucky shot boom.

Is there an FAQ somewhere? GW's website is not navigational friendly when you're looking for the FAQ section. :(

Dashofpepper wrote:

Tri wrote:"I was more thinking about competitive play." then no it won't wash with any one seeing as the FAQ (taken as gospel in 90% of completions)

One thing that can be very worth taking, if your playing enough points is Asdubael Vect.

In large 2000pts (or more) Asdubael Vect is by far the most stupidly over powered thing. He's a basicly a Ravager with an energy field that gives it AV14 against ranged fire. Also he has rules that you use the armour value facing you to hit in close combat ... oh did i mention this thing can charge into close combat and has 5 power weapon attacks at Str4? Only down side is it has no wounds so one lucky shot boom.

Is there an FAQ somewhere? GW's website is not navigational friendly when you're looking for the FAQ section. :(

Dark eldar here

All Errata and FAQ


There is no roll for table edge just going first or second and then choosing a table edge so this fall under the listing of wargear that serves no function.

Thanks for the Dark Eldar FAQ link! There's no mention of the Nightmare Doll in there though. As for the roll...the roll that determines who goes first is also the roll that determines who picks the table edge. The roll is more meaningful now, but it still exists. Kind of circular logic I know...but picking your table edge is determined by the roll you make to see who goes first.

I dunno... I'm not a DE player, but it seems clear to me. The roll is determine who goes first AND picking table edge. But yes, I understand the rule for the item does not exactly say that in those exact words.

To me its like folks who try to chump folks who work on nice bases. As long as its not ridiculous, its great to see all that work. But there are still folks who do this "its not on the original base" thing. Heck, if you read that section of the rules, it says the mini must be glued to the base, so if you have ANY terrain between the mini and the base its probably "illegal". Well, that's a bit longer rant than I anticipated! Yikes! Sorry...

As a DE player I've found the Nightmare Doll to be of mixed applicability in tourney play - generally you need to get with the TO and ask them their particular ruling. I've seen it go both ways and usually manage to argie about a 50/50 split of yea or nay for its use. The key language is, as you noted, that the Doll is triggered to make a re-roll when "ascertaining who may choose table edge or quarter." Officially it isn;t a re-roll of a roll for table edge selection, but a re-roll of a situation when it is being ascertained. ...as I said, 50/50 but lots of TOs either accept it on a RAW or RAI interpretation for letting it work.

If you can use it it's a pretty cool piece of wargear because that first turn usually is pretty sweet for DE to have. Overall though, I don't feel it's vital for tourney success, but can be a pretty good investment if you really love that turn one turbo boost/lance spam moment.

Regards,
Thor.

What about the rule that DE are always considered to be the attacker? Does that come up much any more in tournament play?

Blaznak wrote:What about the rule that DE are always considered to be the attacker? Does that come up much any more in tournament play?

I think only if you play Planet Strike

As previously stated this piece of wargear became redundant in 5th Edition.

Now we just have to wait for them to put an end to Emperor's Tarot abuse!

Ah well....if its a contentious issue, I'll leave it out of my list; I don't like running into issues about list legality during games, so tend to avoid bringing things that might cause an argument.