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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 04:05:55
Subject: Re:Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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It was just an example of something a unit could do even though one of the models couldn't.
Anyways, this is another weird rule that probably doesn't have an answer.
So tbh it doesn't matter what we think.
It'll be whatever a judge decides.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 04:18:27
Subject: Re:Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
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The same as the Warp Spider question does indeed have an answer, so does this one.
When you must roll as a unit (which means inclusive of every model in the unit), any one model in said unit that is incapable of attempting what the roll would be for would cause the entire unit to be unable to roll. It's all or none.
In your shooting example, all the Marines are allowed to shoot any weapons capable of firing within the confines of their weapon profiles. Shooting rules specifically grant the exception to the all or nothing premise in that you may choose to have any number of models in a unit not attempt to fire. That is why even if one model has no weapon capable of firing the rest can still fire, and why I said your example had no bearing. It has it's own subset of rules covering this situation.
There absolutely are rules that are ambiguous and have no clear answer. This is not one of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 04:33:45
Subject: Re:Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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Kaaihn wrote:The same as the Warp Spider question does indeed have an answer, so does this one.
When you must roll as a unit (which means inclusive of every model in the unit), any one model in said unit that is incapable of attempting what the roll would be for would cause the entire unit to be unable to roll. It's all or none.
In your shooting example, all the Marines are allowed to shoot any weapons capable of firing within the confines of their weapon profiles. Shooting rules specifically grant the exception to the all or nothing premise in that you may choose to have any number of models in a unit not attempt to fire. That is why even if one model has no weapon capable of firing the rest can still fire, and why I said your example had no bearing. It has it's own subset of rules covering this situation.
There absolutely are rules that are ambiguous and have no clear answer. This is not one of them.
What premesis do you have for it being all or nothing?
Another example of things that a arn't all or nothing would be frag grenades when assaulting into cover. The models with grenades strike at initiative, those without do not.
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Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 05:11:25
Subject: Re:Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Kaaihn wrote:The same as the Warp Spider question does indeed have an answer, so does this one.
When you must roll as a unit (which means inclusive of every model in the unit), any one model in said unit that is incapable of attempting what the roll would be for would cause the entire unit to be unable to roll. It's all or none.
In your shooting example, all the Marines are allowed to shoot any weapons capable of firing within the confines of their weapon profiles. Shooting rules specifically grant the exception to the all or nothing premise in that you may choose to have any number of models in a unit not attempt to fire. That is why even if one model has no weapon capable of firing the rest can still fire, and why I said your example had no bearing. It has it's own subset of rules covering this situation.
There absolutely are rules that are ambiguous and have no clear answer. This is not one of them.
What premesis do you have for it being all or nothing?
Another example of things that a arn't all or nothing would be frag grenades when assaulting into cover. The models with grenades strike at initiative, those without do not.
Oh but frag grenades are different because umm uh oh right... There is no premise listed in any book for what happens when half a squad can do something. No clear and fast rule.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 15:11:05
Subject: Re:Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
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Timmah wrote:Oh but frag grenades are different because umm uh oh right...
The reason sweeping advance works like it does is because the check is a whole unit check. Cover works differently, as is clearly evidenced by reading the assault through cover rules.
When a unit is assaulting through cover, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1. Thats the RAW on assaulting through cover. For assault grenades, the RAW is that " models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty..."
Sweeping advance check is made by the unit as a whole. If the whole unit can't make it, then the whole unit can't make it. Nothing complex about it. This is just language and reading comprehension here.
Assaulting through cover, having its own section of rules, specifies that the penalty can be ignored by model, rather than by unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 15:25:41
Subject: Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Plastictrees
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Kaaihn is right about this one.
Here's the argument he should be using (he's getting close but not completely there).
"Both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their initiative value to the result." (BGB40) This sentence describes how a unit makes a sweeping advance, and it specifies that the *unit* rolls.
If you have terminators in a mixed unit and you roll a die for a Sweeping Advance for that unit (i.e. perform a Sweeping Advance), then you are violating the rule from C:SM p 102 that states "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance."
It doesn't matter that there are non-terminator models in the unit, if any part of the unit violates the rule then you can't do it.
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"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 15:28:08
Subject: Re:Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot
Probably somewhere I shouldn't be
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Perhaps another reason why not?
BGB pg 40 wrote:Some troops, as detailed in their entries, are not allowed to make a sweeping advance – in such cases the enemy always manage to disengage safely.
Are there some troops involved who cannot SA?
If yes, then "the enemy always manage to disengage safely"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 15:45:36
Subject: Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
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Flavius Infernus wrote:Kaaihn is right about this one.
Here's the argument he should be using (he's getting close but not completely there).
"Both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their initiative value to the result." (BGB40) This sentence describes how a unit makes a sweeping advance, and it specifies that the *unit* rolls.
If you have terminators in a mixed unit and you roll a die for a Sweeping Advance for that unit (i.e. perform a Sweeping Advance), then you are violating the rule from C:SM p 102 that states "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance."
It doesn't matter that there are non-terminator models in the unit, if any part of the unit violates the rule then you can't do it.
You have said exactly what I have been saying the whole time. Sweeping advance is made by the unit as a whole. If the unit as a whole can't make the move, then the unit can't make the move. I've been there from the beginning. Regardless, glad you finally see it.
Good luck convincing Timmah!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 18:28:03
Subject: Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Timmah wrote:Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Todosi wrote:Remember Drudge, rules are by definition permissive. They tell you what you CAN do. So since no one can find a rule that allows a mixed unit to Sweeping Advance, it falls to reason that they cannot.
I know. But here is the situation as it stands:
You have a mixed armored squad. There are power armored units, which we know are allowed to sweeping advance. Then there are terminator armored units, which are not because the rules says that "models in terminator armor may not sweeping advance after assaults" (chaos marine codex pg 86). It says that models in terminator armor may not sweeping advance. Not units, and not units that contain terminator armor. So yes, it is a permissive rule system. And the sweeping advance is by default allowed unless another rule says that they cannot. And there is only a rule saying they cannot for the terminator part of the squad.
This.
Terminators cannot sweeping advance. However it doesn't say a unit they belong to cannot.
Hey Timmah, so I have a chaos lord with a jump pack joining a squad of berserkers, does that mean the whole unit can move 12 inches and assault 6" without running/fleeting? Cause the answer is no, just like you cannot have part of a squad sweeping advance and the other half not.
The model in terminator armor is not an IC, and therefore part of the squad. Squads act as a whole, not as parts
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/28 18:32:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 18:53:31
Subject: Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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moosifer wrote:
Hey Timmah, so I have a chaos lord with a jump pack joining a squad of berserkers, does that mean the whole unit can move 12 inches and assault 6" without running/fleeting? Cause the answer is no, just like you cannot have part of a squad sweeping advance and the other half not.
The model in terminator armor is not an IC, and therefore part of the squad. Squads act as a whole, not as parts
Aren't there rules convering this?
I am pretty sure there are, again no access to a BRB atm.
However there are no rules covering sweeping advances with mixed units, hence the grey area.
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My 40k Theory Blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 19:07:08
Subject: Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The unit must perform the sweep.
Part of the unit cannot do this.
Under "break no rule" you cannot SA with the unit as you would break the rule the some members cannot do so.
TImmah: You need to show a mixed unit CAN SA as there is sufficient to show they cannot unless otherwise stated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/07/28 19:17:26
Subject: Mixed terminator squads and sweeping advance.
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Gimlet-Eyed Inquisitorial Acolyte
Around Montreal
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Nurgleboy77 wrote:Bob, there is no movement involved in Sweeping Advance anymore.
Darn you're right!
I hate when people teach me the game wrong. >.<
But ya, I still say they can't do it.
It's like when an IC without X ability joins a squad with X ability, the whole squad can't use X anymore. So all models definitely need to to be able to do a sweeping advance (or anything else really) for the unit to do it.
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