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1) you act like the wraitguard are going to be in front of the harlies. They won't be and the harlies can then bounce out of combat leaving you to be shot.

3) Actually it is a cover save because, like I said, they come up well over the waist.

4) This is something you have to see to understand how the list works. But basically this comes down to how you play the WG. Patience means he'll get to knock out your LR while the Harlies create a barrier that keeps you from charging the WG.

5) You'll be lucky to get an single shooting phase against Harlies, but at most one since maybe you'll see over average or he'll roll a 1-2 on his fleet roll. Statistically you won't be able to kill them or even put a major dent in them before they are in the middle of you.

7) 8 Speeders=3.5 Wounds without Coversaves, which they'll have. How will that eat them for breakfast? Meanwhile the WL's are knocking 2-3 down per shooting phase.

It's one of those lists you actually have to see played. I've seen quite a few and built quite a few lists like this myself and it's really about knowing how to play it that makes all the difference. On paper it doesn't look that impressive but the way it functions together it's just gross.

Don't forget he can redeploy most of his army thanks to Eldrad which is just plain irritating and it'll help him dictate the game from round one.

imweasel wrote:
Well at least someone is giving me specific points that I can address.

1) Sure, go ahead and run and let vulkan assault termies eat his guard. How in the world can he advance his only 2 scoring units when he is relying on keeping at least on in the rear near all of his placed objectives.

2) Ok

3) If hey only come up to the waste, I know my land speeders are higher than that. No cover save from my speeders. And since his guard only has an effective range of 18", he will need to keep the lords at least 6" behind them and not up close, making it even more difficult for the lords to get cover saves from his guard from mass land speeders.

4) Sure, his stuff can kill tanks. But his most numerous is his guard with only an effective range of 18". That's almost auto fail vs assault termies in land raiders. I would expect most competent vulkan lists to contain at least 2 such units.

5) I can see his harlies, on average, 14" away. Two mere tac squads starting 24" away will simply delete one harlie squad. unless they are in cover and even then they will be seriously mauled. Harlies just don't cut it in a 5th ed environment. This list might have been good in 4th, but the only saving grace it has now is the seer council.

6) Seer council is awesome. No doubt there. Hence my statement that this is the only unit he has that is a threat to vulkan lists.

7) Biker vulkan lists might have issues with this list. However 8+ land speeder vulkan lists are going to have it for breakfast, all dice being equal. Very limited mobility and very limited (almost non-existant) ability to deal with av14 either at range or at least beyond effective land raider assault range is a big problem.

At least the second mission will allow him to use permanent night fight rules...

First of all, maybe weasel and I should play a game so he gets a feel for what it looks like to lose to wraithguard army =).

1.) How do you plan on assaulting wraithguard with harlequins or seer council in the way? I played 2 vulkan assault terminator armies first 2 rounds in previous round and they bounced off my army(also, if you are relying on land raiders to deliver terminators-bright lances kill landraiders dead) Incidentally, wychblades are good at killing landraiders.

2.) yeah, wraithlords can't be stuned so they can always shoot, hooray!

3.) ok, if you have tons of mobile meltaguns, I might not care if my wraithlords get cover saves or not-if you want to exchage killpoints evenly why not, I have an easier chance to kil landspeeders from anything in my army than you do to kill wraithlords. Also, what is stopping me from actually physically putting my wraithlords behind cover? Like what a crazy idea!

4.) I don't rely on my wraithguard to kill landraiders before they deliver terminators, I rely on brightlances and wychblades... brightlances have 36" range, much better than 18!

5.) I don't know what kind of math you are using but if you are 24" away, how can you kill me if you roll on average 14"? I've never had a problem with harlequins getting shot unless you drive up in a transport and shoot at harlequins at close range, even then with a re-rollable 4+ cover save you are not going to do as much damage as you hoped! Then the harlequins will charge you and kill you dead.

6.) seer council is nifty

7.) I don't understand what you are talking about here. I think you can have max 9 landspeeders, 3 per suqadron right? Do you actually play the game and roll dice or do you just make stuff up? 3 twin linked multi meltas with 4+ to wound wraithlord is not a guarantee kill as you only wound half of the shots, so you need 18 shots that hit to statistically kill 3 wraithlords-so how do you plan on doing that with 9 landspeeders that will die horribly to return fire? ALso, remember that brightlances outrange speeders so... maybe you'll lose some on the way and also brightlances eat landraiders so there goes the landraider assault thing...also see point 1, there is nothing to charge that you can kill outright with assault terminators if the army is played right.

Well, I just typed all this out because I was bored and also vaguely annoyed by someone who doesn't know how to play a wraithzilla list well or has never played against a good one. Oh well!

A Vendetta is virtually guaranteed to do at least 1.5 wounds to it, from 48" away. It can easily do 3 - more odds of that than of none.

Also, it costs equivalently, oh, and has a much better range and RoF.

Manticores laugh at Harlies, and WG.

Speeders' Heavy Flamers roast the Harlies, then the Guard fall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 3 Lances is not a lot, especially at 2500.

Certainly not enough to kill 3 Crusaders, plus Speeders.

Especially with Blessed Hull...

If they have blessed hull Elessar then they don't have 3+ Invulnerable saves which means they are a lot less scary.

Yes Manticores are scary for harlies but to be fair most people won't be bringing manticores at 2500 since they can fit more LRBT's in and if they do take artillery it should be to flush bad people out of cover (colossus).

If your close enough to roast the harlies you were in range to get charged by them last turn or shot by the WG so odds are you lost some speeders the last turn.

Vendettas are very, very good against this army since they are so high nothing gets cover but it generally takes 2 turns. In which return fire will kill the vendetta, unless you are running 3-4 which most people don't do.

I agree that 3 lances at 2500 aren't that many but he doesn't really need them based on the fact that every unit in his army can kill a tank.

Hulksmash wrote:If they have blessed hull Elessar then they don't have 3+ Invulnerable saves which means they are a lot less scary.

Yes Manticores are scary for harlies but to be fair most people won't be bringing manticores at 2500 since they can fit more LRBT's in and if they do take artillery it should be to flush bad people out of cover (colossus).

If your close enough to roast the harlies you were in range to get charged by them last turn or shot by the WG so odds are you lost some speeders the last turn.

Vendettas are very, very good against this army since they are so high nothing gets cover but it generally takes 2 turns. In which return fire will kill the vendetta, unless you are running 3-4 which most people don't do.

I agree that 3 lances at 2500 aren't that many but he doesn't really need them based on the fact that every unit in his army can kill a tank.

My speeders are modeled higher than wraith guard. I will be shooting over their heads. He has THREE bright lances anyways. Assuming no guide, on average he hits with 2, generating 1 glance/pen. I would hardly call that a reliable way to kill one land raider, let alone multiple land raiders. Loaded with assault termies. With an effective maximum of 20" assault range, 2" beyond your maximum effective shooting range of your most numerous 'anti-tank' weapons.

A single harlie squad gets killed by 2 tac squads shooting them and they can start 24" away prior to shooting. 12" move in a rhino, 2" disembark, 12" rapid fire. That's a dead harlie squad. As far as I can recall, harlies can only assault 18", unless there is some super sekret rule out there I am unaware of.

And being able to kill a tank from the guard with a shooting range of 12", where people even admit they have to run in the shooting phase, thus not allowing them to shoot, just to get in range is absolutely amazing fail. I can't believe that this is even a consideration of 'anti-tank'.

The entire necron codex is capable of 'anti-tank', does anyone still believe that the guass rule is still 'effective' anti-tank in 5th ed?

Like I said and agreed with, seer council jet bikes are awesome and the only, single unit in this entire list that should concern, let's just say a competent, vulkan general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mortetvie wrote:

First of all, maybe weasel and I should play a game so he gets a feel for what it looks like to lose to wraithguard army =).

1.) How do you plan on assaulting wraithguard with harlequins or seer council in the way? I played 2 vulkan assault terminator armies first 2 rounds in previous round and they bounced off my army(also, if you are relying on land raiders to deliver terminators-bright lances kill landraiders dead) Incidentally, wychblades are good at killing landraiders.

2.) yeah, wraithlords can't be stuned so they can always shoot, hooray!

3.) ok, if you have tons of mobile meltaguns, I might not care if my wraithlords get cover saves or not-if you want to exchage killpoints evenly why not, I have an easier chance to kil landspeeders from anything in my army than you do to kill wraithlords. Also, what is stopping me from actually physically putting my wraithlords behind cover? Like what a crazy idea!

4.) I don't rely on my wraithguard to kill landraiders before they deliver terminators, I rely on brightlances and wychblades... brightlances have 36" range, much better than 18!

5.) I don't know what kind of math you are using but if you are 24" away, how can you kill me if you roll on average 14"? I've never had a problem with harlequins getting shot unless you drive up in a transport and shoot at harlequins at close range, even then with a re-rollable 4+ cover save you are not going to do as much damage as you hoped! Then the harlequins will charge you and kill you dead.

6.) seer council is nifty

7.) I don't understand what you are talking about here. I think you can have max 9 landspeeders, 3 per suqadron right? Do you actually play the game and roll dice or do you just make stuff up? 3 twin linked multi meltas with 4+ to wound wraithlord is not a guarantee kill as you only wound half of the shots, so you need 18 shots that hit to statistically kill 3 wraithlords-so how do you plan on doing that with 9 landspeeders that will die horribly to return fire? ALso, remember that brightlances outrange speeders so... maybe you'll lose some on the way and also brightlances eat landraiders so there goes the landraider assault thing...also see point 1, there is nothing to charge that you can kill outright with assault terminators if the army is played right.

Well, I just typed all this out because I was bored and also vaguely annoyed by someone who doesn't know how to play a wraithzilla list well or has never played against a good one. Oh well!

1) The seer council is the only thing I have issues with. It's tough. Please put it up front so I can shoot it. Thanks. You have 3 bright lances. that generates one glance/pen per turn. Not what I wouldn't call that killing 'land raiders dead'. Especially multiple land raiders.

2) Yippee. You can shoot 2 weapons. Counting the cost of one guard unit and one lord, I can take 2 highly mobile dire avenger squads (and if taken at a minimum) in wave serpents with tl bl's and cannons with over 100pts to spare. That's a win-win scenario right there.

3) So while you are hiding your wl's, your entire screening force does what? Screen them? I don't get it...

4) 3 bl's. I think the math says already what needs to be said. The blades are already a given conceded point.

5) Ok, I think some of the math is sinking in. I can be 24" away, roll up 12", disembark 2", rapid fire 12". Even with 4+ cover saves you live through one squad of shooting, but not 2. Eldrad, (is he still in the list?) can help with this, but there are ways (not reliable) to help counter that.

6) Already given and then some. Please keep bringing it up in an effort to shield the rest of the flaws in your army list.

7) THREE bright lances do not eat land raiders. Assuming I kill one lord, your odds of getting one glance pen on a raider is under 50%. And all this time I have not been counting any cover saves/smoke the land raiders might get in return. And if you are shooting my speeders with 6 shots a turn, of which 4 will hit, of which 3-4 will glance or pen, there's 8-9 speeders. That's 3 turns of shooting right there. Assuming the lords all survive, that's probably several more turns shooting to kill 2 land raiders. That's a tough call to make, but I'd give the edge to the marines at this point for anti-tank.

I typed this all out because someone who is apparently playing subpar generals/lists in 'ard boyz seems to think his list is fine.

imweasel wrote:
I typed this all out because someone who is apparently playing subpar generals/lists in 'ard boyz seems to think his list is fine.

First of all, barrage weapons still need to test to see harlequins.

Secondly, you are enforcing your opinion, and that is all so this discussion is moot and pointless to continue. Unless you somehow can manage to play a game with me, all this talk is pointless. My list may look sub par to you and you may be under the impression that I only play against sub par players (and played sub-par players in the 'ard boys) but hey, I also play TK in WHFB and consistantly beat the newer powergaming armies reletively well so maybe it's not about being sub par but just a good player?

This army is very strong and certain matchups make me work harder to pull the win out but this army is very forgiving/resilient and powerful. If you want to pick out the weaknesses and say "a million lascannon shots can down wraithlords so your list sucks" then sure, go for it. But you neglect the fact that a smart player knows where he is weak against a particular army and plays his army to deny the strengths of the enemy.

All the weaknesses or "problems" you find with my list are not accurately reflected in real game-play as it comes down to generalmanship rather than anything else.

You seem to also think that once you shoot at something with a re-rollable 4+ cover or invul save that you will kill it really easily, how do you figure? *sigh*

What I would run at Ard Boyz is very different.

I wouldn't fear Land Raiders, or Russes.

HQ

Prince Yriel;
Eye of Wrath, Spear of Twilight, Forceshield, PlasmaGrens - 155

Autarch;
Fusion Gun, Power Weapon, Mandiblasters, etc - 100


ELITES

5 Fire Dragons;
Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 215

5 Fire Dragons;
Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 215

5 Fire Dragons;
Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 215


TROOPS

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195


FAST ATTACK

Vyper Squadron;
Vyper: Bright Lance. - 75

Vyper Squadron;
Vyper: Bright Lance. - 75

Vyper Squadron;
Vyper: Eldar Missile Launcher
Vyper: Eldar Missile Launcher. - 130


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism;
Prism Cannon, t-l Shuriken Catapults. - 115

Fire Prism;
Prism Cannon, t-l Shuriken Catapults. - 115

Fire Prism;
Prism Cannon, t-l Shuriken Catapults. - 115

TOTAL: 2500

@ imweasel Hmm, I do an analysis of why 2 WL would be more surviveable against 10+ vulkan meltas than 3 prisms would be and you somehow seem to think that I was proposing that he take prisms.....


Let me try and lay it out more plainly: WLs are more surviveable against a vulkan melta list. ESPECIALLY when you suggest taking naked prisms. Two WL will be more difficult to remove from combat than three naked prisms.

Vulkan lists cause a lot of problems for many armies, thats one of the reasons that they are so common. Vulkan being extemely cheap for his benefits doesnt hurt matters either. But a list that has high toughness models instead of armor is certainly going to take more effort from the vulkan player to crack.

Thats one reason this list is interesting, it is not an armor spam list so it will not be what most armies have prepared against.



Sliggoth

mortetvie wrote:
1.) How do you plan on assaulting wraithguard with harlequins or seer council in the way? I played 2 vulkan assault terminator armies first 2 rounds in previous round and they bounced off my army(also, if you are relying on land raiders to deliver terminators-bright lances kill landraiders dead) Incidentally, wychblades are good at killing landraiders.

Tank shock. Or are you seriously going to try to Death or Glory with Harlequins or Wychblades? Incidentally playing so many footsloggers really handicaps your Jetseers; supporting your army really cuts down on their mobility.

You're playing a Big Rock army. Any opponent capable of dealing with T6-8 models is fine against this list, any opponent that isn't capable will be crushed. In general, R2 'Ard Boyz should see a lot more people capable of dealing than not capable.

Assault Terminator squads will devour you alive. A single charge into your WG should see ALL of a squad die. Packing so many models so closely together for the "screen" or whatever makes you far more vulnerable to poor combat resolution morale checks. He could put one model into the Seer Council and the others into the WG, and there's a very good chance that you lose combat by 5 or more and your guys are running off the table. Falling back JetSeers = 3d6" of not fun.

Three Bright Lances isn't nearly enough long range firepower to slow down multiple Land Raiders.

@Elessar

That is an excellent mech list that would give a lot of people fits. It's not something I'd like to run but I can see it's effectiveness in this edition.

@Iamweasal

What are you playing at the semi's? I'm just curious to see what a non-subpar list looks like from your perspective.

sourclams wrote:

mortetvie wrote:
1.) How do you plan on assaulting wraithguard with harlequins or seer council in the way? I played 2 vulkan assault terminator armies first 2 rounds in previous round and they bounced off my army(also, if you are relying on land raiders to deliver terminators-bright lances kill landraiders dead) Incidentally, wychblades are good at killing landraiders.

Tank shock. Or are you seriously going to try to Death or Glory with Harlequins or Wychblades? Incidentally playing so many footsloggers really handicaps your Jetseers; supporting your army really cuts down on their mobility.

You're playing a Big Rock army. Any opponent capable of dealing with T6-8 models is fine against this list, any opponent that isn't capable will be crushed. In general, R2 'Ard Boyz should see a lot more people capable of dealing than not capable.

Assault Terminator squads will devour you alive. A single charge into your WG should see ALL of a squad die. Packing so many models so closely together for the "screen" or whatever makes you far more vulnerable to poor combat resolution morale checks. He could put one model into the Seer Council and the others into the WG, and there's a very good chance that you lose combat by 5 or more and your guys are running off the table. Falling back JetSeers = 3d6" of not fun.

Three Bright Lances isn't nearly enough long range firepower to slow down multiple Land Raiders.

Sourclams:
1.) Well, just so you know, my harlequins have fusion pistols wich are basically melta pistols, so I'd sure death or glory with a s8+2d6 hit! Also, if you plan on tankshocking (wich is maximum of 12" You would have been in wraithcannon range the previous turn wich means I woulda killed landraider with wraithguns, charged troops inside with harlequins-so do you have another suggestion besides tank-shock? In regards to the seer council, they can act independantly of the rest of my army and attack the less mobile units in another person's army... like maybe a tactical squad holding an objective or some predator in the back, who knows? I don't HAVE to keep the seer council near my main force-it comes down to where need them most so I don't see what your comment about my army being footslogging has to do with the jetlock council being a good addition to the army.

2.) So, what kind of armies are good at dealing with an army of predominantly t6/8 models with re-rollable saves? None via shooting that I can tell, tau come closest but I don't think anyone is playing tau!

3.) your point here is based on a ton of assumptions. You assume you will be able to multi charge wraithguard AND something else. Let me demonstrate:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX<--- Harlequins with (re-rollable invulnerable saves)

OOOOOOOOOOO<---wraithguard

How do you get to O with a multicharge? You can't!

Now, I agree, assault terminators are good at killing wraithguard wich is why I don't intend to let them charge wraithguard. I think that sollution works well, how about you?

In regards to multiple landraiders, 3 brightlances might kill 1 or two, who knows-if they do I think that is a bonus. Either way, the landraiders can sit back and get shot as I advance or they have to come up and be aggressive and try to charge and blow through my harlequins. Either way, it will take a lot of luck to kill the entire harlequin squad and in the end, the harlequins will hit and run and that assault terminator squad is looking at 6 flamer templates and tons of other shooting and another charge by harlequins or a seer council wich will kill the termiantors by sheer number of wounds taken if anything else... I love doom! =D

Elessar wrote:What I would run at Ard Boyz is very different.

I wouldn't fear Land Raiders, or Russes.

HQ

Prince Yriel;
Eye of Wrath, Spear of Twilight, Forceshield, PlasmaGrens - 155

Autarch;
Fusion Gun, Power Weapon, Mandiblasters, etc - 100


ELITES

5 Fire Dragons;
Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 215

5 Fire Dragons;
Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 215

5 Fire Dragons;
Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 215


TROOPS

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195

5 Dire Avengers;
Avenger Catapult
Wave Serpent: t-l Bright Lance. - 195


FAST ATTACK

Vyper Squadron;
Vyper: Bright Lance. - 75

Vyper Squadron;
Vyper: Bright Lance. - 75

Vyper Squadron;
Vyper: Eldar Missile Launcher
Vyper: Eldar Missile Launcher. - 130


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism;
Prism Cannon, t-l Shuriken Catapults. - 115

Fire Prism;
Prism Cannon, t-l Shuriken Catapults. - 115

Fire Prism;
Prism Cannon, t-l Shuriken Catapults. - 115

TOTAL: 2500

Now this is something someone can work with at a 'ard boyz tourney. While I don't agree with all the unit choices, the vast majority of this list is solid.

The rest of the differences come to differing play styles and tactics. While I could find faults in this list, this list is much easier to defend by the poster than some fething pile of stink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:@Elessar

That is an excellent mech list that would give a lot of people fits. It's not something I'd like to run but I can see it's effectiveness in this edition.

@Iamweasal

What are you playing at the semi's? I'm just curious to see what a non-subpar list looks like from your perspective.

Not sure if it's a non-subpar list or not, but I switched to marines awhile back and I only play one army at a time.

HQ
Vulkan
Librarian w/termie armor using null zone and avenger

Troops
2 x 10 man tac squad w/melta/mm sarge w/chainsword/bp in rhino
1 x 10 man tac squad w/flamer/mm sarge w/chainsword/bp in rhino

Elite
1 x 6 man assault termie squad w/th/ss in lrc w/mm
1 x 6 man assault termie squad w/th/ss

Fast Attack
2 x 3 landspeeders w/mm/hf
1 x 2 landspeeders w/mm/hf

Heavy Support
1 lrc w/mm

Mechdar w/seer council jet bikes is a tough matchup. Mirror match obviously. IG w/6 vendettas and lrbt's are also tough.

The seer council in the op's list is the only unit I truly respect. The rest I can pretty much ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mortetvie wrote:1.) Well, just so you know, my harlequins have fusion pistols wich are basically melta pistols, so I'd sure death or glory with a s8+2d6 hit! Also, if you plan on tankshocking (wich is maximum of 12" You would have been in wraithcannon range the previous turn wich means I woulda killed landraider with wraithguns, charged troops inside with harlequins-so do you have another suggestion besides tank-shock? In regards to the seer council, they can act independantly of the rest of my army and attack the less mobile units in another person's army... like maybe a tactical squad holding an objective or some predator in the back, who knows? I don't HAVE to keep the seer council near my main force-it comes down to where need them most so I don't see what your comment about my army being footslogging has to do with the jetlock council being a good addition to the army.

2.) So, what kind of armies are good at dealing with an army of predominantly t6/8 models with re-rollable saves? None via shooting that I can tell, tau come closest but I don't think anyone is playing tau!

3.) your point here is based on a ton of assumptions. You assume you will be able to multi charge wraithguard AND something else. Let me demonstrate:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX<--- Harlequins with (re-rollable invulnerable saves)

OOOOOOOOOOO<---wraithguard

How do you get to O with a multicharge? You can't!

Now, I agree, assault terminators are good at killing wraithguard wich is why I don't intend to let them charge wraithguard. I think that sollution works well, how about you?

In regards to multiple landraiders, 3 brightlances might kill 1 or two, who knows-if they do I think that is a bonus. Either way, the landraiders can sit back and get shot as I advance or they have to come up and be aggressive and try to charge and blow through my harlequins. Either way, it will take a lot of luck to kill the entire harlequin squad and in the end, the harlequins will hit and run and that assault terminator squad is looking at 6 flamer templates and tons of other shooting and another charge by harlequins or a seer council wich will kill the termiantors by sheer number of wounds taken if anything else... I love doom! =D

Why in the world do I have to tank shock your harlies with my landraiders? You know I have these nifty little things called land speeders in my list that can move just fine to tank shock things in front of my raiders, letting my raiders move 12", termies disembark 2" and assault 6".

Also, how in the world are you getting all the re-roll armor saves on your t6/8 models? Are you seriously not fortuning your seer council? You have 8 units to fortune with a maximum of 4 fortunes. Are you seriously telling me that you are NOT fortuning your 2 harlie squads and your seer squad, thus taking up the VAST majority of your fortunes? Ever hear of psychic hood? Sheesh...

There are multiple ways to take care of the harlies. Just running up and flaming them is pretty solid or shooting them with tac squads or a plethora of other options.

Just as a heads up Iamweasal you can't tank shock w/land speeders. They aren't classified as tanks. So you'd still have to tank shock with the LR's to clear the way to the WG. Basically he fortunes what he needs to per turn meaning that he'll manage to get at least 2 off since your hood might stop one when you are within 24".

As for your list it's pretty standard. It's an internet list and if you play it well then maybe it'll work though I would add Tau as a bad match up for that list since they can pretty easily take out your LR's and all your speeders in a single shooting phase.

All in all I'd refrain from calling a list stink unless you'd played it and the player before. Internet lists aren't the only winning lists out there

Weasel:

I would have either both harlequin units or both wraithguard untis fortuned from eldrad (depending on what is more important) and I have a farseer with the seercouncil to fortune that, so I'd have 3 things fortuned. Also, note that for your psychihc powers, runes of warding will make you take psychic tests on 3d6 (not 2d6) and any roll of 12 or higher will make you take a perils of the warp test.

Also, you said "The seer council in the op's list is the only unit I truly respect. The rest I can pretty much ignore."
I don't see how you can ignore 20 t6 models when they are on the objectives. You wll have to deal with them sooner or later. More dangerous when they can kill everything in your army reletively easily with their guns (they are no slouches in close combat with ws/i5 from enhance)-your assault terminators are the only things in your list you have that can effectively deal with them and everything in my army can effectively deal with your terminators (not to mention the rest of your army). Just sayin...

a few points:

1.) Your 8 landspeeders are not enough to even kill 1 wraithlord a turn. Lets say all 8 hit, that is only 4 wounds done on average and I would still get cover if I am in cover so that is 2 wounds saved. I don't HAVE to keep my wraithlords in the open mind you. ALso, wraithlords have longer range than your speeders so I could down them with return fire reletively easily-av10 goes down easy! Saying your landspeeders are going to own my wraithlords is not realistic.

Another thing to consider is that if you are in range of my wraithlords, my wraithguard are in range of you and 10 wraithgun shots are more than enough to down a squadron of any vehicles.

2.) About your landraiders, 3 brightlance shots per turn is usually enough to either destroy or imobolize your landraiders or do something.

You would move up one turn and pop smoke, I'd imagine and then try to zoom up and unload terminators and charge next turn. Fine, that might work but you'd end up charging harlequins who may down a terminator or two on your charge and then hit and run out and well, your terminator squads are dead after that. 6 3+ invul save models will fail saves eventually... Just because you have assault termiantors in landraiders does not mean you'll automatically win or get a great charge off.

Also, what is stopping me from sending my fortuned jetlock council at a landraider and killing it forcing you into a bad situation wich is theoryhammer in a sense but you'd waste time with the seer council who is more survivable than your terminators and my wraithguard/harlequins are free to own the rest of your army and claim objectives.


3.) taking care of my harlequins. Your sollutions are all based on assumptions. You assume I'm going to be dumb with them and let you get in range with landspeeders to flame them or you assume you can drive up with rhinos and get out and kill them with rapid fire (assuming you even roll far enough to see them). Well, good luck with all of that theory hammer stuff.

Where do you live? Maybe we should get a game in and put theoryhammer to warhammer =D. (I live in southern CA)

Nice list, just hope you don't play against one of the few of us Dark Eldar players that made it to the semi's. Wraithlords hate lance spam and agonizers, wraithguard hate dissintegrators, and harlies hate wyches.

yeah, wraithzilla hates agonizers in general. All in all it comes down to how well one can avoid the wyches that get the 12" charge and taking out transports =). The second missions would be interesting...

If the players are both evenly matched it might even just come down to dice and objectives!

Im looking forward to playing you in the semis with my blood angel list. I think i have a great chance against this list. Especially if i play you in the second mission. Night Fight would really suck for you since i dont shoot. Lets see how we do. Im also looking forward to meeting hulksmash hes been cool with me here.

mortetvie wrote:

Another thing to consider is that if you are in range of my wraithlords, my wraithguard are in range of you and 10 wraithgun shots are more than enough to down a squadron of any vehicles.

Don't care about the theoryhammer because I've long since learned that internet Taktiks discussions are pointless.

This, however, can be examined factually:

3 Brightlances with BS4.

2 shots hit on average.

Of those two shots, you will get 1/6 glances and 1/3 penetrations.

Since you need to do a 6 up on the glance or a 4 up on the penetrations to stop the crusaders, that's 1/6*1/6+1/3*1/2= 7/36s results stopping a Land Raider in a single shooting phase with all of your Wraith Lords.

Your stacked formation combined with the BL 36" range means that you likely won't be able to fire the first turn. Either that or he goes first and pops smoke, so that's between 0 and 7/72 results first turn, or less than 10% probability in your favor.

So that's basically two turns where he's guaranteed to move with impunity.

I really question what sort of lists you play if you think 3 bright lances, especially at 2500 points, is anywhere close to "enough".

I don't rely on brightlances to down tanks, I rely on my wraithguard wich get in range on turn 2 or 3 to destroy tanks, the wraithlord shooting s pretty much firesupport so that I have at least SOMETHING to throw at the enemy and sometimes I get lucky so *shrug*. If my wraithlords down av14 tanks via shooting its just a bonus but I don't plan for it or build my army relying on that to happen.

If I get a lucky pen or so on turn 1 or 2, that puts a big damper on things, after all, this is a dice game.

All in all, the point of all of this is that he won't be able to charge my wraithguard and he'll either trade killpoints at best or at worst lose his assault terminator squads to the return shooting/counterattack and the assault marines are all he has that can deal with my wraithguard.

Julnlecs:
I'd love to play against bloodangels, if we don't play at 'ardboys maybe we can get a game in for fun, I usually play at the LA battle bunker in westminister. PM me if you are up for it!

Lots of good lists in this thread. I still miss the days when people basically played for fun instead of for prizes & money.

Mortetvie wat do you think of the list im taking to ard boyz?

I always play for fun but the money and prizes are a bonus! Hopefully I can bring some Glory to Christ while I'm at it, sometimes I get caught up with the whole pride thing, though =(.

Jul, posted on your list-would be interesting to see how things turn out!

I agree, my list is better. Thanks.

Incase anyone cared, my army list did really well in the 'ard boys with 56 battle points.

The first game was a draw but to put it mildly, my dice rolled as if fortune made me re-roll saves I pased...Terrible rolling. Played an ork player with 6 battle waggons, death rollas are brutal with the ruling they allowed (2d6 s10 hits if you death or glory or 1d6 s10 hits if you don't). 22-22 kp, sad day! Especially when wraithlord fails to destroy one in death or glory with his pen hit and 6 wraithguard models fail to kill any tanks.

Rest of the game wraithguard killed tons with thier shooting and held tons up in combat-even killed tons in combat actually.

Second game was vs a sister of battle, demon hunter ally, ig ally list-got massacre on him for second senario.

Third game was against a brutal dual lash chaos list, massacred him too.

For the most part, when the enemy hit my lines, they just boucned off me or their momentum stopped and wraithguard just held while the rest of the army killed them. All in all, I wish I kept avatar and scorpion unit and added a warpspider unit but c'est la vie.

To be fair that is how Deff Rollas always work against infantry. The ruling they made at the tournament was for it to affect vehicles as well.....

Yeah, but losing a warithlord and 6 wraithguard without even imobolizing one in death or gory alone?! COME ON! 3+! =(

Of course, you aren't AP1...so you're rubbish against vehicles.

well, wraithlord penetrated the tank but rolled a 1, needed a 3+. Wraithguard glance on 3-4 and pen on 5-6 so they need a 3+ to do anything to the tank followed by either a 3+ on pen or 5+ on glancing.

The thing is, 6 tries should have done something! =(

All in all, the tournament was cool, it taught me to be a better player in many ways so I can't complain about that! Sometimes we get lazy as gamers/generals eh?

Well then, a positive experience - by definition good.

Wow mort,

You're ballsy. I wouldn't have tried a Death or Glory with the wraithguard or lord, even though the lord only needs a 3+. The risk of dieing horribly is too scary for me. (And I always fail, btw.)