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So...numbers can be funny sometimes. We all know meltas are the uber tank rapers in the current rule set.

But, there are other weapons out there that do things meltas dont, and Ive been toying with them. I saw a post in which someone said they thought Assault cannons were better Vs av 14 than las cannons. I think most initial reactions will be 'Bullcrap!' Mine was. So, Osyr's thread on Las Vs Assualt cannons got me thinking on this.


But, then I crunched the numbers with the nifty Vassal40k- this is 100,000 turns worth of fire for each weapon- hittin on a 3+. Thats 100,000 shots for the meltas/lascannon and 400,000 for the assault cannon(PS- crunchin the numbers for 400,000 ac shots made my laptop use its safeword). Note- the Melta w/1d6 is also the same as a Krak Missle(jsut thought Id mention it since some SM armies still use them for the cheapie upgrade).

So Lascannon vs AV 14 11056 dice glance (5), 11186 dice penetrate (6+)
Metla-with 2d6 vs Av 14= 9074 dice glance (6), 38830 dice penetrate (7+) =
Melta w/1d6 vs Av 14= 11071 dice glance (6) =
Assault Cannon vs AV 14 14786 dice glance (8), 15082 dice penetrate (9+)


Lascannon Vs AV 13= 11036 dice glance (4), 22466 dice penetrate (5+)
Melta w/2d6 vs av 13=7274 dice glance (5), 48219 dice penetrate (6+) =
Melta w/1d6 vs Av 13= 11085 dice glance (5), 11089 dice penetrate (6+) =
Assault Cannon vs Av 13 = 14288 dice glance (7), 29664 dice penetrate (8+)


Lascannon Vs Av 12 = 11097 dice glance (3), 33222 dice penetrate (4+) =
Melta w/2d6 vs av 12=5496 dice glance (4), 55943 dice penetrate (5+) =
Melta w/1d6 vs Av 12= 11042 dice glance (4), 22196 dice penetrate (5+) =
Assault cannon vs AV 12 = 45188 dice penetrate (7+) (note- cant glance AV 12 since a 6 pen roll adds the 1-3 to its AP)

Lascannon Vs Av 11 = 11019 dice glance (2), 44327 dice penetrate (3+) =
Melta w/2d6 vs av 11=3655 dice glance (3), 60849 dice penetrate (4+) =
Melta w/1d6 vs Av 11= 11207 dice glance (3), 33192 dice penetrate (4+) =
Assault cannon vs AV 11 = 44201 dice glance (5), 44956 dice penetrate (6+)

Lascannon Vs Av 10 = 11007 dice glance (1), 55415 dice penetrate (2+) =
Melta w/2d6 vs av 10= 1902 dice glance (2), 64722 dice penetrate (3+) =
Melta w/1d6 vs Av 10= 11067 dice glance (2), 44509 dice penetrate (3+) =
Assault cannon vs AV 10= 45276 dice glance (4), 89708 dice penetrate (5+) =


So, Meltas within 12/6" are king Vs Heavy armor. Assault cannon are however capable of more penetrating hits than Lascannon. But the Lascannon has the edge over Meltas when they are only using a single penetration dice.

Once you get to lighter armor however, the sheer number of Pen & glancing hits the assault cannon puts forth is pretty impressive. This seems to make it an ideal weapon for working over squadron based vehicles.

And, all this isnt even getting into using the weapon Vs Infantry.

All this being said- I really think the Assault cannon- while 'nerfed' from 4th ed, is still worth the points in 5th ed.

This also has me wondering if the Assault cannon is better than the Cyclone/Typhoon, as for anti vehicle use krak missles are very easy to compare (use the melta w/1d6 stat line and jsut x2 for the results- its rough but close enough), however, 2 frag missles are pretty random, so are really hard to balance in an anti- infantry role. Oddly, it looks like the Assualt cannon is better Vs Av 14, and AV 10, but a Cyclone/typhoon would be noticably better Vs 11,12, and debatable vs 13 if you look at the glances. So, I think for termies, the assault cannon is better- as it cooperates with their 24" storm bolter range. For speeders, the typhoon gives better stand off range.

Note: I realize this is pure meta-gaming- there are numerous factors unaccounted for. But most of those are very situational table-top factors and difficult to account for- hence are excluded.

My own anecdotal evidence agrees with your thoughts: I've found Assault cannon equipped razorbacks to be worth their weight in gold (try to take at least 2 of them). Not only for for their tank killing power, but for their ability to finish off remnant squads and wounded monstrous creatures.

Instead of having to devote a whole tactical squad's worth of firepower to put that last wound on a Daemon Prince, I'll shoot the assault cannon at it. the higher strength of the weapon means more wounds (even if I don't roll rending) and opponents will roll ones and twos eventually.

My own feelings about it are they are well worthwhile taking if it comes twinlinked or the model using it has BS5 and above. Otherwise, the unit fielding it will tend to have other weaponry that might be more effective. (I.E. I'll gladly take them on a razorback (where I'll avg 4 hits more often), but on a regular Dreadnought I prefer to give a shooting dreadnought autocannonsx2)

Range is the major factor unaccounted for. At ranges of 25" and more, the assault cannon is totally worthless. That hasn't changed since 4th edition.

On landspeeders that extra range is key. The typhoon launcher lets you stand off at ranges greater than 37" when you fire (and move 12" to maintain that standoff range) which means the high-volume, high strength shots from things like assault cannons, shuriken cannons, multilasers, heavy bolters etc. can't shoot back at you. At the start of 5th edition I still had some speeders with assault cannons on them and they did abysmally because they had to close in to shoot and always got caught by the short-range counterfire. I just finished ripping the AC off the last one and replacing it with typhoon launchers.

Maybe the one place where the Assault Cannon might still be worthwhile is on a dread, where mobility and heavier armor means the range doesn't matter as much. But taking assault cannons on dreads means you can't take a multimelta, which is cheaper too.

I agree that the Typhoon is the choice for speeders now, because of the fragility of the platform. Assuming you're not on that MM/HF Vulkan-wagon. Basically, extreme range for survivability, or extreme close range for disruption factor and punch. Medium range speeders just get owned by medium range weaponry.

Terminators are really a toss up, I tend to come down on the CML side of things, but I made an AC model just to switch out when I like it. Keeping the CML has the added benefit of not removing a Storm Bolter. Fairly minor, but against hordes like Nids, just two extra shots can make a difference, and those frag missles just clean house. I think it goes without saying that the AC is better at Anti-Armor work, but then again, why are Terminators doing Heavy Anti-Armor work? And if they are, why not just close in to use Chainfists for 2D6? With the CML, you're ready for light to medium armor (transports) even at maximum engagement range, and can even lay down Anti-Infantry fire from 48" away. Once you close to 24", Storm Bolters open up and it becomes all about volume of fire. Also, if you use the Assault Cannon for this, you're only adding two shots overall, and still not denying cover saves. If the enemy is getting cover, you want to just throw the bucket at them, so those extra SB shots and Frag Missles to rack up some cluster shots is just what the Apothecary ordered.

If SW do get a special AC LR, that will be neat, and a deadly beast inside of 24".

GeneralRetreat wrote:I agree that the Typhoon is the choice for speeders now, because of the fragility of the platform. Assuming you're not on that MM/HF Vulkan-wagon. Basically, extreme range for survivability, or extreme close range for disruption factor and punch. Medium range speeders just get owned by medium range weaponry.

Terminators are really a toss up, I tend to come down on the CML side of things, but I made an AC model just to switch out when I like it. Keeping the CML has the added benefit of not removing a Storm Bolter. Fairly minor, but against hordes like Nids, just two extra shots can make a difference, and those frag missles just clean house. I think it goes without saying that the AC is better at Anti-Armor work, but then again, why are Terminators doing Heavy Anti-Armor work? And if they are, why not just close in to use Chainfists for 2D6? With the CML, you're ready for light to medium armor (transports) even at maximum engagement range, and can even lay down Anti-Infantry fire from 48" away. Once you close to 24", Storm Bolters open up and it becomes all about volume of fire. Also, if you use the Assault Cannon for this, you're only adding two shots overall, and still not denying cover saves. If the enemy is getting cover, you want to just throw the bucket at them, so those extra SB shots and Frag Missles to rack up some cluster shots is just what the Apothecary ordered.

If SW do get a special AC LR, that will be neat, and a deadly beast inside of 24".

At this point I've basically decided that my ten man Termie squad is just going to have one of each. I realize I'm not optimizing for any given role, but I just feel like marines don't really have to.

If all of my units can do a bit of everything, then the built in redundancy of my force should make it more durable than the next guy's.

That's a great attitude! And one that should keep you interested in the game a lot longer than the conventional wisdom of "anything worth taking is worth taking a billion of."

I've never liked spam lists. They smack of untried theoryhammer and unimaginative generalship. It's like trying to eat a 4 course meal with just a spoon. Sure, it works great on the soup, but no help at all with the meat.

I think your analogy falls a little flat. Taking a NetDeck spam list is like eating a four course meal with a wood chipper. No matter which course you're on, soup, salad, entree, dessert, just chuck the whole dish in plate and all and watch your UBARLIST explode it into a million shreds of pulverized goo to spew it across the dining room wall. The half of the table that thinks that sort of thing is AWESOME (self included) is going to be standing on the chairs whooping and making pelvic face-hump motions while the half that showed up for fun or to be "hobbyists" is going to sit by in mute horror or righteous indignation.

Pelvic face-hump motions........... lol

Land speeders are easy to destroy. Land speeders are easier to destroy at 24 inch range (Multi Melta & Assault cannon armorment range) due to more weapons being in range of the unit. Land Speeders are much more difficult to kill at 36+ inch range because there are fewer weapons that can get range.

Therefore, unless you are using your land speeder as a Multi Melta platform (at 30 points less then an assault cannon) you should be throwing on the missile pods so they can sit back and fire.

Since 5th edition came out I thought Lascannons were crap (except in a guard army when spammed & twin linked or ignoring cover saves).

I often find myself firing the assault cannon on my land raiders and doing more damage then a multi melta. The one key factor to remember for the multi melta is AP1. by "upgrading" every damage chart roll you have a much better chance of destroying a vehicle (I love blowing up ork battlewagons on a 5 or 6 on a glancing hit! or a 3-6 on a pen!)

Flavius Infernus wrote:Range is the major factor unaccounted for. At ranges of 25" and more, the assault cannon is totally worthless. That hasn't changed since 4th edition.

On landspeeders that extra range is key. The typhoon launcher lets you stand off at ranges greater than 37" when you fire (and move 12" to maintain that standoff range) which means the high-volume, high strength shots from things like assault cannons, shuriken cannons, multilasers, heavy bolters etc. can't shoot back at you. At the start of 5th edition I still had some speeders with assault cannons on them and they did abysmally because they had to close in to shoot and always got caught by the short-range counterfire. I just finished ripping the AC off the last one and replacing it with typhoon launchers.

This. To an extent, at least. You need Melta; there's no getting around that. You need it because Mech lists are powerful, and thus AV14 is powerful, and there's very little (nothing, in fact) in C: SM that can reliably take care of AV14 from 20+ inches aside from the 8+2D6. So yeah, Melta is necessary. Fast Melta is necessary-er, and as such I still like the good old MM (HF optional) Speeder.

However, considering the vast majority of mech in the game nowadays is AV10-12, and considering most of that Mech may or may not also be carrying Melta, having something to swat it from 25+ inches away is also a good idea. Cyclones, Typhoons, Missile Launchers, Lascannons and Autocannons (and, to a lesser extent, Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters) are fantastic for this; that won't change. Sure you can get a few Penetrating hits on AV12 with a couple of Assault Cannon Dreads, but a single AC/LC/LC Pred will likely get just as many per turn without having to move an inch; and, as Flavius notes, without having to expose itself to reprisals. You can also turn most of these weapons on infantry once the vehicles are dealt with, and although they're not as effective as bona fide anti-infantry kit like the Thunderfire Cannon they'll still produce casualties.

Frank Fugger wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Range is the major factor unaccounted for. At ranges of 25" and more, the assault cannon is totally worthless. That hasn't changed since 4th edition.

On landspeeders that extra range is key. The typhoon launcher lets you stand off at ranges greater than 37" when you fire (and move 12" to maintain that standoff range) which means the high-volume, high strength shots from things like assault cannons, shuriken cannons, multilasers, heavy bolters etc. can't shoot back at you. At the start of 5th edition I still had some speeders with assault cannons on them and they did abysmally because they had to close in to shoot and always got caught by the short-range counterfire. I just finished ripping the AC off the last one and replacing it with typhoon launchers.

This. To an extent, at least. You need Melta; there's no getting around that. You need it because Mech lists are powerful, and thus AV14 is powerful, and there's very little (nothing, in fact) in C: SM that can reliably take care of AV14 from 20+ inches aside from the 8+2D6. So yeah, Melta is necessary. Fast Melta is necessary-er, and as such I still like the good old MM (HF optional) Speeder.

However, considering the vast majority of mech in the game nowadays is AV10-12, and considering most of that Mech may or may not also be carrying Melta, having something to swat it from 25+ inches away is also a good idea. Cyclones, Typhoons, Missile Launchers, Lascannons and Autocannons (and, to a lesser extent, Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters) are fantastic for this; that won't change. Sure you can get a few Penetrating hits on AV12 with a couple of Assault Cannon Dreads, but a single AC/LC/LC Pred will likely get just as many per turn without having to move an inch; and, as Flavius notes, without having to expose itself to reprisals. You can also turn most of these weapons on infantry once the vehicles are dealt with, and although they're not as effective as bona fide anti-infantry kit like the Thunderfire Cannon they'll still produce casualties.

I've had great success with AC/HB/HB Preds to date. Great for popping holes in oncoming Rhinos and the like and decent against the crap that spews out of them. All at a significant range.

In summary, mad love for the dakka pred.

My wolves want that triple AssCan land raider liek woah lol

I think the AP1 from melta is quite useful, from AV13 and down. As it can only glance AV14 (at 12") the assaultie does come up trumps.

But all these marine squads with meltaguns and such, if they are within decent meltagun range then they are also within assault range. With Krak grenades which are basically equivelent to krak missiles vs AV12.

I have been saying this exact same thing since I mathhammerd' this out a few months ago.

Whenever given the choice I always field assault cannons over any other weapon.

my dreads even use ACs instead of MMs because they have a S10 close combat attack for the really heavy vehicles at close range.

Well, while the meta is so heavy in favor of Mech lists Meltas are an obvious necessity for consistantly penetrating av 12 -14.

But, as mentioned, the assualt cannon in its stereotyped role is hard on infantry and MC's alike.

Using the same model of 100,000 (BS 4) fire phases:
Melta/Lascannon vs T4, 3+ save =56,274 wounds
AC Vs T4, 3+ save= 44,554 rending wounds, and 222,644 wounds with saves. 73,721 failed saves(vs termies 66488 wounds counting Inv saves vs rends)

Melta/LC Vs T6, 3+ save= 56,739
Assault cannon Vs T6, 3+ = 44,563 rending, 133,403 wounds with saves, 43,894 unsaved wounds (vs 2+ 22,247 unsaved)

Melta Vs T8, 3+ save=34,002
LC Vs T8, 3+ save=44,209
AC Vs T8 3+ save=44,462 rends (cant wound it any other way)

So, I was pretty surprised on the T8 results- ran them a few times to be sure lol.

Also- its pretty obvious in this role a CML/Typhoon is superior vs 3+ saves, but far less Vs 2+ saves and anything with a 4+save.

This tells me that anything that can take a Ac/CML/Typhoon probly should, anything that cant, can be equipped with the melta weaponry.

Unless you are running Vulkan

When it comes to Speeders Mathhammer is less useful. It's always useful to know what Mathhammer says about your capabilities, but a lot of what Speeders do or don't do will depend on their synergy with the rest of the list.

Speeders are a unit that depends on other units to stay alive. They need something else providing a more immediate threat to allow them to operate. In this respect taking 3x can often backfire, as it earns them a round of shooting that can potentially kill them all. One or two, on the other hand, can provide highly available shooting that isn't so dangerous that the enemy has to focus on it.

This is particularly true of the Typhoon, less so with the Melta versions, where they may be able to use cover, then pounce and kill something before the enemy can effect them at all.

I used a typhoon squadron at Ardboyz and the stand of range was great.Multilasers couldnt reach and the can squadrons i faced were torn apart just getting to into range.The old tornadoe speeder while deadly has been almost a one shot or nothing survivability rate.

I use 6-8 speeders with great effectiveness.

You would be amazed at how resilient they are.

If you are going to take down a squad of three, you had best not shoot it with one weapon at a time.

Even with a single lascannon shot, you only have a roughly 1 in 3 chance of downing a speeder in a squadron.

If you don't succeed in killing a speeder and shoot the squadron again, guess who's taking that damage?

Taking down a squad of three Speeders isn't that hard, given the squadron rules. If any Immobilized results come up, then they count as Destroyed, if they go Flat Out then they aren't shooting, and Autocannons and similar weapons chew them right up. That's a possibility of a Destroyed result on a glance, meaning bolters and the like, and 50% odds of a Destroyed result on penetration.

Maybe it's just the games of Warhammer that I play, but nobody shoots one Lascannon at a squadron and hopes for the best: you pour firepower into a unit until it's destroyed and then you move onto the next unit.

What drives me nuts are the lone Landspeeders, the ones that are dangerous because they have a chance of doing damage, but not something you want to waste an entire unit's shooting on.

Nurglitch wrote:Taking down a squad of three Speeders isn't that hard, given the squadron rules. If any Immobilized results come up, then they count as Destroyed, if they go Flat Out then they aren't shooting, and Autocannons and similar weapons chew them right up.

Which typically represents two to three times the speeders' point values dedicated to destroying them. And moving flat out is a huge benefit to a short range firefighter like the Land Speeder. The best designed Speeder Lists that I've seen take advantage of high levels of armored target saturation; 6-9 Speeders, Land Raiders/Dreadnoughts/Predators/Rhinos. You have to make a conscious decision *not* to shoot the big scaries if you're killing the Speeders.

And if you don't kill the Speeders, they kill you on turn 2.

There's a reason that Sallies on Wheels is a top tourney army.

Another example is Dark Eldar . . . so yes their vehicles are low AV but you can have so many plasma cannons that those Space Marines are going down . . . and you can always stick in some lances to open up their tin cans to get to the cowardly ones =]

Frank Fugger wrote:

This. To an extent, at least. You need Melta; there's no getting around that. You need it because Mech lists are powerful, and thus AV14 is powerful, and there's very little (nothing, in fact) in C: SM that can reliably take care of AV14 from 20+ inches aside from the 8+2D6. So yeah, Melta is necessary. Fast Melta is necessary-er, and as such I still like the good old MM (HF optional) Speeder.

I'm currently running a squadron of 3X typhoon speeders *and* 2X MM/HF speeders for the best of both.

Mistress of minis wrote:This tells me that anything that can take a Ac/CML/Typhoon probly should, anything that cant, can be equipped with the melta weaponry.

This is, generally speaking, the best way to do it; although...

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm currently running a squadron of 3X typhoon speeders *and* 2X MM/HF speeders for the best of both.

This ain't a bad idea either

It's all about redundancy and overloading at the end of the day, although if you're going to go towards one thing over the other then lots of quick Melta with a little bit of 48" shooting to back you up would be the way to go.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:

This. To an extent, at least. You need Melta; there's no getting around that. You need it because Mech lists are powerful, and thus AV14 is powerful, and there's very little (nothing, in fact) in C: SM that can reliably take care of AV14 from 20+ inches aside from the 8+2D6. So yeah, Melta is necessary. Fast Melta is necessary-er, and as such I still like the good old MM (HF optional) Speeder.

I'm currently running a squadron of 3X typhoon speeders *and* 2X MM/HF speeders for the best of both.

That sounds like a great little combo, and the best of both worlds. I may have to try it myself when I can collect up the models. One of these days I'm going to build the biker army I always wanted, and the Ravenwing Boxed sets will give me 1 speeder per 6, so I think I'll end up with 5 or 6 in the end.

You've got 6 missles and 9 HB shots downrange, and 2 MM or HF up close. That sounds like plenty of redundancy without overkill. The main problem with spam lists is that they waste so much fire by throwing the same hammer at everything. Efficient warfare is about using just the right amount of force, and no more. That way, your unwasted resources can go account for more kills elsewhere.

All sorts of power, in just the right amount. So many heavy weapons, all for under 500 points. You can't base a force around something so fragile as these paper airplanes, but they really are a points efficient "kicker" unit, taken in support of the more durable but less killy choices like Tactical marines in Rhinos.

GeneralRetreat wrote:
You've got 6 missles and 9 HB shots downrange, and 2 MM or HF up close. That sounds like plenty of redundancy without overkill. The main problem with spam lists is that they waste so much fire by throwing the same hammer at everything. Efficient warfare is about using just the right amount of force, and no more. That way, your unwasted resources can go account for more kills elsewhere.

It's not a bad combo at all, but let's not get stuck singing the praises of this "equilibrium" approach. The HB shots are going to be largely wasted against AV12-ish targets, which makes the Typhoon guilty of the same inefficiency that you claim is present in the Spammer lists. Likewise the redudancy is somewhat low.

If your goal is to seek "just the right amount" of whatever, then you probably don't have enough. Your opponent will prioritize targets, and they will crush whatever they see as the most threat, which will probably be the unit most effective at dealing with them.

Look at battleship gun batteries prior to HMS Dreadnought, for example. All differing bore sizes arranged by type to strike some sort of theoretical equilibrium. Then you get Dreadnought, the spam-hammer, and the design sticks because waste is irrelevant after you've blown the feth out of your target.

Same thing with Typhoon LS versus MM/HF LS; Typhoon is not bad, not in the least, but MM/HF can kill literally everything while Typhoon kinda craps out against AV13+.

sourclams wrote:
Same thing with Typhoon LS versus MM/HF LS; Typhoon is not bad, not in the least, but MM/HF can kill literally everything while Typhoon kinda craps out against AV13+.

Again, range is the key factor. MM/HF speeders have to get so close to do what they do that they typically only get one volley off, then get wrecked by return fire--same as assault cannon speeders. I'm pretty sure that's everybody's experience of them. It's the only way I've ever seen them work.

Typhoons can always find a good target because of their mobility/flexibility, and can--in my experience--almost always find a spot to shoot from where there's not much that can shoot back (or where the things that are able to shoot back are things you'd rather have shoot at speeders than your rhinos or whatever).

True but often times a single shot from the MM or HF is more lethal than several turns of shooting from the Typhoons and HB.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Again, range is the key factor. MM/HF speeders have to get so close to do what they do that they typically only get one volley off, then get wrecked by return fire--same as assault cannon speeders. I'm pretty sure that's everybody's experience of them. It's the only way I've ever seen them work.

Typhoons can always find a good target because of their mobility/flexibility, and can--in my experience--almost always find a spot to shoot from where there's not much that can shoot back (or where the things that are able to shoot back are things you'd rather have shoot at speeders than your rhinos or whatever).

I have no difficulty finding targets with my mm/hf speeders. If you are not running a vulkan list, I can see the attraction of typhoons. However, I don't like them since typhoons only have an advantage when shooting over 24". It's a lose when shooting under 24". With an effective range of 36" with mm speeders, it's not a huge factor.

Besides, I run vulkan.

Typhoons have the advantage over MM's (per number of damaging hits) on AV12 and less. Since speeders should be shooting at side or rear armor, which in all but a few cases(Land Raider and Russes) is 12 or less.