Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Models in terminator armor cannot sweeping advance. Am i correct in assuming though that mixed squads can? For example wolf guard with mixed power armor and terminator armor, power armored squads with terminator ICs joined and terminator squads with power armored ICs joined still can?

The general consensus seems to be that unless the whole squad can SA it's not happening. The only document that actually says anything about mixed squads is the Space Wolf FAQ that forbids it. That part has sat there since 3rd edition, however - when SA was still actual movement.

nothing says you cant in the rulebook :O

kight wrote:nothing says you cant in the rulebook :O

and on the flip side nothing says you can in the rulebook.

I would hazard that its intended they can't, as you move at the speed of the slowest model in a unit. (even though its no longer movement i would still apply it)

I'm gonna agree with Tri. All or nothing, either the entire unit can sweep or the entire unit cannot sweep.

The unit makes a sweeping advance as a whole, so if any part of the unit is disallowed, then they cannot make one.

kight wrote:nothing says you cant in the rulebook :O

Worst Rules Argument EVER!

Chances are, if the non-terminator model make a sweeping advance, the unit would fall out of coherency, which isn't allowed anyway.
So yeah, I would say if even a single terminator is in a squad, they can't sweeping advance.

Bob, there is no movement involved in Sweeping Advance anymore.

So can anybody actually quote some rules on this?

I'm pretty sure there are no special rules pertaining to this. So all that we can do, per RAW, is assume that any model that is allowed to make a sweeping advance can.

There are no rules forbidding a IC from making a sweeping advance based on what he is attached too.
(for those of you that say there are no rules to allow it)
The sweeping advance rule allows it.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:So can anybody actually quote some rules on this?

BRB pg 40, 2nd para under "Disallowed Sweeping Advances"

Some troops are not allowed to make a sweeping advance- in such cases the enemy always manages to disengage safely.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:So can anybody actually quote some rules on this?

BRB pg 40, 2nd para under "Disallowed Sweeping Advances"

Some troops are not allowed to make a sweeping advance- in such cases the enemy always manages to disengage safely.

This proves that the terminator squad can't make a sweeping advance. However there is no rule that states an IC attached to a squad can't make a sweeping advance.

However there is a rule that allows the IC to make a sweeping advance. (see sweeping advance rule)

But nothing allows the IC+Unit to make a sweeping advance: the termis CANNOT therefore the unit cannot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:But nothing allows the IC+Unit to make a sweeping advance: the termis CANNOT therefore the unit cannot.

This is what i'm looking for a rules reference for.

Remember Drudge, rules are by definition permissive. They tell you what you CAN do. So since no one can find a rule that allows a mixed unit to Sweeping Advance, it falls to reason that they cannot.

The rules permit the IC to make a sweeping advance.

For reference, terminator armor forbids the troops from making a sweeping advance. Not the unit and everything attached to it.

If a scout squad and a terminator squad fought a CC against a IG plantoon and won, would you disallow the scouts from making a sweeping advance?

Timmah wrote:The rules permit the IC to make a sweeping advance.

For reference, terminator armor forbids the troops from making a sweeping advance. Not the unit and everything attached to it.

If a scout squad and a terminator squad fought a CC against a IG plantoon and won, would you disallow the scouts from making a sweeping advance?

1 They do? I just read references to units, and IC are not one at that stage, unless alone.

2 The second part I will half agree with. The unit of terminators is what is actually referenced in the rules for terminator armor (not troops, and "unit" does include anything attached to it).

3 That would be 2 units and thus unrelated?

Todosi wrote:Remember Drudge, rules are by definition permissive. They tell you what you CAN do. So since no one can find a rule that allows a mixed unit to Sweeping Advance, it falls to reason that they cannot.

I know. But here is the situation as it stands:

You have a mixed armored squad. There are power armored units, which we know are allowed to sweeping advance. Then there are terminator armored units, which are not because the rules says that "models in terminator armor may not sweeping advance after assaults" (chaos marine codex pg 86). It says that models in terminator armor may not sweeping advance. Not units, and not units that contain terminator armor. So yes, it is a permissive rule system. And the sweeping advance is by default allowed unless another rule says that they cannot. And there is only a rule saying they cannot for the terminator part of the squad.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Todosi wrote:Remember Drudge, rules are by definition permissive. They tell you what you CAN do. So since no one can find a rule that allows a mixed unit to Sweeping Advance, it falls to reason that they cannot.

I know. But here is the situation as it stands:

You have a mixed armored squad. There are power armored units, which we know are allowed to sweeping advance. Then there are terminator armored units, which are not because the rules says that "models in terminator armor may not sweeping advance after assaults" (chaos marine codex pg 86). It says that models in terminator armor may not sweeping advance. Not units, and not units that contain terminator armor. So yes, it is a permissive rule system. And the sweeping advance is by default allowed unless another rule says that they cannot. And there is only a rule saying they cannot for the terminator part of the squad.

This.

Terminators cannot sweeping advance. However it doesn't say a unit they belong to cannot.

Timmah wrote:This.

Terminators cannot sweeping advance. However it doesn't say a unit they belong to cannot.

True. But GWs Space Wolf FAQ still disallows SA for any unit led by a Wolf Guard Terminator. OFC there's no explanation and the paragraph has been there since 3rd edition when SA was actual movement. Not that it will come up very often for anyone - there's really no reason to mix terminators with other troops most of the time.

Spetulhu wrote:

Timmah wrote:This.

Terminators cannot sweeping advance. However it doesn't say a unit they belong to cannot.

True. But GWs Space Wolf FAQ still disallows SA for any unit led by a Wolf Guard Terminator. OFC there's no explanation and the paragraph has been there since 3rd edition when SA was actual movement. Not that it will come up very often for anyone - there's really no reason to mix terminators with other troops most of the time.

That's a Codex specific ruling. Just like Dark angels bikers can't turbo boost during their scout move even though all other Space marines can.

You cannot sweeping advance with only part of a unit. If the entire unit can't do it, nobody does it.

Any model wearing Terminator Armour may not sweeping advance.

Kaaihn wrote:You cannot sweeping advance with only part of a unit. If the entire unit can't do it, nobody does it.

Any model wearing Terminator Armour may not sweeping advance.

What is the rules support for this?

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:You cannot sweeping advance with only part of a unit. If the entire unit can't do it, nobody does it.

Any model wearing Terminator Armour may not sweeping advance.

What is the rules support for this?

There aren't any. Or at least none have been shown yet.

Two separate questions. The one about any model wearing terminator armour is currently answered in Timmah's other thread.

As for only partial numbers of a unit performing a sweeping advance, the support is in the rule itself. You are told that the winner rolls "as a unit" to sweeping advance. Not as half a unit, or as a partial unit, as a unit. Since a model specifically disallowed from performing an action cannot even make the attempt, the unit as a whole therefore cannot roll to sweeping advance.

Kaaihn wrote:Two separate questions. The one about any model wearing terminator armour is currently answered in Timmah's other thread.

As for only partial numbers of a unit performing a sweeping advance, the support is in the rule itself. You are told that the winner rolls "as a unit" to sweeping advance.

Kaaihn wrote:
Not as half a unit, or as a partial unit, as a unit. Since a model specifically disallowed from performing an action cannot even make the attempt, the unit as a whole therefore cannot roll to sweeping advance.

Now by your own admission you say that a model cannot make a sweeping advance its the unit. Yet then you state that because a model can't the unit can't, except models don't make sweeping advances. As you just said.

5 tac marines, 4 with bolters, 1 with a multi melta move. The multi melta marine can't shoot. This doesn't make it so that the other marines can't shoot.

Your example is meaningless as the rules allow individual models in the unit to shoot or not to shoot. Nothing allows individual models to make a Sweeping Advance.

Timmah wrote:

5 tac marines, 4 with bolters, 1 with a multi melta move. The multi melta marine can't shoot. This doesn't make it so that the other marines can't shoot.

The Multi-Melta toting marine can still fire his Emperor given Bolt Pistol.

A unit is comprised of some number of models. When a rule tells you a unit does something, it means the same thing as saying each model in the unit does that something.

If some of those models can't do that something, then the unit as a whole is incapable of doing that something.

Your shooting example is irrelevant. It has no bearing on this discussion as moving and shooting have their own rules separate from sweeping advance rules.