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So I know a popular tactic for mech lists is to sit a 10 man marine squad in a rhino for the majority of the game so that they have "safe" scoring units.

However most everyone is running these as 10 man squads instead of 5 man squads. I would like to weigh the pros and cons of each and see what you guys think is the better option.

5 man squad
cheaper in points by almost half
Dies easier if they get out of transport
No heavy weapon

10 man squad
packs a punch if/when it disembarks
more expensive
Heavy weapon

So basically you could take a 10 man squad in a rhino with upgrades for 205
or you could take 2 5 man squads in rhinos for 250
45 more points, 2 regular weapons, both troops choices are fulfilled. Two rhinos.

I am really starting to think to cut these squads to the bare minimum and packing more firepower into my lists.

Thoughts/opinions?

5 man for tank hunter squads and objective contesting. You can roll around taking potshots with the melta from the safety of the Rhino.

10 man (unless you're going for maximum armor saturation) for anti-infantry duty, objective holding and assaulting weakly held obj. Roll up an unload on a juicy target.

Take a 5man blood angels tactical squad with one meltagun in a razorback.

175pts but your also netting yourself 30pts worth of a death company model.

Well worthwhile.

All depends on how you structure your given army. With lots of dreadnoughts and a MotF; a couple scout squads may serve you better.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Wolves can take a special weapon (Melta,Plasma, Flamer) with less than ten models.

Vanilla marines can't, hence why alot of the vanilla builds include 10 man tac squads in rhinos.

If you are playing one of the divergent chapters than there is something to be said for 5 man squads in a razorback if you spam them.

whitedragon wrote:Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Wolves can take a special weapon (Melta,Plasma, Flamer) with less than ten models.

Vanilla marines can't, hence why alot of the vanilla builds include 10 man tac squads in rhinos.

If you are playing one of the divergent chapters than there is something to be said for 5 man squads in a razorback if you spam them.

ah very true. I guess I'm too use to playing Dark angels to have noticed the switch in the new SM book.

Now what you could do for Vanilla Marines is that you max out the Squad, and split them up into 2 Combat Squads and put the Heavy Weapon in a position to fire whilst your 5 Man Special Weapon squad can ride in a Razorback.

This is weird, Timmah. For two days I've been thinking of making this exact post, but about vanilla marines. Here's what I though of:

Especially in smaller point games, the burden of those massive decked out tac squads is huge. 2 of them is a third of your points in a 1500 point game, 3 of them is half, with 2 and 3 usually being considered the minimum number of scoring units that's competitive depending on your playstyle.

So they really create a situation where, in small point games, after you load up on tac squads you pretty much have to fill up the rest of your army with the stripped-down cheap units (speeders, whirlwinds, basic dreads, dakka preds...). You can't have any of the hard-hitting elite or specialized units available because the tac squads are eating up all your points.

And you don't really get much for your tac squad points at the 1000-1500 point levels. I mean the firepower of a full tac squad doesn't scale well to games that small compared with what other armies can get for the same points.

So one possible solution for vanilla marines is just the basic 5-man tac squad.

In a rhino with no upgrades, they're a basic scoring bunker that drives around and holds objectives.

But I think a better alternative is to spend points where you're allowed to directly on the kinds of firepower you can get even though you don't have 10 marines.

15 points and you can put a combi-melta on the sergeant and upgrade the rhino to a HB razorback. Maybe meltabombs on the sergeant too. Now it's an antitank unit with some long-range antitroop fire, still for about half the cost of a full tac squad, so you can spam 4 or 5 such squads and still have more points left over than you would with 3 full tac squads.

A few more points will put an assault cannon on the razor. There's also always the option to put a powerfist on the sergeant. Going with 5-man squads uses the available options to create a cheap scoring unit--not as durable as the full tac squad, but you can have twice as many.

Then, in the small point games, that leaves enough points in your roster to get things like command squads, veterans, terminators, venerables, landraiders--the things that can really tip the balance of a small point game because of how they scale.

Still theoryhammer at this point, but planning to give it a try.

Yea especially considering the cheapened cost of razorbacks, you can basically field 15 marines and 3 razorbacks and save points over 20 marines and 2 rhinos.

I really think the razorbacks present much more of a threat that your opponent at least has to think about. More targets in a mech army is a good thing.

Right now I am running the 20 marines/2 rhinos but I am really thinking of switching over. Basically you lose 5 marines and gain 3 mobile heavy bolters.


I guess right now my main problem with it is this:

When my marines do need to get out and fry a unit, a 5 man squad does basically nothing, where a 10 man squad can kill 2-3 MEQ's (rapid firing), a 5 man squad will be lucky to kill 1-2.
And if said squad you are shooting at is a 10 man squad, your basically screwed.

But you lose 2 free heavy weapons and possibly 2 free specials (or 3 melta's for 15pts). Just a thought.

Swings and roundabouts really.

It also depends on who you are using:

If you are using any of the Special Characters (except Pedro Kantor), you might want to use the 10 man squads in Rhinos.

If you use Kantor, you can afford to use smaller squads in Razorbacks as your Sternguard are scoring units.

Hulksmash wrote:But you lose 2 free heavy weapons and possibly 2 free specials (or 3 melta's for 15pts). Just a thought.

Hulk is right, Flav. A combat squad'ed Tac squad gets the free weapons so the heavy weapon team can sit back while the rhino/razorback team can drive around, so you really don't lose that much except for the extra rhino in lower point games.

Yah I see Hulk's reasoning, but those weapons aren't really free. You have to buy the extra 80 points of marines to qualify for em.

My thinking is that, by saving 80 points each on 2 or 3 tac squads, that gives you enough points to buy something that's *better* than the extra marines with their heavies and specials.

Like for instance say you're building a White Scars list and, although your bikes are troops, you want a couple of mobile tac squads to cover objectives while your bikes zoom around. Well if you spend 500+ points on two fully decked out tac squads, that barely leaves enough for a couple of full units of bikes and a few support units in a 1500 point army. But if you shave off 160 points by reducing the tac squads to 5, then you can also afford the bike-mounted uber command squad--which is going to do a lot more for you than a couple of extra meltas and flamers.

Similarly if you're building a small list that's based around sternguard in drop pods, you don't even necessarily need to have Pedro since you can cover your troop needs for only about 300-450 points of tac squads. But even if you do have Pedro, the little tac squads free up the sternguard to go where they need to go by covering your home objective(s).

Or if you're building a terminator list, the point savings might be enough to afford a second landraider while keeping 3 or 4 troop units in your list at 1500.

For me, though, I think the ultimate fun would be the razorback spam list--just cramming as many razorbacks as possible into a completely mechanized marine list with some speeder & whirlwind support. Not only does leaving out the extra marines free up points for more razors, but there's a definite advantage in mech lists to having *everything* mounted in a vehicle, and not have to leave combat squads standing around in the woods. Especially against assaulty armies, a fully mounted army creates that situation where there's no home-base "core" for them to assault because the whole army is moving all over the board.

A ton of KPs, but it might work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I personally am looking at building a Shrike list with at least 2 and possibly 3 units of assault marines (I know everybody says they're crap, but it's mostly for fun).

Problem is that at my FLGS a lot of players play 1500 points, so it's a struggle to fit even 2 fullsized assault squads into an army like that when you're paying 500 points for your required scoring units plus the cost for Shrike.

I could go with minsize scout units, and that would be themey, but weak. So I'm exploring the idea that a better option would be 2-3 of these little razorback tac squads.

if you field two five man units as your only troop choices in a marine list a good general will make those two units priority targets. you will be left with nothing to hold objectives and lose the game.

Also most players run 10 man with rhino and combat squad the unit. in my personal lists if its an objective game I combat squad stick the sarge with fist/combiflamer and meltagun marin in rhino and the heavy weapon (usually a multi melta or lascannon) on the objectives as a mini dev squad. the rhino's run as a wolve pack usualy 3 of them and the mini devs stay home to guard the objective.

Tbh honest though 2x squads of 5 marines + rhino
are going to be just as susceptible to dying as 2x squads of 10 marines + rhino

And actually you can get 3x squads of 5 marines + rhino for cheaper than the 10 marines. Either way your opponent can't focus them too much or the insane firepower your bringing (by shaving 150 pts, 10% in a 1500 pt game) is going to destroy him.

mrdabba wrote:if you field two five man units as your only troop choices in a marine list a good general will make those two units priority targets. you will be left with nothing to hold objectives and lose the game.

Well if you're running either my example Khan list or my example Pedro list, your bikes/sternguard are also troops, so just killing the tac squads won't do it. I wouldn't recommend running fewer than 3 mini tac squads if you have no other troops.

It's the old MSU (multiple small units) approach adapted to vanilla marines. The units are more fragile and worth more KPs, but more mobile and require more of your opponent's resources to deal with.

Combat squadding already allows you to do that to some extent, but not really in a mechanized list since half of your guys have to stand around and be not mechanized. Minsized squads allow you to take more transports and really exploit your mobility.

Great thread people!

I have had many of these same thoughts. more specificially because I never get any use out of the free Heavy in the Tacs. I'd almost rather just take the bolter.

I like the idea of razorbacks but then you are really dedicating those small units. I still like the 10 man in rhino with the chance of combat squading b/c i believe it makes my list more malleable to the opponent as I try as hard aas possible to have a true al comers.

Deuce11 wrote:Great thread people!

I have had many of these same thoughts. more specificially because I never get any use out of the free Heavy in the Tacs. I'd almost rather just take the bolter.

I like the idea of razorbacks but then you are really dedicating those small units. I still like the 10 man in rhino with the chance of combat squading b/c i believe it makes my list more malleable to the opponent as I try as hard aas possible to have a true al comers.

I have had the bolter discussion before:
Always take at least the free heavy weapon.
If your inside of rapid fire and have moved you only lose one shot. Your heavy weapons guy still has a pistol.

That being said. I am kinda leaning back towards big squads with rhinos. They seem more flexible. Yes, razorbacks are a bit more of a threat in terms of vehicles. But with 10 marines jumping out of a rhino, your opponent will need to be careful.

TBH if I could get a slightly better weapon on the razorback for less than 35 pts >< I would consider it. But TL heavy bolter + (maybe storm bolter) Isn't really that much better than storm bolter + (maybe storm bolter)
Yes it pops transports from range, but I think most mech lists can already do that with dakka preds.

Still a very interesting discussion and I think both ways could be viable.

I think a mixed approach is the best but it also depends on what you are bringing.

If you have a list with several Land Raiders, taking a full ten men is preferred because you can combat squad them out, stick the heavy weapon in the Rhino with it's fire point, and the special weapon/Sergent portion in with some character in a Land Raider. It dramatically increases your scoring ability.

I am currently playing around with this Troops Section in my current 2000 point RTT list (the points level at my LGS fluctuates).

Ten-man Tactical Squad w/ MG, ML, PW in Rhino = 220

Ten-man Tactical Squad w/ FL, MM, PW in Rhino = 225

Five-man Tactical Squad w/ PW in Razorback w/ Assault Cannon = 175

How I run them is that I usually combat squad the ML squad and leave the ML in a Rhino on an objective (which is why I take the ML in that squad, range matters for a scoring unit that is going no where). The rest of the squad rides with Vulkan in a Land Raider Crusader and heads to an objective. Vulkan alone is good enough to protect the squad in most situations, and the meltagun can pop a tank so they can do a follow up charge.

The second Rhino squad is a little more forward moving so I can get the MM in range. I keep a free flamer in the squad to handle infantry in a pinch and to hopefully reduce numbers before a charge.

The Razorback has the flexibility to stay closer to home and is the medium mover. In the heavy Mech environment, the Assault Cannon usually pays for it self.

And I put power weapons on all my Tactical Squads to assist them in getting through combat. I have been saved more often then not with that little piece of insurance. I tend to be very conservative with them, and they would never leave their transport unless absolutely necessary. I look at Power Weapons with the "condom" principle. better to have one and not need it then need it and not have one.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Similarly if you're building a small list that's based around sternguard in drop pods, you don't even necessarily need to have Pedro since you can cover your troop needs for only about 300-450 points of tac squads. But even if you do have Pedro, the little tac squads free up the sternguard to go where they need to go by covering your home objective(s).

This type of army would shine as Blood Angels, with all the overcharged engines, and a character like corbulo buffing your tac marines. It would also fit really easily into 1500 points.

10 man Squads w/ Razorbacks are incredibly awesome. The razorback point for point is one of the better vehicles available. Especially being able to combat squad. Also with Marines and the size of the razorback here is a neat trick.

Take a 10 man squad w/ Missile Launcher, place all ten in front of the razorback you have to work with this they all cant be in a straight line, but checkerboard pattern is the easiest way to describe it. Just take out a rhino and set your models in front of it until you think you have a pattern that you cannt see through. Troops can obscure vehicles; If the marines are in cover and the razorback is behind the marines both have cover saves. Moving 10 guys forward with Razorback as support when 4 or more die; jump in the razorback and haul ass.

I prefer to use 10-man squads, with Flamer/MM, in a Rhino.

I would only spam Razorbacks though, not use one or two - all or nothing with them.

Yeah they make great objective holders and are cheap. 75 points for twin linked Assault cannons what or Twin lascannons.

Actually, if doing that I'd take the HBs, because they're more than decent for that cost. I consider all the other options overpriced, even though I use Wave Serpents, the last word in expensive transports.

I'm still not a fan of leaving half my tac squad standing around while the rest of the army moves. Unless I had alternative transport for them, like Mahu's land raiders, I'd rather have the smaller squad if I'm using razorbacks.

I recently started using an assault cannon razorback and I like it enough that I'm converting a second one. I think it's the one option that really is worth the points because it creates, in effect, a light tank--sort of like a baal-lite for half the cost-- that can threaten anything from hordes to land raiders. IMO, the assault cannon is the one razorback turret upgrade that's worth the points.

Probably wouldn't ever field more than two though. The HB razor is just too good a value.

I use 2 rhinos squads and 1 razorback squad in all 1500+ games. The TL assault cannon upgrade on the razor is very worthwhile as it is a threat against anything - its what I use.

Depends on how you intend on seizing the objectives in the first place.

If your putting your faith in say, Assault Terminators, I think I would reccomend the ten man squads. Why? Because should things go ill, and the Terminators get bogged down in combat (lucky break tests, bad dice etc) then the Rhino can screech in and offer supporting fire should another enemy unit be aiming to jump the engaged Terminators. 10 Bolters rapid firing can put a pretty big dent in horde units!

If your seizing units are larger then I would hedge my bets by doing either Combat Squads, or 5 men in Rhinos (Razorbacks instead, points allowing). That way you retain flexibility without necessarily sacrificing firepower (you can still gang up if needs be)

I don't know flavius. I am really leaning back towards the other direction. Yes my marines usually get out at least once every battle, and I really want that hefty punch when they do. Plus I want enough left over to re-embark my next turn.

rhino = 2 str 4 shots at 24"
Razorback = 3 str 5 TL shots at 36"

So rhinos are pretty much useless against vehicles, and against squads you might kill 1 model if you're lucky.

Razorbacks against av 10
Lets say all 3 hit normally (2 in the first roll, .5 in the 2nd rounded up)
Each shot will have a 33% chance of glancing/pen
for av 11 its like 16%

Against transports a glance is going to be pretty useless as its usually just going to prevent them from firing.
So against most av 11 transports its practically useless.

Against infantry
3 hits
lets say toughness 3
2 wounds
So depending on armor/cover saves thats 1-2 models potentially (4+ cover you would kill 1)

In the end you basically have a 12" longer range and you don't do all that much more damage

Razorback would kill 1 every time it shoots
Rhino would kill probably close to .3 (with rough math)

So the extra .7% chance of killing something for less of a punch when your models disembark just doesn't seem worth it.

3 Razorbacks vs 2 rhinos
3 dead a turn vs 1 dead a turn

basically with equal points thats about what it would look like. Remember first option loses you 4 special weapons and 5 marines.

So in retrospect its looking worse and worse.

The thing I dislike about HB Razorbacks is that, yes they are a deal, but most of the time your shots are bouncing off tanks. At that point it's better to just have a "free" heavy weapon shooting out of a fire point.

I look at a 5 man Squad in an Assault Cannon Razorback as a better deal simply because it has the possibility of hurting everything, can fire on the move, and is less points then the full man squad with a heavy weapon in a Rhino.

I also disagree that Razorbacks are an all or nothing choice. You opponent should be worried more about the other things in your list then the three AV11 tanks that are just inching towards an objective.

Marines are a midfield army, and most of the time that means the transports arn't going that far. SO even if they do get attention, your opponent still has to shoot your Marines out.

But Mahu, you would agree, if they do dedicate a couple things to your transports, they are gone. In which case your footslogging marines that come out are going to be a lot worse off than if they were 10 strong with special weapons.

I think if marines got a free special at 5 troops strong it would be very very close to even. However as is, I think rhinos win out.

Main reasoning is rhinos aren't important enough to shoot at, so they stay moving. Razorbacks on the other hand, will draw fire away from other tanks and get blown up easier. Thus making your mech list a not so mech list.

I agree with pretty much every word of Mahu's post.

No wait, I misread it.

I agree with shots bouncing off tanks is bad.

I agree that AC RBs look good on paper, but I'd hate to be reliant on Rending shots.

I also think 10-man units are a better deal given their increased survivability once they do get forced out.