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The problem with the other heavy choices is that they are only good at one thing.

I can take a dakka pred if i want to kill infantry, but its useless if I come up against a mech army. I can take a las pred if i want to kill tanks but its useless if i come up against horde. I can are a mixed pred but it isnt very good in either role.

Havocs suffer the same problems as preds in that they can be good at one thing or bad to two things, but can also be broken with shooting.

Your second point is also a bit of a fallicy, in that if i use my oblits to snipe transports they may not be killing infanty, but I have that choice to make. If i take a defiler i can kill some infantry or pray to the dice gods that my template doesnt scatter to much at BS 3 so that i may be able to kill a transport. You also need to explain how multiple cults isnt efficient. If i have two units hanging back sniping transports and and dropping plasma blasts on stuff and another DSing to flame infantry/melta vehicles how is that less efficient that one cult on the board or DSing and two vindicators?

As far as lash is concerned, only the plasma cannon suffers from it. Obilts still have a bunch of other weapons to use. If anything defilers and vindicators suffer more from rise of mech/weakening of lash than oblits do because their main armament are blasts.

Also multiple small blasts are better than a single large blast for killing infantry.

So unless you are doing some crazy stuff with havocs in rhinos oblits not only perform equally to the other heavy choices choices in their areas of use, but also are able to deal with any other situation that comes up.

Edit: its exaggeration

Canonness Rory wrote:My biggest beefs with oblits are as follows:
1.) They're not fluffy in some lists. In black legion, or word bearers, sure, they fit fine, in 1ksons, notsomuch.
2.) Yes, they are cheap for all the weapons you get, but think about it, if you're deep-striking your oblits to melta some rear armor, there is a plasma cannon, lascannon, TL flamer, power fist, etc. that you are paying for, but not using. A terminator with a combi-melta is 35 points, an oblit with a meltagun is 75 points, the difference? The oblit has a ton of weapons it is paying for but not using, otherwise it's just a fearless terminator. They are flexible, but you pay for weapons you wont use.

If you stick rigidly to the fluff then that is more of a limitation for you than anything else. Deathguard, for example, are supposed to be primarily foot-slogging infantry, supported by some terminators and dreads. If you stick to that you have to remove over half the codex from your available models.

The difference you get with oblits is that they have the choice of what to use, and so can be used in a variety of situations. A 35pt terminator with a combi-melta can only do one job, and only once. An obliterator can deepstrike to melta a tank (with tl-meltas) or flame some infantry, or sit back and plasma cannon some terminators or lascannon some transports, or do several of those in a game. Even a squad of terminators doesnt have the versitility of shooting that obliterators so, although they are better in combat.

Night Lords wrote:
Haha, Im sorry. Your Oblits have 1 gun a turn for 75 points each. Like someone else said, youre paying for versatility. They are easy as hell to kill, and each time one dies, you lose a huge chunk of your army.

Again, mathematically, 4 autocannons do better than lascannons all the way up until AV13. Predators with 4 lascannons (and four more autocannons) for a price cheaper than 4 oblits with 4 lascannons is bad? Its much harder to get lucky and kill Av13 than a T4 oblit when everything IKs them with ease.

Like I said, I was once under this "Oblits > All" category and argued against havocs for the longest time, but then I realized their potential.

Multimeltas are better than lascannon or autocannon for killing vehicles.

Plasma cannon are better than autocannon or heavy bolters for killing infantry (especially MEQs)

2+ save, 6 wounds and fearless is better than 3+ save, 8 wounds and Ld9.

Its not about saturation with oblits. You can get more lascannon for cheaper by taking havoc than you can with oblits, but those havocs are ONLY good at killing vehicles. If you go for a variety of weapons for your havocs then they become weaker in lots of areas and much less effective than oblits.

I also dont know where you've been geting your numbers from.

An autocannon has an equal chance to penetrate a AV11 vehicle as a lascannon, 44.4% each

It has as lower chance against a AV12 vehicles it has less, 22.2% compared to 33.3%

And against an AV13 vehicles it has no chance at all.

Considering that you will want to be destroying as many vehicles as possible, lascannon come out on top.

Hollismason wrote:Ignore that; Do this instead.

Boost Toward the Landraider w/ 7 of them and box it in. It can either tank shock you or just sit there. You have a 3+ Invulnerable at most it is going to be able to target and kill two bikers with the Flamestorm.

Xsss are bikers Z is landraider

ZZZZ
ZZZZ
XZZZZX
XXXX


Basic idea is to give him the choice of Disembarking the Assault Troops, Firing is flamer, remember that a Vehicle cannot cover itself with its own template.


At most he will kill 1 or 2 w/ a 50 percent. You get a 3+ versus the Assault Cannon and get a TOughness 6.

If he tank shocks then you have a LD 10 chance to Death or Glory with a Meltagun.

The Redeemer can carry 6 Terminators they all have lets say thunderhammer SS and LC ; On the Charge 18 attacks. YOu have 2 powerfist back. I would put a General on a Steed w/ this unit and go to town seriously. Chaos Lord on a bike w/ powerfist.

Its not an invulnerable save, its a cover save, which flamestorm cannons ignore. So hes wounding on 4s with his cannons and you dont get any sort of save at all. Terminators will also go to town on you because you cant get cover saves against combat attacks. Not a good plan at all really.