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I was reading in my newly-purchased Codex that an Assault Marine can wield both his chainsword and a flamer:

"One space marine may replace his bolt pistol with one of the following..."

That's pretty clear-cut... but looking at what I've seen in fluff and just how a flamer generally looks (not to mention the fact that most tactical miniatures appear to wield one with both hands) I was wondering...

Are the Assault Marines just the Arnies, the Rambos and general Bruce Willis badasses of the Marines and thus feel inclined to only hold up a large weapon like a flamer with one hand?

Or can this apply to every marine? After all... they're *all* badasses...

Trying to apply logic or realism to the game of 40K is doomed to fail.

Just dont think about it.

Or, ya know the chainblade could be in a scabbard type deal waiting until he flames the guys, drops the flamer draws the sword and starts choppin? lol

kill dem stunties wrote:Or, ya know the chainblade could be in a scabbard type deal waiting until he flames the guys, drops the flamer draws the sword and starts choppin? lol

Guess the miniature just feels like pullin' a pose?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong (that's one thing you can always rely on here on YMDC!) But you've always been able to carry at least one two handed weapon and a single weapon. Doesn't help you in an assault of course - I miss hand flamers.

You can assume maybe, for fluff's sake, that it takes two hands to fire the flamer but it can be easily held in one hand while hacking away at something with your chainsword when need be.

augustus5 wrote:You can assume maybe, for fluff's sake, that it takes two hands to fire the flamer but it can be easily held in one hand while hacking away at something with your chainsword when need be.

QFT

In my opinion, two hands are generally used for larger weapons because they are either a) too heavy to hold in one hand, b) require extra stability to compensate for the recoil, c) require the second hand to perform an action (pump shotgun, for instance) or d) require a second hand to steady the weapon for careful aiming.

a) A flamer, while large, is clearly not so heavy that a marine could not hold it in one hand and fire.
b) I, personally, have never fired a flamethrower but I would wager there is little, if any recoil that would need compensation.
c) The flamer seems fairly self-sustaining once you've lit the pilot and attached the fuel. Granted it would need to be reloaded eventually but you probably get a few shots at least.
d) Everyone knows you don't have to AIM with a flamer, come on now!

For me, it doesn't seem like there is any reason a marine would *have* to use two hands. Quite frankly the only reason a Guardsman wouldn't be able to is potentially for problem 'a'.

Now a Bolter on the other hand, well that's a different story.

DoW

Bolters have pistol grips.

64mas wrote:Bolters have pistol grips.

I mentioned Bolters because True Grit (I don't think that still exists in 5th edition, does it?) allowed CSM to use their Bolters in Close Combat along with a CCW for the +1 bonus attack. Otherwise Bolters were considered 2-handed weapons and as such you didn't get the bonus attack. In addition, even if you had True Grit you could not get +1 attack on the charge because the Bolter was "too unwieldy to fire while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy." For CSM it's a moot point now since they all carry bolt pistols as well and so don't need True Grit anymore.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on what I was trying to allude to. But regardless, just because a weapon has a pistol grip doesn't mean you necessarily have the strength, dexterity or ability to use it one-handed. Some shotguns have a pistol grip but you'd have to be a badass to rack it one-handed. (Not to say it can't be done, but it's hard)

DoW

Well, the old RTB01 "Beakie" Space Marines held their flamers one-handed...

...Just sayin'!

I agree in general but

DogOfWar wrote:

a) A flamer, while large, is clearly not so heavy that a marine could not hold it in one hand and fire.

I have made a flame thrower and they do give a good hard push back. This because they are effectively working like a rocket. Fuel is fired out one side, where it is lit, then the flame draws in more air and pushes it out.


Wish mine worked as well (on second thoughts no i don't, god only knows what i would do with some thing like that)

i agree with tri, hence the reason flamethrowers are given a foregrip.

think of it working like a high pressure hose.


so it does have recoil of some form, just not the basic shock recoil like most guns have.



also another note here that no one has brought up: (common sense)
in combat its pretty much a brawl, the extra attack is from firing the weapon into the fight while using the other hand to weild a CC weapon.
how the feth do you use a flamer in CC without setting fire to your own men?
it wouldnt be possible to use a flamer in CC without killing off everyone (including your troops)

JD21290 wrote:also another note here that no one has brought up: (common sense)
in combat its pretty much a brawl, the extra attack is from firing the weapon into the fight while using the other hand to weild a CC weapon.
how the feth do you use a flamer in CC without setting fire to your own men?
it wouldnt be possible to use a flamer in CC without killing off everyone (including your troops)

^_^

tri, just that pic brings up thoughts of the dumbass in halo3 with a flamer cooking his entire team before getting booted out lol

JD21290 wrote:i agree with tri, hence the reason flamethrowers are given a foregrip.

think of it working like a high pressure hose.


so it does have recoil of some form, just not the basic shock recoil like most guns have.



also another note here that no one has brought up: (common sense)
in combat its pretty much a brawl, the extra attack is from firing the weapon into the fight while using the other hand to weild a CC weapon.
how the feth do you use a flamer in CC without setting fire to your own men?
it wouldnt be possible to use a flamer in CC without killing off everyone (including your troops)

Good point about the pressure hose issue, I didn't think of that. To be fair, I don't think it would be much of an issue for a Space Marine, but that's neither here nor there.

As for flamers in close combat? Remember this?

Granted they are a little more spread out than your average tabletop pile-in, but you don't have to go full blast, sweep side to side and bathe everyone in flames. Controlled bursts into an individual are perfectly possible I'd say. Not that I'd let you try it next to ME, of course...

DoW

DOW, my flash player is fethed
cant view vids lol

but i know what your talking about, and they are heavily spread out (much moer than the usual piled in assaults)
but who can control the bursts in a flamer to make them 100% controlled? like a pressuer system they have a valve, which when its turned off and on too fast or in rapid sucsession it blows, leaving the liquid inside to pour out (spontanious combustion anyone?)

also a note on pressure; for it to have enough pressure to give off a reasonable distance (like DOW) then it would need a large amount to get it moving.
not sure if you can google up some visd, but look up drainage jetting machines.
they have a system on them called the lance (flamer like, but fires water)
and to get that going around 20 foot it needs around 3,000 PSI, which has a kick to it, now with a heavy flammable liquid being fired over a longer distance it would need to be alot more pressure than that.


i apologise if my typing is fethed, need some sleep

DogOfWar wrote:

Granted they are a little more spread out than your average tabletop pile-in, but you don't have to go full blast, sweep side to side and bathe everyone in flames. Controlled bursts into an individual are perfectly possible I'd say. Not that I'd let you try it next to ME, of course...

DoW

No you want a flame thrower switched off. Reasons

1) most modern military grade flame throws fire a burning jelly. This keeps burning for several minute. And it sticks to you.
2) if some one damages your flame thrower you are likely to get covered in fuel.
3) Its very ... no impossible to carefully aim when some ones trying to throttle you.

K , i remember as something like this.

Flamer : 2 handed , assault weapon with enough prometheum to last the duration of the battle.

hand flamer : 1 handed pistol , assault weapon to be used right before charging into combat (fluff wise they only use it once)

LunaHound wrote:
K , i remember as something like this.

Flamer : 2 handed , assault weapon with enough prometheum to last the duration of the battle.

hand flamer : 1 handed pistol , assault weapon to be used right before charging into combat (fluff wise they only use it once)

sisters of battle have a pair of pistol flamers that work together to give her a single flamer template. (counts as a pair of CCW). Personally I would say she doesn't fire as far as a normal template but for simplicity's sake the let her use it.

i think ive said this many times before
but ill agree with luna (even if the bastards stopped assault marines taking 2 hand flamers) :K

Tri wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Granted they are a little more spread out than your average tabletop pile-in, but you don't have to go full blast, sweep side to side and bathe everyone in flames. Controlled bursts into an individual are perfectly possible I'd say. Not that I'd let you try it next to ME, of course...

DoW

No you want a flame thrower switched off. Reasons

1) most modern military grade flame throws fire a burning jelly. This keeps burning for several minute. And it sticks to you.
2) if some one damages your flame thrower you are likely to get covered in fuel.
3) Its very ... no impossible to carefully aim when some ones trying to throttle you.

We're still talking about 40k, right?

I'm still a little worried that you made a real flamethrower! That *has* to be illegal.

DoW

we have all done something like that, maybe it just started out as the simply can of spray design and went onto using GW's spray gun (using lighter fluid in it and a spark system)

on that note, it wouldnt take much work and could be pretty amusing
ill get a vid up in a few days if i get it working, allthough ill sue for any 3rd degree burns i suffer in the testing XD

DogOfWar wrote:

Tri wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Granted they are a little more spread out than your average tabletop pile-in, but you don't have to go full blast, sweep side to side and bathe everyone in flames. Controlled bursts into an individual are perfectly possible I'd say. Not that I'd let you try it next to ME, of course...

DoW

No you want a flame thrower switched off. Reasons

1) most modern military grade flame throws fire a burning jelly. This keeps burning for several minute. And it sticks to you.
2) if some one damages your flame thrower you are likely to get covered in fuel.
3) Its very ... no impossible to carefully aim when some ones trying to throttle you.

We're still talking about 40k, right?

I'm still a little worried that you made a real flamethrower! That *has* to be illegal.

DoW

It was going to be a spud gun (.... firing whole potatos) but it didn't work right so I kept converting it ... all that was need was to whip off the barrel and add some smaller piping. Legal? Yes so long as your not burning down houses.

want to have a go?

http://documents.nytimes.com/absinthe-and-flamethrowers-by-william-gurstelle#p=1
http://revision3.com/systm/cake/

And from a pure 40k point of its not listed as being a CCW of any sort so just like a bolter would be slung out the way so as not to be damaged.

It's marines. If we're to believe mister Mat ward saves, these guys could lift a land raider and not even blink twice.
In my opinion, nuff said.

Steelmage99 wrote:Trying to apply logic or realism to the game of 40K is doomed to fail.

Just dont think about it.

ROTFLMFAO!!! Best thing I have seen since I have been on these forums!!!!! Omg so funny.

The guy can hold it in his mouth, he still won't get the extra attack if it is not a pistol.

combo wrote:The guy can hold it in his mouth, he still won't get the extra attack if it is not a pistol.

I think the OP was asking more about the aesthetics and not the rules for gaining a bonus attack in CC.

Definitely confusing since it's in YMDC when I think the question would be better served in a different forum.

Then again, I've been wrong before.

DoW

Oh by the way, flame throwers are totally legal. They actually have a use in doing controlled burns to clear land. All the parts to make and fuel one can be easily purchased at your local farm supply center... Check out Ragnar Benson's Breath of the Dragon.

Can a space marine hold a flamer in one hand? Pah! A true Adeptus Astartes can hold THREE flamers in EACH hand and one in his mouth and fire all simultaneously, no matter the situation! Close combat? What does it matter? A space marine is able to pull a trigger and kick away its enemies! Shooting allies? Any warrior of the God Emperor is unfased by a bit of flame!

As for it not counting as a close combat weapon; a TRUE space marine doesn't need a close combat weapon. His enemies are his weapons, their bodies his shields. An Astartes has no need for weaponry, or even armour. They just speed up the job.

Pika_power wrote:Can a space marine hold a flamer in one hand? Pah! A true Adeptus Astartes can hold THREE flamers in EACH hand and one in his mouth and fire all simultaneously, no matter the situation! Close combat? What does it matter? A space marine is able to pull a trigger and kick away its enemies! Shooting allies? Any warrior of the God Emperor is unfased by a bit of flame!

As for it not counting as a close combat weapon; a TRUE space marine doesn't need a close combat weapon. His enemies are his weapons, their bodies his shields. An Astartes has no need for weaponry, or even armour. They just speed up the job.

You read *entirely* too much Graham McNeil (or possibly William King), sir!

DoW