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The first time anyone looks at the Leman Russ Punisher they all go wow! 20 Strength 5 shots per turn!!! That would kill anything !!! But then you do the math...

Leman Russ Punisher: Shooting at other IG Shooting at SM
20 shots at BS 3 = 10 Hits 20 shots at BS 3 = 10 Hits
Strength 5 to Toughness 3 = 8.333 wounds Strength 5 to Toughness 4 = 6.666 wounds
+ Armour saves = 5.555 dead IG dudes + Armour saves = 2.222 dead SM dudes

or Normal Leman Russ with blast covering 10 models.

Leman Russ: Shooting at other IG Shooting at SM
10 Hits 10 Hits
Strength 8 to Toughness 3 = 8.333 wounds Strength 8 to Toughness 4 = 8.333 wounds
+ Armour saves = 8.333 dead IG dudes + Armour saves = 8.333 dead SM dudes


Why did GW EVER come up with this stupid idea?

Because you know they are going to come out with either the tank itself, or the bits to make one. Its really a money thing as far as that goes. And yes at first you see the stat line and it makes your brain crap. I know it did to me. 20 Shots? Really?! Thats alot!!
But as you said, once youve used it a few times...... its not really that impressive, specially compaired to a normal LRBT.But I suppose if you took 3 punishers, you might get alot more killy with the shooty. I dont know, I dont play IG lol

Gaunts. Orks. Guard. Eldar. Dark Eldar. Light Vehicle Squadrons. Bike Squadrons.

Essentially, Oranges are not the only fruit.

And if you are going to do a comparisson, at least get accurate. On average, the Battle Cannon round will scatter 4" (2D6 - BS3, average roll on 2D6 of course being 7)

What kind of opponent are you playing where you get 10 hits on an IG or Sm squad with a deviating battlecannon shot?

Mathhammer is fun. You can make mathhammer do about anything.

I did mathhammer with my gladius, it made me feel awesome.

Anyway, the model looks nice.

It's all hypothetical, in theory you could get 20 kills from the punisher. But will you?

NO...

wow, you actually have the time for that?

The ability to not scatter can be worth a lot. The back armor upgrade can be worth a lot as well. One of the big things is that if you ram it down someone's throat then it becomes very difficult to concentrate on other things such as objective taking. Or which unit will be the most dangerous to a unit. All your mind can concentrate on is the amount of firepower pouring out of one tank that is twelve inches from you. Besides, what about the demolisher cannon. 2/3 times its going off course. It has the same rang yet only has a guaranteed hit 1/3 of the time (about). The Punisher hits half the time. 12, or 1/3. Which is better according to mathhammer.

TheFirstBorn wrote:wow, you actually have the time for that?

You mean the 5 seconds it would take anyone to input 20*1/2*2/3*1/3 to a calculator?

For the past couple of weeks, I've been checking how many orks, guards, whatever that my pask in a punisher and vulture with punisher guns can kill. It's quite a lot. Mathhammer is quite fun.

1.) Knight Commander Pask.

2.) And what if your blast maker scatters off and only gets 1 hit? or 0? Or 5? What if you're shooting at a light vehicle and it scatters off like 2 inches, making it useless?

3.) Cover saves. Marines get them too.

4.) Knight Commander Pask. I know I said that already, he's awesome in a punisher.

5.) It's a goddamn gatling tank how is that now awesome?

6.) Rear armor 11 means orks w/o a Nob can't even touch it in CC or with regular shooting.

Orks don't come without Nobs. It doesn't happen.

The Punisher Cannon is fine against certain things if you know what to shoot. It's deceptively effective against things like Tyranid Warriors, anything Demons(not the Bloodthirster or Plaguebearers), anything Eldar that isn't a Grav-tank, anything and everything Dark Eldar, anything Tau that isn't a grav tank, Space Marine infantry via the Too Many Saves effect, anything Ork that isn't AV 11 or above, it goes on.

For the most part, the issue is finding what it can kill to earn it's points back efficiently. I wouldn't shoot it at Necrons or Plague Marines. I'd shoot it at Carnifexes to cause saves, but a Hive Tyrant with Guard would be too much. Small squads of deep-striking Terminators? Meat. Land speeder Squadrons? Blow them away. Fatecrushers? Ignore the bloodcrushers and shoot Kairos. Demon infantry? None of them have a save better than 5+ and they have low to average toughness. Light them up.

Also great against monstrous creatures. Tears Eldar Avatars apart.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:On average, the Battle Cannon round will scatter 4" (2D6 - BS3, average roll on 2D6 of course being 7)

This is a fallacy, as you haven't taken actual hits into account. It will average a 4" scatter 66% of the time (the other 33% being 0), so in fact averages only a 2.66" scatter.

Also, all the units you mentioned are just as vulnerable to typical blast weapons. The exception is resilient, individual or small model count units like terminators, carnifexes and greater daemons. Even against these, the punisher's S5 is still not particularly great. Against the non-godfex carnifexes, you'll see 1.11 wounds a turn, same with terminators and bloodthirsters.

Ultimately, for 180 points, I think I can do better. I'd rather have a demolisher and 15 points, or 2 hydras and 30 points. They're putting 6 S7 hits a turn out; much better against the big toughies, and a hundred times more useful against light vehicles.

EDIT: by 'tears Avatars apart' Rory means "averages 1.667 wounds a turn." which means you'd need 3 turns of shooting from the Punisher to ensure it's death. Interpret that as you will.

Mathematically, one wound from a battlecannon is the same as one wound from a Punisher cannon, except that the battlecannon will cause one wound that a non-godfex won't get a save against, while a punisher cannon causes 3 potential wounds the fex will have to save against. Strength 5 is good against t4 Terminators, any way you look at it. It isn't any worse against them than a battlecannon is and while a battlecannon might cause one wound against each member of a squad, the Punisher cannon has the potential to have overlapping wounds that may take out particular squad members. Greater Demons (except Bloodthirsters, as I've mentioned) have poor saves. This means that the average t6 GD that would suffer ~3 wounds that it will likely fail it's save against, vs the one a battlecannon would cause. It acts like a discount Executioner.

A squad of 4 Tyranid warriors would likely take 4 wounds from a battle cannon, and 3 from the executioner autocannon. A punisher cannon would likely cause ~6-7. The Punisher is better than some of the other variants in plenty of situations(and often cheaper).


Edit:It's actually better than the normal or exterminator russ against 2+ save fexes, because it will cause just as many or more wounds, but the fex would have a save against all of them anyway.

Better than 170 points of space marines, or basically as many guardsmen as you feel like.

You may be able to do better, but it is still a good tank, hardly a piece of junk, and tons of fun on the tabletop.

My problem is points, for a punisher's points I can get 3 chimeras with heavy stubbers each tossing out 9 dice for a total of 27 shots (9 S6, 9 S5, 9 S4) plus the guys inside.

Um folks, it's there because rolling twenty dice to hit is cool. It's actually considerably more entertaining if you laugh maniacally while rolling only to have every single shot miss.

Cannonness Rory wrote:Better than 170 points of space marines, or basically as many guardsmen as you feel like.

this line made me chuckle . I don't mean that in any condescending way, but my curiosity kicked in and I had to check: 30 naked guardsmen (for 150 points) would actually force 5 saves on T4 units at 24", compared to the Punisher's 6.667. Or 2.5 saves to the punisher's 3.33 on T6. move into rapid fire range and toss FRFSRF on there and you're looking at *15* saves on T4 (or 7.5 on T6) for 180 points. Actually kind of funny when you think about it. Don't let anyone malign our beloved flashlights, people!

Railguns wrote:Greater Demons (except Bloodthirsters, as I've mentioned) have poor saves. This means that the average t6 GD that would suffer ~3 wounds that it will likely fail it's save against

not true. Even if we're talking the mediocre, 100 point generic CSM daemons, that 3.33 wounds is before saves. They all have 4+ invuln saves, meaning only 1.667 gets through. Now that I think about it, the only greater daemons without a 3+ armour save or better are generic greater daemons, and keepers of secrets (both 4+ invuln).

Railguns wrote:A squad of 4 Tyranid warriors would likely take 4 wounds from a battle cannon, and 3 from the executioner autocannon. A punisher cannon would likely cause ~6-7

we're being generous here, and assuming a direct hit with the battle cannon. I agree, this is a very poor gun for killing warriors particularly because they're Immune to Instant Death. As for that Executioner, you're just paying double the points to put the hydra turret on a russ hull, but yeah 3 wounds is the average there. A Punisher, being AP-, would in fact only deal, at best, 4.44 wounds (5+ armour default), but more likely only 3.33 as I've never seen warriors fielded without paying the measly 9 points to make them relatively bolter-safe at 4+.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Punishers, nor do I think they're "junk"; I just like my high volume, medium Str shots coming from other units (like autocannon weapon teams, hydras, and chimeras), and put the "heavy hitters" (read: high strength, usually also large blast ordinance) in the heavy slots.

I stand corrected on the flashlights VsT4-6 issue. The punisher does perform well though.

Railguns wrote:Greater Demons (except Bloodthirsters, as I've mentioned) have poor saves. This means that the average t6 GD that would suffer ~3 wounds that it will likely fail it's save against

not true. Even if we're talking the mediocre, 100 point generic CSM daemons, that 3.33 wounds is before saves. They all have 4+ invuln saves, meaning only 1.667 gets through. Now that I think about it, the only greater daemons without a 3+ armour save or better are generic greater daemons, and keepers of secrets (both 4+ invuln).


Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Punishers, nor do I think they're "junk"; I just like my high volume, medium Str shots coming from other units (like autocannon weapon teams, hydras, and chimeras), and put the "heavy hitters" (read: high strength, usually also large blast ordinance) in the heavy slots.

3 heavy bolter and a punisher 29 dice, it's kind of intimidating to see someone roll 29 dice even if it isn't as deadly there's a psychological effect to be had.

Can't you kind of easily build the new kit to have all the different weapon variants it comes with? Just use the punisher when you have lots of little stuff to kill, or the plasma wiener when you have lots of marines. Add Pask to it too, and give it BS4, that will help those 20 shots a bit too.

At first I wasn't going to get the new kit but now I'm starting to change my mind, just because it will be easy to have all the different guns on it and I can build 1 tank but change it's load out for different games depending on what I need.