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I was looking over the missions and realize that troops are not AS imortant as in first round missions. I was thinking that just 2 squads of wraithguard should be enough for grabbing and holding onto objectives. The rest of the army is fast enough to go forward and deny the enemy thiers. Also, this lowers my kp down by 7 for first mission and 2 for second.

I was thinking of changing the list up to look like the following:

HQ:770

Eldrad:210

Farseer:128
Jetbike, spear, fortune, witnessing

Jetlock council:432
2 enhance, 2 destructor, 2 embolden, 4 spears
(every warlock is different so I can abuse wound allocation if I cared to)

Elites:484

Harlequins:242
8 harlequins, shadowseer, troupe master, 2 fusion pistols

Harlequins:242
8 harlequins, shadowseer, troupe master, 2 fusion pistols

Troops:1035

10 wraithguard, spiritseer, conceal, spear=399

10 wraithguard, spiritseer, enhance=396

Heavy Support:450

Wraithlord:BL/EML=155

Wraithlord:BL/EML=155

Wraithlord:sword/BL=140

So, what do you guys think?

Looks fine.

Have you looked over the mission that are out. Personally you dont have any forward movement and or objective grabing units. The second mission requires movement or unless you get really lucky. over all it looks great.

My army only gives 12 max killpoints for second mission and I get to place 3 of the objectives and plan on placing them as close together as possible... I don't know if you've ever played with or against a decent foot slogging army but moving 6" and running is fast enough to get where you need to go.

What do you mean by forward movement? My whole army minus the pathfinders is forward movement and pathfinders can move easily from objective to objective if needed and fleet... Mobility is not an issue with this army.

For the first mission, my army gives 26 kill points, all of wich are not easy to kill... Good luck finishing off 20 wraithguard and 10 pathfinders- with good placement and support my army is a castle.

The third mission, you don't need mobility, you can just sit in the middle of the board, take the objective and fan out taking table quarters and have the enemy come to you. I'll take the major victory last game if the enemy wants to give it to me =).

After looking over the missiosn that makes my decision to keep the army the way it is greater.

I think last round will be tough if you pull a tank heavy guard player.

I also think dropping the avatar for Yriel is a good call. The avatar goes down to fast.

I think I have settled on the following list:

HQ:365

Eldrad

Avatar

Elites:664

8 harlequins, 7 kisses, seer, troupe master, 2 fusion pistols

8 harlequins, 7 kisses, seer, troupe master, 2 fusion pistols

8 scorpions, powerfist, move through cover, infiltrate

Troops:1035

10 wraithguard, spiritseer, conceal, spear

10 wraithguard, spiritseer, enhance

5 pathfinders

5 pathfinders

heavy Support:435

wraithlord BL/eml

wraithlord BL/sword

wraithlord BL/sword

2499

I was looking over the missions and realize that troops are not AS imortant as in first round missions. I was thinking that just 2 squads of wraithguard should be enough for grabbing and holding onto objectives. The rest of the army is fast enough to go forward and deny the enemy thiers. Also, this lowers my kp down by 7 for first mission and 2 for second.

I was thinking of changing the list up to look like the following:

HQ:770

Eldrad:210

Farseer:128
Jetbike, spear, fortune, witnessing

Jetlock council:432
2 enhance, 2 destructor, 2 embolden, 4 spears
(every warlock is different so I can abuse wound allocation if I cared to)

Elites:484

Harlequins:242
8 harlequins, shadowseer, troupe master, 2 fusion pistols

Harlequins:242
8 harlequins, shadowseer, troupe master, 2 fusion pistols

Troops:1035

10 wraithguard, spiritseer, conceal, spear=399

10 wraithguard, spiritseer, enhance=396

Heavy Support:450

Wraithlord:BL/EML=155

Wraithlord:BL/EML=155

Wraithlord:sword/BL=140

So, what do you guys think?

hmmm. that's good, I like the Jetbike Council.

Ok, I've been talking with a friend and been thinking of the following changes (dropping a harlequin squad and wraithlords for warp spiders and 3 fire prisms):

HQ:696

Eldrad (walking with wraithguard and harlequins to claim objectives and kill stuff)

farseer:bike, fortune, spear=118

Jetlock council:7 jetlocks, 1 enhance, 1 embolden, 3 destructor, 1 spear=368

Elites:286

10 harlequins, shadowseer, troupe master, 2 fusion guns, 9 kisses=286

Troops:798

10 Wraithguard, spiritseer, conceal, spear=399

10 Wraithguard, spiritseer, conceal, spear=399

Fast Attack:240

9 warpspiders, exarch, extra deathspinner, powerblades, withdraw=240

Heavy Support:480

Fire prism, holofields, spiritstones=160

Fire prism, holofields, spiritstones=160

Fire prism, holofields, spiritstones=160


Was thinking of trying this list, do you guys think it is better than the other jetlock list? Basically, eldrad, harlequins and wraithguard will meander over to claim objectives and kill anything in range-jetlock council and warpspiders will go up to contest and stuff while fire prisms zoom around kill stuff and contest.

I feel that the Warp Spiders may be a bit too fragile for your list. Sure they're fast moving, but they're going to draw a hell of a lot of small arms fire with the only other targets for that being the seer council and wraithguard. What made you decide to change your list this way? Do you think that the 3 Prisms are going to compliment your army's resilience as much as the Wraithlords did? (Just curious lol)

Personally I think your better off with your wraithlords. They have more staying power and more firepower on top of adding a nasty close combat element for you.

Aaargh, double post!

My changes were just as a result from tryign to crunch numbers and make what someone else suggested to me work, I guess the changes are not really good for my army and yeah, I do think the wraithlrods will be better so I'll add those back in:

HQ:709

Eldrad (walking with wraithguard and harlequins to claim objectives and kill stuff)

farseer:bike, fortune, spear=118

Jetlock council:7 jetlocks, 1 enhance, 1 embolden, 4 destructor, 2 spear=381

Elites:528

2X9 harlequins, shadowseer, troupe master, 2 fusion guns, 8 kisses=264

Troops:798

2X 10 Wraithguard, spiritseer, enhance, spear=399

Heavy Support:465

3X wraithlord with eml/bl

2500 I'll practice with that list since I KNOW how to use everything in it-the other models I've not used and don't own so that makes it easy huh =) thanks for your feedback guys!

I'm always a fan of the high toughness eldar force.

Bravo!

I liked the Wraithlords in your list for a couple reasons...and they are the additional Flamer Templates.

So much of your stuff will wound on 2+ so Doom becomes less valuable. However, with Wraithzilla...Mind War becomes tremendously invaluable. Plucking out Powerfists and Weapons from squads will make them think 3 times about trying to tie down a Wraith unit.

As long as you are conscious of where you need to be turn 5 from the outset, you should have a very good list to work with. Horde Orks will give you pause since all the standard selections are very good at dealing with what you have so you need to be cautious (also running out of time with your list could be bad since you'll need 5 turns against most good opponents to pull out wins)...and that cautious play will keep you from moving as aggressively as you will need to get onto objectives.

I am a big fan of elfzilla. 2500 points is the very helpful for this style of play. I hope you get the right matchups and make it to the final round.

Well, I'm not a fan of ElfZilla, but I don't think the Council adds much to the list, and you'd be better off with 8/10 Banshees, Exarch, Executioner. Hide them behind the Harlies for protection. Advancing with the others ensures they hit the enemy lines, adn they cover more of your weaknesses than Scorpions do, as Harlies deal with hordes a bit better than they do MEQs.

I disagree Elessar. I think adding another ridiculously hard to kill target that is an excellent bog down unit is a good thing in a list like this. This list is all about survivability and it can take a lot of punishment. His biggest fears are not going first against a very, very shooty army or running into an old fashion ld10 psychic hood.

Where as Banshees aren't nearly survivable enough. Banshees would give all his low st shooting something they can kill at more than 12" reliably.

I don't like harlies. I think wraithguard are meat for th/ss termies in lrc's. Wraithlords ARE meat for anti-tank. I suppose the harlies might be able to give them a cover save, which would help compensate, but mm speeders will probably be able to negate that by shooting from a high enough position so the lords don't get a cover save.

The seer council on jet bikes is this list's one true saving grace. It's the only thing that will really help you vs vulkan marine lists.

Are 2 scoring units going to be enough?

It looks like a very interesting idea, and it has the advantage that very few people will be expecting something like this in the second round. While WL certainly can be hurt by AT, they are not especially vulnerable to vulcan lists. TL melta are still only going to cause one wound, meaning that the WL will require more shots to kill than would the prisms that would likely otherwise be used.

The small number of units will help on the kp side but yes the big question becomes whether or not this is enough units to handle objective missions.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:It looks like a very interesting idea, and it has the advantage that very few people will be expecting something like this in the second round. While WL certainly can be hurt by AT, they are not especially vulnerable to vulcan lists. TL melta are still only going to cause one wound, meaning that the WL will require more shots to kill than would the prisms that would likely otherwise be used.

The small number of units will help on the kp side but yes the big question becomes whether or not this is enough units to handle objective missions.


Sliggoth

Most vulkan lists have 10+ mobile mm's, twin linked that's 9+ hits with 4-5+ wounds. It would take very little to kill 2 lords in one firing pass. The prisms were ok right up to the point where he put holo fields on them.

KP's should never be a high priority 'thought' in the lists you build. Build a good list and pour the fail sauce on your opponent. No points for fluffy in 'ard boyz.

Yes most vulkan lists have 10+ meltas .... and wl are tougher to kill with melta fire than prisms would be.

A twin linked melta will hit 8/9ths of the time, and on a toughness 8 wl will wound half the time. So to actually do 3 wounds would require on average 7 shots. Killing 2 wl on one firing pass would require 14 shots, a bit much for most vulkan list to deliver on target in one turn.

And the prisms would be more surviveable against this melta fire in what way? Especially if the prisms arent running holofields. Three stripped prisms would check in at about the same points as two well equipped wl, but the three prisms will not require 14 shots on average to cripple/ destroy. (melta and ap1 will destroy the vehicle on half the pens, and another one sixth chance at removing the weapon) So on average the 10+ mms will indeed wipe out all three prisms while not coming close to killing two wls. Three MM per prism would probably be adequate, since a surviving prism would most likely be stunned, weaponless or immoblized.
Taking two holofielded prisms would at least give a chance of not being destroyed outright but being shaken/ stunned isnt a good thing against skimmers armed with melta.

A vulkan list is going to hurt anything the eldar field against it, but a wraithzilla is MORE resilient against melta then a mechdar list, at least so far as the heavy slot choices go. Use the avatar or serpents to face melta fire if thats what you are expecting to see.


Personally I prefer prisms in the metagame myself right now, but thats partially because of their flexibility and cheapness. Surviveability the WL beats the prism in most cases. Now in being able to dish out long range damage, the prism has a lot more to offer.


Sliggoth

I played 2 vulkan armies first and second round and had no problem, also remember that if the wraithlord gets a cover save (like fromhaving 50% blocked from wraithguard) then the meltas are even less effective.

It comes down to knowing where and how to use your stuff against the oponents, that is what skill is all about! Not to mention, with objectives, that only matters second and 3rd round.

For the second round, the objectives can be placed enar each other-we each get to place 3 and one scoring unit can claim multiple objectives so...2 scoring units are enough granted they do not die!

On the third round, same thing, the scoring units must not die and if I kill the enemies scoring units, guarantee win.

The list can work, it worked really well in the previous round and so we'll see who I fight because I think that will make more of a difference than the missions.

A large part of why I consider Wraithguard useless is because they can reliably be killed by one Vendetta, in a single turn.

Elessar wrote:A large part of why I consider Wraithguard useless is because they can reliably be killed by one Vendetta, in a single turn.

Please explain that one to me. Curious how 10 T6, with rerollable 3+ saves, and probaby re-rollable 5+ (or better) cover saves can be offed in one turn?

Sorry, typo, I meant Lords.

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and assume he meant wraithlords.... which isn't true, 3 TL-LC will put only 1.5 wounds on a wraith.

I do like wraithguard, particularly with the 5e run making foot-slogging short-ranged guns not quite so, well, short ranged. I do, however, agree that a tank-heavy guard army could be painful; enough AP3 large blasts to work over your infantry, and enough multi-lasers and autocannons to chip away at those wraithguard.

Best of luck, let us know how the wraithzilla serves you!


EDIT: score one for me, I was right

The Defenestrator wrote:I do like wraithguard, particularly with the 5e run making foot-slogging short-ranged guns not quite so, well, short ranged. I do, however, agree that a tank-heavy guard army could be painful; enough AP3 large blasts to work over your infantry, and enough multi-lasers and autocannons to chip away at those wraithguard.

Best of luck, let us know how the wraithzilla serves you!


EDIT: score one for me, I was right

Running not making short ranged foot slogging guns NOT short ranged?

You do realize that if you run you can't shoot, right? If I have to run to get into range to shoot, but can't shoot if I run, then what's the point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sliggoth wrote:And the prisms would be more surviveable against this melta fire in what way? Especially if the prisms arent running holofields.

Because I don't have to destroy a prism to make it worthless. I only have to take out the main gun to make a prism totally worthless. I get 2 shots at it. If I roll one 3 and anything higher, I still beat the prism.

Take your chances, save some points and skip the holo fields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mortetvie wrote:I played 2 vulkan armies first and second round and had no problem, also remember that if the wraithlord gets a cover save (like fromhaving 50% blocked from wraithguard) then the meltas are even less effective.

It comes down to knowing where and how to use your stuff against the oponents, that is what skill is all about! Not to mention, with objectives, that only matters second and 3rd round.

For the second round, the objectives can be placed enar each other-we each get to place 3 and one scoring unit can claim multiple objectives so...2 scoring units are enough granted they do not die!

On the third round, same thing, the scoring units must not die and if I kill the enemies scoring units, guarantee win.

The list can work, it worked really well in the previous round and so we'll see who I fight because I think that will make more of a difference than the missions.

Outside of the seer council, you have zero mobility. Everything but the council is foot slogging. Outside of the bl's you have nothing to seriously threaten av14, and you only have 3 of them. It is very difficult to get mc's cover saves, especially from land speeders.

The seer council is the only thing you have that is a threat to any decent vulkan general/list. It's tough and nasty. The rest of the list is...meh.

@Weasal

Though some of your points are valid most of what you said shows theory hammer at it's highest. It's a case of picking out certain parts of the army that are "not" good while not considering the army as a whole. I'll address your points first then move into more specifics on my above comment.

1) Running means those 12" guns are going to be in range generally on turn 2 instead of turn 3. That's a whole extra turn of blasting away which makes a large difference to the game. Hence running making short ranged weapons better.

2) Your exactly right on the prisms and those are some of the reasons I also advised him to drop them in favor of his Wraithlords

3) Wraithguard are very, very tall. The come up to well over the waist of a Wraithlord meaning that you would have to sit higher than the wraithguard next to it for him not to get cover. It's the same tactic I use with my tyrannids and it does work if your focusing on it. As for the speeders it would take 9 speeders to kill all 3 wraithlords (if your lucky) in a single turn. Then all 9 of those speeders will die in the next shooting phase. People forget how purley nasty wraithguard guns are at taking out vehicles of any AV.

The thing is that every unit in his army can kill tanks. Every unit in his army can lay some serious hurt down on anything that isn't a TH/SS terminator. And even those he can bog down for life with the council.

He's got an absolutely reliable cover save for everyone until you get within 12" of his front line since you won't be able to see the harlies and the Wraithguard will be rerolling armor/cover saves until your about to get within 12" in which case he'll shift the saves to the harlies.

Adding the Seer council to his list is even nastier as it gives another very high survivability unit that can wipe out tanks in multi-charges while being safe from return fire.

Biker Vulcan lists actually have quite a bit to worry about against this list though not as much as the LR heavy armies. The biggest threat to this army is generally the really, really nasty shooty armies which might not make as large of an appearance this round due to the scenarios. It's an army built around mutual support and it does an incredible job with every unit making another unit tougher.

Hulksmash wrote:@Weasal

Though some of your points are valid most of what you said shows theory hammer at it's highest. It's a case of picking out certain parts of the army that are "not" good while not considering the army as a whole. I'll address your points first then move into more specifics on my above comment.

1) Running means those 12" guns are going to be in range generally on turn 2 instead of turn 3. That's a whole extra turn of blasting away which makes a large difference to the game. Hence running making short ranged weapons better.

2) Your exactly right on the prisms and those are some of the reasons I also advised him to drop them in favor of his Wraithlords

3) Wraithguard are very, very tall. The come up to well over the waist of a Wraithlord meaning that you would have to sit higher than the wraithguard next to it for him not to get cover. It's the same tactic I use with my tyrannids and it does work if your focusing on it. As for the speeders it would take 9 speeders to kill all 3 wraithlords (if your lucky) in a single turn. Then all 9 of those speeders will die in the next shooting phase. People forget how purley nasty wraithguard guns are at taking out vehicles of any AV.

The thing is that every unit in his army can kill tanks. Every unit in his army can lay some serious hurt down on anything that isn't a TH/SS terminator. And even those he can bog down for life with the council.

He's got an absolutely reliable cover save for everyone until you get within 12" of his front line since you won't be able to see the harlies and the Wraithguard will be rerolling armor/cover saves until your about to get within 12" in which case he'll shift the saves to the harlies.

Adding the Seer council to his list is even nastier as it gives another very high survivability unit that can wipe out tanks in multi-charges while being safe from return fire.

Biker Vulcan lists actually have quite a bit to worry about against this list though not as much as the LR heavy armies. The biggest threat to this army is generally the really, really nasty shooty armies which might not make as large of an appearance this round due to the scenarios. It's an army built around mutual support and it does an incredible job with every unit making another unit tougher.

Well at least someone is giving me specific points that I can address.

1) Sure, go ahead and run and let vulkan assault termies eat his guard. How in the world can he advance his only 2 scoring units when he is relying on keeping at least on in the rear near all of his placed objectives.

2) Ok

3) If hey only come up to the waste, I know my land speeders are higher than that. No cover save from my speeders. And since his guard only has an effective range of 18", he will need to keep the lords at least 6" behind them and not up close, making it even more difficult for the lords to get cover saves from his guard from mass land speeders.

4) Sure, his stuff can kill tanks. But his most numerous is his guard with only an effective range of 18". That's almost auto fail vs assault termies in land raiders. I would expect most competent vulkan lists to contain at least 2 such units.

5) I can see his harlies, on average, 14" away. Two mere tac squads starting 24" away will simply delete one harlie squad. unless they are in cover and even then they will be seriously mauled. Harlies just don't cut it in a 5th ed environment. This list might have been good in 4th, but the only saving grace it has now is the seer council.

6) Seer council is awesome. No doubt there. Hence my statement that this is the only unit he has that is a threat to vulkan lists.

7) Biker vulkan lists might have issues with this list. However 8+ land speeder vulkan lists are going to have it for breakfast, all dice being equal. Very limited mobility and very limited (almost non-existant) ability to deal with av14 either at range or at least beyond effective land raider assault range is a big problem.

At least the second mission will allow him to use permanent night fight rules...