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This situation came up in a game vs Orks recently.

My opponent rammed my LR with his battlewagon and def rolla, dealt his shots, and wound up stunning my LR. So far so good. During my turn the LR and wagon both don't move obviously. Next turn he rolls his d6 attacks against my raider from the deff rolla again. Is this possible to do without moving?

I would say no. Fairly certain that in order to ram there is a minimum distance that must be moved (3" possibly?) So since a ram has not occurred, then no hits with def-rollas.

Couldn't he just back up 4 inches and hit again without a problem?

Nope.

There's actually nothing in the rules (pgs. 68 & 69) about a minimum distance.
But it would require your opponent to declare a ram move and I think that would count as moving if he were wanting to fire weapons.

It would count as up to a "6 move, so he gets to fire one weapon (or all if hes's fast). It wouldnt be a very good hit though.

I believe the rules states the vehicles are actually 1" away when you determine the outcome of the ram (tank shock) but the is no minmum distance. He just has to move his full distance if he can.

Actually, yes, the rules do specify a minimum distance:

Ramming, Vehicles, Rulebook, p.69 wrote:Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of.

So what is a "tank shock move" and how far must a vehicle move in order to move at its highest speed?

Firstly, a "tank shock move" is the same as a "tank shock" or "tank shock attack":

Tank Shock!, Vehicles, Rulebook, p.68 wrote:To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intended to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. The vehicle must move at least at combat speed. Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock.

Secondly:

Tank Shock!, Vehicles, Rulebook, p.68 wrote:Once the vehicle has been 'aimed' and the speed declared, move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared - no other changes of direction are allowed during a tank shock.

Thirdly:

Vehicles cannot fire weapons when they engage in Ram attacks. It's one of the differences between Tank Shock! and Ramming listed on pl69.

So yes, there is something in the rules about a minimum distance, and no, you cannot back up your Battlewagon to add distance to a ram.

Incidentally, while engaged in a Ramming attack, units other than vehicles are tank shocked as normal, but vehicles are rammed. Since the Deff Rolla specifies Tank Shock and not Ramming, you cannot use it to resolve Ram attacks against vehicles.

The minimum distance is "at the highest speed it is capable of" But that doesn't mean it has a minimum distance requirement, you just have to move as far as you can. In this case, as far as you can is 0 inches. In a ram, declared distance is not related to actual distance moved in many ways.

Ramming is a special type of tank shock

-BRB

Any tank shock made by a BW with a deffrolla...

-Codex: Orkz

All rams are tank shocks, and all tank shocks grant d6 S10 hits.

So, it goes like this: My battlewagon is ramming 18" forward. It only makes it 0". Shame. the ram is s 1 for tank plus 4 for AV for a total of 5, you're probably fine... Oh, and now I roll my d6 S10 hits.

Thanks for the replies, especially Nurglitch, that definitely helps clear things up.

Actually, deffgob, the bit where it says to move at least at combat speed is the crucial thing.

Because all rams are tank shocks, so all rams must be valid tank shocks as well.

No comment on the Deff Rolla vs. vehicles, as it's not the focus of the thread.

Actually, no Ramming attacks are Tank Shock attacks. That term "special" in there before "type of tank shock move" means something. That special word means that Ramming is similar yet distinct from Tank Shock.

It is distinct from Tank Shock in three ways, according to p.69:

1. Movement Distance. Tank Shock requires a tank to move at least combat speed, 6". Ramming requires in addition to this that a tank to move at its maximum speed.

2. Shooting. Tank Shock permits a vehicle to shoot if its speed would otherwise permit shooting. Ramming does not permit shooting regardless of what its speed would allow. A Monolith, being the only tank with a maximum speed of 6" or combat speed, could shoot during a Tank Shock, but not while Ramming.

3. Affects on Vehicles. Tank Shock requires a vehicle to stop 1" short of other vehicles. Ramming requires that a hit be inflicted on intervening vehicles follow the specified formula of movement + armour + mass. Read the rules: "Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal. However, if the ramming tank comes into contact with an enemy vehicle, the collision is resolved as follows." It does not say that an enemy vehicle is tank shocked. The description that follows does not resemble tank shock in the slightest.

So why would the rules say that Ramming is a special type of Tank Shock? Ramming shares several things with Tank Shock, including:

1. Direction and path of movement. The vehicle rotates and then moves in a straight line during both a Tank Shock and Ramming.

2. Effect on non-vehicles. Both Ramming and Tank Shock are resolved as Tank Shock against non-vehicles units.

3. Dreadnoughts can make Death or Glory attacks against a Ramming vehicle.

In addition, the rules for Ramming distinguish between Ramming and Tank Shock when describing what happens if a rammed vehicle (not tank shocked, rammed) explodes: the ramming vehicle "continues its move until it reaches its maximum move distance or another enemy (which it will tank shock or ram again!)."

There is no way that a Battlewagon move 1" will be able to harm a Land Raider. It hasn't moved more than 3" in a straight line after rotating to face the target, and the strength of its rules-mandated hit will be S5 (AV14 = 4 + 1 for Tank).

I'd be more in favour of not allowing a ram if they're already in base to base contact with the enemy vehicle, but i don't really see anything about a minimum ramming speed. All i see is highest speed capable. This could be referring to the declared speed that the tank will move (which will be its maximum). Wouldn't a vehicle fulfill this requirement even if its maximum speed is 0" from it to the enemy? But 12" (or whatever) from there onwards if it continues. I'm not very familiar with ork vehicles.

It doesn't seem obvious to me that 'highest speed capable' isn't meant to overrule 'at least at combat speed' entirely, but to add to it. Nor does it seem obvious that 'at least at combat speed' is referring to both the declared speed and physical result, rather than the declared speed.

In our leagues we play that the deffroller can be used against vehicles. In this case however, I'd rule that with no movement, there is no ram, and no d6 s10 hits.

I'm sure there are lots of RAW arguements for or against. Not real interested in rehashing them. The above is how I'd make the call at our tournaments.

Uh. Can you tank shock a vehicle? It has no LD value. Even though I'm pretty sure you can tank shock fearless units, theres rules to state what to do in this case, and fearless models still have a LD and toughness value and not an armor value.

No, you have to stop 1" short of any vehicles along the route of a Tank Shock.

Kreedos wrote:Uh. Can you tank shock a vehicle?

Yes. It's called 'Ramming'

You don't declare ANY distance when doing a ramming move, it's always at max speed, by default.
You just pivot on the spot, start moving in straight line untill you reach an enemy vehicle or the end of your inches.

No, you cannot tank shock a vehicle. You can ram one, but that is a totally separate game mechanic. Which is why Deff rollas, according to the GW UK GT FAQ, the GW askyourquestion guy, the INAT FAQ, and nearly any other reputable source, cannot hit a vehicle.

Whether or not you can use the deff rolla against vehicles (ie whether or not ramming is covered under tank shocking as referred to in the ork codex) isn't what's being debated. If that's the way they play, then that's just the way they play. If they want to play by the INAT FAQs, then so be it. It's not a hard rule.

don_mondo wrote:No, you cannot tank shock a vehicle. You can ram one, but that is a totally separate game mechanic. Which is why Deff rollas, according to the GW UK GT FAQ, the GW askyourquestion guy, the INAT FAQ, and nearly any other reputable source, cannot hit a vehicle.

A poodle isn't a dog because it's a 'special type of dog'?

Tanks must stop 1" from any vehicles during a Tank Shock.

Ridcully, since without the Deffrolla, the tactic would be useless, it seemst o me that the DR debate is indeed an integral part of the question. But whatever.

So yes, the Battlewagon can perform a 0" distance ram against the Land Raider. There is no minimum distance requirement to a Ram or a Tank Shock.

nostromo:

Incorrect, a poodle is a type of dog. A correct example would be that a cat is a special type of dog. "Special" indicates that something is distinct.

Course, we all know that poodles aren't really dogs anyways.........................

nostromo wrote:

don_mondo wrote:No, you cannot tank shock a vehicle. You can ram one, but that is a totally separate game mechanic. Which is why Deff rollas, according to the GW UK GT FAQ, the GW askyourquestion guy, the INAT FAQ, and nearly any other reputable source, cannot hit a vehicle.

A poodle isn't a dog because it's a 'special type of dog'?

Stick to the rules, because analogies are flawed because surprise surprise, different words have different meanings. Tank shock and Ramming are equal headings in the rule book, which denotes that neither is a subsection of the other according to the rules.

Awwww, but analogies are so much fun because they never really apply to the actual situation being discussed.
Simply put, Tank Shock and Ram are game mechanics. They are separate from each other and each has it's own rules, in spite of that little phrase "special type of tank shock". Forget real world "It's a giant metal cylinder" or whatever. They're game mechanics. And the game mechanics, ie rules, say they are different.

Actually, that "little phrase" is part of what distinguishes Ramming from Tank Shock. It's a structural rule about how the rules relate to each other, as opposed to a semantic rule about how the rules relate to the game. The Deff Rolla rule contains several sub-rules, the first of which is a structural rule, a reference to when its content is executed (during Tank Shock), and afterwards rules describing an addition to the Tank Shock rules: how many dice, what Strength, and when.

So we're agreeing that Tank Shock and Ram are separate? I can't tell from what you said...........

The whole minimum speed thing is not so clear.
"Ramming is a special type of tank move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
So, all it says under Tank Shock is you need to declare a speed and in Ramming it says it has to be maximum speed.
So, following the instructions on how to execute a Tank Shock (as they tell us to do), it seems like you can -declare- 12 inches (or whatever your max speed is) but move like a tiny fraction of an inch if there's a vehicle right next to you.
The Strenght of the hit wouldn't be too high though. o_O
Also, it's pretty cheesy.
So I'd like to say that you can't but it seems to me that RAW don't says so.
I guess if it's like a skimmer and it dodges your point blank ramming, you'd have to move all the way up to your max speed then, which could be pretty funny.