Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Phoenix wrote:This is a prime example of knowing when to take things with a grain of salt. Sure the assault cannon seems to do as well as the melt weapon in some situations and better than the las cannon in others, but how often will those situations come up?

How often? Anytime the melta weapon doesnt get 2 dice(which is more often than most people will admit). The assault cannon does better than a lascannon anytime its fired-against heavy armor its only a few %, but as the armor gets lighter the margin widens significantly.

Phoenix wrote:In addition, you have to consider the benefits of range on a weapon. A weapon with a 48" range is going to end up with at least one if not more rounds of shooting than the weapon with 24" range if for no other reason that its in range of its targets at the start of the game. It will also get more shots because that extended range means it can stay farther away from the enemy and take less incoming fire. This in turn means that it not only lives longer but can avoid those pesky stuned results. So try running those numbers again except this time give the las cannons / missile launchers 1-2 extra turns of shooting and see what happens then.

Assault cannon are only available to terminators(who are relentless), dreadnaughts, and a few vehicles(land raiders and razorbacks)- this means they are always mobile.

Lascannons come on space marines, dreadnaughts(at a premium price over the MM/AC), Land raiders and predators(yet again-at a premium price). No one takes them on dreads or Annialator Preds anymore- too pricey. So, in many cases, maneuvering your lascannon infantry means they wont fire- better to jsut hunker down and pull the trigger- which, I will agree they will get an extra shot or two off- this is balanced with them being easily avoided since theyre pretty static.

Multi Meltas we get on speeders, dreads, and tactical marines. The tac marines are entirely reliant on a transport to get them into range for the MM to be effective. Dreads and speeders can get in closer via DS or Flat Out with the speeders. But, neither of them are considered robust- and if you can melta them- they can melta you in return.

So- your argument about range of the lascannon being better is sort of a moot point as no one is fielding the units that can fire it on the move. And in the case of land raiders they're always driving at the objectives(hence towards the opponent) so its longer range may come in useful for occasional cross table shots after it unloads its troops- but thats if it makes their intact.

The same range argument you make against the assault cannon in favor of the Las cannon, applies even more strongly to the multimelta- since it needs to get twice as close to be fully effective.

Your point for range/maneuver is best exemplified with the Typhoon launcher though- its higher rate of fire long range, and fast platform enable it to easily stay out of range in most cases while providing alot of fire power. Thats why I have 6 of them...and want a few more


And, I will also note- the last line of my OP

Mistress of minis wrote:Note: I realize this is pure meta-gaming- there are numerous factors unaccounted for. But most of those are very situational table-top factors and difficult to account for- hence are excluded.

Situational tabletop factors-meaning things like range, terrain, cover, maneuvering, player skill etc. Too many variables to account for in a practical fashion, if there were some magical algorithm to work all that out, we'd never have to put minis on the table except to compare paint jobs.

Getting the weapons to fire and be on targets is the players responsibility. I crunched the numbers I did so people would know what is possible when they select a target for those weapons. Telling me I need to let the lascannons fire more 1-2 more turns isnt quantifiable, as I calculated for 100,000 fire phases in order to make an accurate statistical model.

Mistress of minis wrote:Im wondering if you are aware of what passive/aggressive really means. Not that it matters- you're allowed to behave ignorantly if you so choose.

You're doing it again... ;D

Actually that's name-calling, which is just out-and-out aggressive. Wind your neck in

And yes- there have been a few people that have expressed that assault cannons do not work them. And they have left it at that. 2 others have gone on and on about how much assault cannons suck. But the majority of the thread has been useful information being exchanged. Something you have yet to do really.

You can keep saying it but it won't start being true. Your OP posits that AssCans are worth taking because they're able to outperform Lascannons and 1D6 Melta weapons in terms of scoring Penetrating hits. Nobody's going to argue with that. More shots are better than less, especially if they have a chance to Rend. Well done, you have successfully used basic maths to demonstrate something that anyone could guesstimate simply by reading the Codex.

What you also need to do, however, if you want people to really start thinking about all the tools in the box and their possible applications, is to flesh out that math-hammer with some sort of context. I.E, all that "situational" stuff that's impossible to account for with calculations, like range, and terrain, the other bloke's list composition; core gameplay stuff. Doing that nets you a very different picture of the worth of the AssCan's net worth to your army. For me, that picture is a vista of wasted points, ineffective shooting phases and squandered FoC slots.

Once again I'm not about saying AssCans suck. It's more a case of presenting a second perspective on the issue, so's that when people start trying out Assault Cannons as AT weapons and find they don't work as well as the calculator says they should, they'll have some idea why.

All this assault cannon talk have sparked up my old love of blood angels (My first evar army yay \o/) and with the new rules for death company and the Baal predator (being able to move + shoot as a fast vehicle on a 4+) has given me some interesting ideas. Mephiston is also so very awesome but too expensive..Buut ahh, I digress.

How good is a TL-AC vs AV10-14 (Could some one please quickly quote me the relative % for a 'somthing' happening vs each of those groups, thanks!)

Chances of something happening, meaning at least a "Shaken" when there is no cover involved:

TL-AsC (I assumend you meant the assault cannon and not the autocannon)

AV10: 1,68 damage chart rolls, glance/pen mixed (dcr)
AV11: 1,185 dcr
AV12: 0,59
AV13: 0,59
AV14: 0,197


Against light vehicles, it really is useful. Medium armour may be still worth a short, and even AV14 isn't that bad if you just want to stop the enemy from shooting at you for a round.

Just keep in mind that these are just the chances of something happening, and that is usually not enough.

Okay, I was just talking out of my bum. Shame I can't just delete posts.

Need a mint?

Frank Fugger wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:Im wondering if you are aware of what passive/aggressive really means. Not that it matters- you're allowed to behave ignorantly if you so choose.

You're doing it again... ;D

Actually that's name-calling, which is just out-and-out aggressive. Wind your neck in

Please make yourself aware of the difference between name calling, and observing behavior. Im not aggressive, Im assertive, a subtle difference that seems to be lost on many.




Witzkatz, I'll see if I can run a comparison of the increase of a TL/ac over a standard one- its viable info for the guys that run AC's on their razorbacks also. But, more hits, is always good, moreso since more hits is more rend chances

I am notoriously bad with my melta rolls, so I take as many assault cannons as I can, because my melta rolls wont do anything.

one game I put over 20 melta shots (within 12") on a single battlewagon, only one hit and i rolled snakeeyes for penetration...

now, even as I say this, I dont run land speeders, and I dont run razorbacks, so they only time I have a choice of MM/Asscan is on dreads, so i go for Asscan there and call it a day.

One tabletop factor that you can't account for mathematically, but which makes a big difference in the AC vs. lascannon debate is the relative mobility of the firing platform that MoM has mentioned.

It makes a big difference because, although it's not quantifiable, a mobile platform can often maneuver to deny the target its cover save. That's why it's so hard to kill tanks with long-range, static firepower in 5th edition: because I know that predator annihilator isn't going anywhere, so I can park my tanks to maximize cover. But if it's an AC on a mobile platform, it can shift to expose more of the tank that it wants to shoot to LoS.

...and guys I think I have to say that you're being unfair to MoM with the yelling at her about being aggressive. There's a large body of well-documented research that shows men tend to perceive the same behavior as being "assertive" when men do it, but "aggresive" when women do it. I think if you step back and look at MoM's posts pretending that she didn't have a female avatar & name, you'd see that she's not doing anything that isn't really common for men to do on this forum. But because you know (?) she's a woman you're getting all defensive about it.

Mistress of minis wrote:Im not aggressive, Im assertive,

They're not mutually exclusive, you being a case in point.

a subtle difference that seems to be lost on many.

You're doing it AGAIN!

Witzkatz wrote:Chances of something happening, meaning at least a "Shaken" when there is no cover involved:

TL-AsC (I assumend you meant the assault cannon and not the autocannon)

AV10: 1,68 damage chart rolls, glance/pen mixed (dcr)
AV11: 1,185 dcr
AV12: 0,59
AV13: 0,59
AV14: 0,197

Interesting. What are the stats for Heavy Bolters versus AV10 and 11?

Flavius Infernus wrote:...and guys I think I have to say that you're being unfair to MoM with the yelling at her about being aggressive. There's a large body of well-documented research that shows men tend to perceive the same behavior as being "assertive" when men do it, but "aggresive" when women do it. I think if you step back and look at MoM's posts pretending that she didn't have a female avatar & name, you'd see that she's not doing anything that isn't really common for men to do on this forum.

Are you serious?

If it was a bloke being as priggish as she is I'd call them on it just the same. And, indeed, have. Trying to paint me as a sexist simply because I'm not willing to let her bs slide is offensive; both to me, since it's blatantly untrue, and I'd suspect to any enlightened woman, since you're trying to excuse bs simply because it originates from a female.

But because you know (?) she's a woman you're getting all defensive about it.

Would you be writing this here paragraph if she was a man? If the answer is "no" you're a condescending chauvinist.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
It makes a big difference because, although it's not quantifiable, a mobile platform can often maneuver to deny the target its cover save.

The more positively you weight mobility, the more value that short range/melta weapons will gain over longer range weapons. The only value to the AssCannon in an anti armor capacity is sitting at 13"-24". In general, all the things that can mount the AssCannon (except the Razorback) are goign to be operating at 12" or less, and can mount a Multimelta.

...and guys I think I have to say that you're being unfair to MoM with the yelling at her about being aggressive. There's a large body of well-documented research that shows men tend to perceive the same behavior as being "assertive" when men do it, but "aggresive" when women do it. I think if you step back and look at MoM's posts pretending that she didn't have a female avatar & name, you'd see that she's not doing anything that isn't really common for men to do on this forum. But because you know (?) she's a woman you're getting all defensive about it.

Actually I assume that everyone posting on this board is a dude, regardless of what gender may be in RL. I generally reply to everyone who takes an "aggressive" tone in the same way, you can refer to my responses to Nurglitch to establish a baseline of acceptance, if you like.

Sotomayor has my support, by the way.

sourclams wrote:
The more positively you weight mobility, the more value that short range/melta weapons will gain over longer range weapons. The only value to the AssCannon in an anti armor capacity is sitting at 13"-24". In general, all the things that can mount the AssCannon (except the Razorback) are goign to be operating at 12" or less, and can mount a Multimelta.

It's interesting that you say this -- I can think of one army where assault cannons are the vastly superior choice.
I was assisting my friend in creating a blood angels army. When building the army we designed it using 3 Baal Predators and 3 Razorbacks with Assault Cannons as the ranged Anti-Tank. So far his list has played out quite well. The best part is that since they are twin-linked the number of hits jumps from 2/3 to 8/9, meaning that the original numbers posted are even more in the favor of the AC over the LC.

What makes his assault cannons so effective is the versatility. Unlike a multi-melta, they work great on clearing out lots of infantry -- and can be used without having to get dangerously close to my nob-filled battlewagons.

All in all, MoM inspired my buddies blood angles list, and thanks for bringing the attention about how great assault cannons are vs. armor.

labmouse42 wrote:
All in all, MoM inspired my buddies blood angles list, and thanks for bringing the attention about how great assault cannons are vs. armor.

Thanks for letting me know That was the overall intent, just looking at things a bit differently can open new doors for people

Id like to know how it does as he gets in more games too. BA were my first marine army, I might go back to them some day