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Okay, so I ran into the realisation that Zogwart's Curse is right about useless. Why?

There are so few Independent character's in the game to begin with and when the character takes a retinue it becomes an "Upgrade Special Character" until the retinue is dead.

But I write because there was an argument on this very same topic. Zog's Curse states you can target an Independent Character Model.. does that mean you can target an IC in a Retinue since it is originally an IC model or do you go by it's current status. There is more than one way to read the targeting criteria.

What do you all think?

Some skills let you pick a model out of a group. Mindwar for example. Zogwort's curse is another one of those skills.

When you're fighting, and you cause wounds, the retinue exists to help keep the IC alive. However, Zogwort's Curse and other skills that specifically affect ICs don't fall into the same category. So in answer to your question, having a retinue doesn't stop the IC from being affected by powers that specifically affect an IC.

IMO, yes, you can still target an IC with a retinue when using Zoggie's Curse. The model still has the IC rule, even tho it "counts as" an upgrade character.

I second the above views, you can use it without the retinue taking the curse for the IC

You can indeed target an IC in a retinue.

And boy is it fun.

'Oh, hello Eldrad! Ever been a squig before?'

Zogwart is even more of a dick than Eldrad, Tzeentch, or the Deciever.

I can't not smile when i think of the situation,

"Oh i see you took Calgar."
"Yeah, 225 points but its worth it."
Turn 1
"Ok so zogwort is within 18" and he passed his psychic leadership test, i'm gonna use zogwort's curse."
Roll off marines gets 3 orks get 5, 225 points just got turned into a squig...
"But, but thats not fair!!!"
"No but it happened."
Ork player goes on to table SM player.

I do believe that would make my gaming experience...

Thanks a lot cougar, another Ork HQ choice calling out to me, tempting me...

Also, retinues are going the way of the Dodo, judging by the last few codices.

Hmm.... gonna hafta disagree on that. Most retinues from the older codices read something to the effect of "unless accompanied by a retinue, xxxx is an IC... etc..."

My understanding was that, in codices where retinues still exist, IC's lose their IC status until the rest of the squad is dead, at which point they start operating as an IC again.

I think the only exception is the "Look out! AAAGGH!" rule that Imperial Guard bodyguards give their commanders; since it openly states that they can take the hit instead.

Dunno how RAW that is, but it's how I would interpret it.

Yeah retinues are getting to be few and far between. And I live in fear of the day Abaddon or Ahriman becomes a squig......

Brother SRM wrote:I think the only exception is the "Look out! AAAGGH!" rule that Imperial Guard bodyguards give their commanders; since it openly states that they can take the hit instead.

Dunno how RAW that is, but it's how I would interpret it.

Except, of course, for the fact taht IG commanders are not ICs at all, ever, and so cannot be targeted by Zoggie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kartofelkopf wrote:Hmm.... gonna hafta disagree on that. Most retinues from the older codices read something to the effect of "unless accompanied by a retinue, xxxx is an IC... etc..."

My understanding was that, in codices where retinues still exist, IC's lose their IC status until the rest of the squad is dead, at which point they start operating as an IC again.

Hmmmm, let's see. Look at the entry for the character in question. Does the unit entry for that character contain the rule Independent Character? Doesn't matter what they're treated as, act as, etc, all that matters is that they have the IC rule.

"Hmmmm, let's see. Look at the entry for the character in question. Does the unit entry for that character contain the rule Independent Character? Doesn't matter what they're treated as, act as, etc, all that matters is that they have the IC rule. "

Yeah, except that units with a retinue lose the IC rule.

An analogy:
Unless I am female, I am a male.
If you have an ability that only targets males, and I am a female, then no soup for you.
Now, if later on I lose my female status (an awkward surgical mix-up, perhaps), then I am a male again and can be targeted.

The "rule Independent Character" didn't exist in the sense you mean it during third edition. It wasn't a USR-esque category.

Retinue is irrelevant for puroposes of Zogwart's Curse, as I've already stated. The IC does not lose the IC rule, he is merely counts as an upgrade character while the retinue is alive. The IC rule is still present, allowing the IC, even in a retinue, to be targeted by Zogwart's Curse. The only thing it really does is tie him to the unit and change how he is treated in hth.

"Unless accompinied by a retinue, ____ is an indepenedent character."

Ergo, when accompinied by a retinue, ____ is NOT an IC.


What's so hard about this? It's simple english- while a ret IC has a retinue, he loses his IC rule.

Madgod wrote:Yeah retinues are getting to be few and far between. And I live in fear of the day Abaddon or Ahriman becomes a squig......

And thus the need to take Kharn presents itself again.

Is that rule, Kart, out of a codex or the main rule book?

The wording in Zogwort's curse is:

"Target an Independent Character Model"

The word Model is what I've been arguing, that even though they may be in retinue and upgraded, in the codex they still have "IC" in their stat line under special rules.

Also, anyone know if there's someone I can write to at GW to make a ruling on this?

As for Chaos - I had actually taken Zogwart for Demon Princes with Lash, to take care of them. However, my opponent said his Demon Prince was a Monsterous Creature, not an IC. IDK if that is the truth but by that point I was damn tired of arguing over it.

Also, anyone know if there's someone I can write to at GW to make a ruling on this?

John Spencer, at:

askyourquestion@games-workshop.com

No, DPs are NOT ICs.

2000 Volts wrote:Is that rule, Kart, out of a codex or the main rule book?

The wording in Zogwort's curse is:

"Target an Independent Character Model"

The word Model is what I've been arguing, that even though they may be in retinue and upgraded, in the codex they still have "IC" in their stat line under special rules.

Page 48 in the rule book makes it clear, they are an "upgrade character" until all other units in the retinue are completely killed off except for that character. They then become an "independent character" for the rest of the game.

Yes Temprus, and it's that point we're questioning since Old Zogwort doesn't target an Independent Character but an Independent Character Model.

Elard is an Independent Character Model who you can field in your army. When you field him with retinue he becomes an upgrade character but at the root his model is still an independent character model.

On this matter I really think only GW can make a good ruling all parties will agree to since it's pretty poorly worded and a s*house lawyer like me can argue their way around the targeting issue.

If it does work like you say, and he can't target the character becuase htey are in retinue, than that seriously limits the battlefield.

In fact, if that is the case, the only indepedent character I know of he would be able to target out of all other armies I know of is an Ork Warboss (Or Mek or another Ork Psyker) since almost all other IC's can take Retinues (Brood Lord with Genestealers, Elrad with Seer Council.)

Eldrad CANNOT have a "retinue" there are none in the Eldar codex.

Actual Retinues are pretty rare. Mostly found in the older (Pre-Eldar) codices.

Ahh, someon was pulling wool over my eyes. So the Seer Council is just a unit he attached Elrad to?

At any rate - I write the question to GW and in the process of writing the question I compared Old Zogwort to a normal Warphead. What did I find out?

Pretty much that Old Zogwort SUCKS!

For an extra 60 points you gain the curse, the nest of vipers (which is actually a great piece of wargear) but at the same time you lose quite a bit.

First off for the stat line.

GAINS: +1 WS +1 T, +1 W

LOSES: -2 BS! -1 Str, -1 I, -1 A

Secondly, well, there is nothing else. I thought not being able to shoot would lose you the use of 2 psychic powers but on second checking the codex they auto hit... so.. at any rate.. Yea, that's my 2 cents.

Correct, the "Seer Council" is not a retinue. Just like a Marine Command squad, the Warlock squad is just a unit that has it's avvailability 'unlocked' by purchasing the Farseer. The Farseer can go one way and the Warlocks can go off on their own the otehr way.

As for ICs in retinues, again (IMO), they do not lose their IC status, even tho they "count as" an upgrade character. They do not become an upgrade character, they just count as one. Page 48, main rules. The IC rule is still part of their 'stat line' and still exists, making them a valid target for Zogwart's Curse. The only thing the retinue does is prevent them from being singled out in hth and keeps them tied to it. that's it. No other protection from abilities that target a single model (to include an IC model) exists in the retinue rules.