What to choose, Salamanders or Crimson Fists @ 1500 PTS.

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**radiohazard**

This is what I've come up with in regards to army selection for the 2010 GT Heats. Problem is that I do not know what one to take or which one I like best:

Salamanders - 1500/1500

He'stan

5 Assault Terminators with TH/SS.
Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-Melta.

10 Tactical Marines with Flamer and Multi-Melta.
Rhino.
10 Tactical Marines with Flamer and Multi-Melta.
Rhino.

2 Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer.
2 Land Speeder Tornado with Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer.

Dakka Predator.
Dakka Predator.

Crimson Fists - 1500/1500

Pedro Kantor.

6 Assault Terminators - 3 with LC, 3 with TH/SS.
Land Raider Crusader with Extra Armour and Multi-Melta.

5 Tactical Marines with 1 Combi-Melta.
Razorback with Twin-Linked Assault Cannon.

5 Tactical Marines with 1 Combi-Melta.
Razorback with Twin-Linked Assault Cannon.

5 Sternguard with Combi-Meltas.
Razorback with Twin-Linked Assault Cannon.

5 Sternguard with Combi-Meltas.
Razorback with Twin-Linked Assault Cannon.

Any help with this would be much obliged.

**Deuce11**

I like the FIST list.

With the right amount of patience and positioning I think this list is great against most armies at 1500... Tank heavy Imps may be a problem though.

**radiohazard**

Deuce11 wrote:I like the FIST list.

With the right amount of patience and positioning I think this list is great against most armies at 1500... Tank heavy Imps may be a problem though.

That's the main weakness I thought about too, but you can't win them all. If I took anything out of this list, I lose something that is good against other armies just to put something in against one type of army.

What would you suggest?

**Fearspect**

Do you have the points to give the Salamanders a Crusader instead? I would suggest that. The Landspeeders provide you with a lot more flexibility than the Crimson Fists list does.

**Elessar**

Land Raiders have to be run in 2's, or more. One Raider is too much of a Fire Magnet for Melta to do it's job.

You can comfortably take 3 Crusaders in 1500.

**radiohazard**

Fearspect wrote:Do you have the points to give the Salamanders a Crusader instead? I would suggest that. The Landspeeders provide you with a lot more flexibility than the Crimson Fists list does.

Afraid not, I dropped down to a Redeemer because I couldn't afford the 4th Land Speeder. I do want to include the Crusader though.

Elessar wrote:Land Raiders have to be run in 2's, or more. One Raider is too much of a Fire Magnet for Melta to do it's job.

You can comfortably take 3 Crusaders in 1500.

Errrrrrm... in 1500???
Errrrrrm, yeah ok.

If I did that, I wouldn't have anything else in the army.

**Elessar**

Yep, Vulkan, 5 HT/SS, and ten Scouts.

**Deuce11**

radiohazard wrote:
Deuce11 wrote:I like the FIST list.

With the right amount of patience and positioning I think this list is great against most armies at 1500... Tank heavy Imps may be a problem though.

That's the main weakness I thought about too, but you can't win them all. If I took anything out of this list, I lose something that is good against other armies just to put something in against one type of army.

What would you suggest?

off the top of my head the stern in razorback is
about 225+?

The HF/MM landspeeders are 70 each. You could get at least 3 of them. You know the benefits of them, you run them in the other list.

**Xav**

Elessar, someone i know is doing the 3 LR spam but with Calgur. Thank god its not Ultrasmurfs though, so its ok. But it will be a realy hard list to deal with.

**radiohazard**

Deuce11 wrote:
radiohazard wrote:
Deuce11 wrote:I like the FIST list.

With the right amount of patience and positioning I think this list is great against most armies at 1500... Tank heavy Imps may be a problem though.

That's the main weakness I thought about too, but you can't win them all. If I took anything out of this list, I lose something that is good against other armies just to put something in against one type of army.

What would you suggest?

off the top of my head the stern in razorback is
about 225+?

The HF/MM landspeeders are 70 each. You could get at least 3 of them. You know the benefits of them, you run them in the other list.

Yeah I know how good they are, but the fist list needs the 2nd Sternguard squad to count as a scoring unit. With the squads being so small, dropping one would be a big mistake.

In regards to choosing which army to go for there are a few more factors that I should consider...

1 - PRICE.
This is the biggest factor. The Salamanders army is much cheaper than the Crimson Fists as the fists army requires the shoulder pads, forge world doors, 4 assault cannon sprues for the razorbacks (which are £12 ish EACH), the razorbacks themselves, the Combi-Meltas and all the base models required.
The Salamanders don't have any shoulder pads (so i'll be green stuffing the icons), forge world doors and FW Terminator Shoulder pads, Dreadnought Melta Gun and the base models.

2 - THE WIFE.
Number one has also got something to do with Number two. I know she would rather I get the cheaper of the two. At the end of the day she has the last word.

3 - EFFECTIVENESS.
Each list has it's merits and things I like. The Sallys have overwhelming amounts of Melta fire that is Twin Linked. It also looks cool on the battlefield and has that Strikeforce feel, which most Marine armies should have IMHO. The main weakness I can see is that it has only 2 scoring units (can they be split into ttwo combat squads each and still go in the same Rhino? if so, that solves my problem). The fists have my all time fave weapon in large numbers - The Assault Cannon and it has a lot of scoring units. downside to this is that this army cannot really stand-up to large amounts of tanks - Assault Cannons are good, but you have to roll like a god to really get through AV13-14 and pop a Tank off.

Thats it really, but as I cannot decide between the two, I'm going on the popular vote from you guys on Dakka Dakka.

**Elessar**

No, Combat Squads become separate units, and can't get in the Transport together.

**theo2009**

Would people stop using land speeders in salamander armies. There base is located where land speeder training is impossible.

**Elessar**

Marines are masters of all warfare. They train with Speeders somewhere else.

**radiohazard**

I'm thinking of dropping the Dread in favour of another troops choice. Which will most likely be scouts with sniper rifles. Are they any good and is it a worthy trade for a Dread?

**theo2009**

I guess this shows how long I have been in the hobby but if you read the old army book for salamanders they where quite adamant in the fluff that they rarely used speeders. Then again I am probably wasting my time telling people to use the power list of the month fluffy.

**radiohazard**

theo2009 wrote:I guess this shows how long I have been in the hobby but if you read the old army book for salamanders they where quite adamant in the fluff that they rarely used speeders. Then again I am probably wasting my time telling people to use the power list of the month fluffy.

I've been in the hobby since Rogue Trader and Space Crusade and it's true that they rarely use Land Speeders.

This is one of those times

Second - this list is for GT Heats for 2010.

**Elessar**

lols, Sallies is hardly FotM, and I've played since before that fluff existed, when Sallies were just green Nillas.

While I don't disagree that it's less fluffy to see them in every list, they still have an Assault Company. I'd happily play against them with only I3, as well, thanks.

If GW cared about that fluff, it'd have been mentioned in the new Dex, and there'd be a viable alternative to portable MMs. (No doubt you recall Attack Bikes not being very prevalent in the Chapter either)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ OP:
If taking Sniper Scouts, I think Telion is a must.

**radiohazard**

Elessar wrote:If taking Sniper Scouts, I think Telion is a must.

Is there much point in taking Telion if all the scouts have Sniper Rifles?

**Xav**

More point in taking Telion if the scouts have snipers. His bolter is 2 shot 36" rending, BS 6 also you allocate wounds to the squads you damage with him, and if he doesnt shoot you can use his BS 6 on the squads ML, or HB.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
More point in taking Telion if the scouts have snipers. His bolter is 2 shot 36" rending, BS 6 also you allocate wounds to the squads you damage with him, and if he doesnt shoot you can use his BS 6 on the squads ML, or HB.

**Xav**

More point in taking Telion if the scouts have snipers. His bolter is 2 shot 36" rending, BS 6 also you allocate wounds to the squads you damage with him, and if he doesnt shoot you can use his BS 6 on the squads ML, or HB.

**Xav**

More point in taking Telion if the scouts have snipers. His bolter is 2 shot 36" rending, BS 6 also you allocate wounds to the squads you damage with him, and if he doesnt shoot you can use his BS 6 on the squads ML, or HB.

**radiohazard**

Very true.

But here's a question...

If I drop the Dreadnought and Drop Pod (150 PTS in total), what would you add in?

I'm thinking one of these:

Scout squad with Sniper Rifles for the added scoring unit.

Anti-Infantry Predator.

Anything else I haven't thought of.

**Elessar**

6 (?) Scouts with Telion, and a ML.

ML lets you take Transports, as does the odd Rend.

Telion lets you take Nobs etc, and MCs go down easy.

Scoring is a huge boost.

Take 5 if you can get Camo, but not a 7th.

**radiohazard**

Not a 7th?

For 150 Pts I can get 5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks + Telion.

Thats not a great unit IMHO.

I don't think Telion is all that TBH.

**Xav**

Well if you do drop the dread, you need some other armour on the board to distract enemy from your LR, so maybe 2x dakka preds if you can find the extra 20 points?

Then the list would look like this:

HQ

Vulkan
190

Elites

5x Assault termies, TH/SS-200
Landraider Redeemer, multi-melta

Troops

Tactical squad, flamer, MM, Rhino
Tactical squad, flamer, MM, Rhino

Fast Attack

2x Landspeeders, MM, HF

2x Landspeeders, MM, HF

Heavy Support

Dakka Predator
Dakka predator

Your five points over, with good anti-horde capablitys the MM's to pop multiple LR per turn, and there will be multiple LR's.

**Elessar**

Sorry, I didn't have the Codex to hand, and couldn't be bothered doing it in my head...

**Canonness Rory**

Salamanders do not use land speeders, I understand this is a competitive list, but you could at least TRY to keep it fluffy. Consider attack bikes or bike squads instead.

**Corpsesarefun**

The land speeders are pretty unfluffy for salamanders, so i vote fists

cannoness rory wrote: Salamanders do not use land speeders, I understand this is a competitive list, but you could at least TRY to keep it fluffy. Consider attack bikes or bike squads instead.

if you read the codex it says they dont use bikes in the same place it says they dont use land speeders

**Xav**

Rory thats not true, they have landspeeders there just not used as much because there planet has diffycult terrian and low gravity. Which means bikes will not be used either.

The reserve companys have speeders and bikes, and using them would be keeping to the fluff as long as you dont spam them.

**radiohazard**

Canonness Rory wrote:Salamanders do not use land speeders, I understand this is a competitive list, but you could at least TRY to keep it fluffy. Consider attack bikes or bike squads instead.

Actually Salamanders do use Land Speeders.

I quote from their Index Astartes Entry...

"The conditions on Nocturne are not conductive to training for high speed attack or using the anti-grav engines of Land Speeders, so the chapter employs relatively few of these specialized fast attack units."

Index Astartes IV - Salamanders.

Also to support my Land Speeders in my army...

"Though he [He'stan] no longer commands a company of his own, He'stan can draw upon any and all of the Salamanders' resources to aid in his search."

Space Marine Codex 5th Edition Page 93, Paragraph 3.

No more fluff arguments please.

Also...

Salamanders don't strictly have support companies as there are only 7 companies in total, each slightly larger than a regular Astartes Company. They have the 1st Company (The Firedrakes) and 6 others. The 4th company in particular is considered their greatest.