Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There seems to be this notion that not only are Obliterators the only Heavy Support choice in the Chaos Codex, but that a list crammed with them is instantly competitive. I have a problem with that, because not only is it not true, it also misleading to new Chaos players because it leads to the idea that the codex has only one powerful build.

Before we go any further, are Obliterators great? Yes. I use a cult of them. Are they important to Chaos' arsenal? Yes, they provide two weapons you can't get on any other platform (except for Chaos Dreads, and that should be self-explanitory). The problem is, the internet people see all the weapons on them and think 'Man, they have all of the weapons any other Heavy Support choice would need in one package! I must not need anything else!' Obliterators have a weapon to meet any challenge, but can't meet every challenge. If you use your Obliterators for sniping transports with their Lascannons, they can't provide close support with Multi-meltas and TL-Flamers. Can you get around this with multiple cults? Yes, but it isn't effecient.

'But DarkHound, what about Fzorgle?! Shouldn't that show it is?' I hear the tiny people in my head cry. Fzorgle is an issue for another day, but it needs to be adressed momentarily here, as it is a central issue. Fzorgle has no hitting power from its troops or HQ choices, so it needs to cover all of its bases somewhere else. Obliterators have weapons to meet any challenge, and Lash helps them meet the ones they need to. Fzorgle is a list that takes advantage of the 4th Ed way of thinking (transports are death traps), making it a gimmick. Nob Bikers are a gimmick, and the problem with gimmicks is that if learn to beat it, it can't surprise you, making it very easy to beat. This happened to Nob Bikers (Instant death them in shooting or CC). This is happening to Fzorgle, because vehicle heavy lists (anything Mech) makes Lash next to useless. Are Nob Bikers and Fzorgle still strong contenders? Yes, but any list designed with them in mind is going to beat them.

This thread isn't just about the Obliterators, but about the Chaos Heavy Support section in general. So, lets go to the math to see why it isn't effecient:

Lascannons! You use them to stop transports from getting anywhere right off the bat thanks to their supreme range.
Obliterators pack 2 Lascannons at 150 points with 1 wound before you lose a Lascannon.
Havocs pack 2 Lascannons at 145 points with 3 wounds before you lose a Lascannon.
Defiler packs 1 TL Lascannon at 170 points, with AV12 and a large profile.
Predators pack 3 Lascannons, one of which is TL at 165 points. It is protected from melta weapons by a 48" range and is protected by anything else by AV13.
Obliterators get the short end of the stick for dedicated Lascannons, but I also need to mention that Oblits can transition to Plasma Cannons easily from Lascannons, which is something the others can't do. This is good when you run out of things to hit with Lascannons, but it is also harder to run out of things to Lascannon with Obliterators.

Plasma Cannons! You kill anything infantry with these. These are one of the two weapons I mentioned earlier. The only comperable choice is the Vindicator. Infact, these two are so even (Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon can engage every target the Oblits can) that it really comes down to the target saturation of your list and personal preferance.

The other weapon is the Multi-Melta. Deepstriking Obliterators will come down exactly where you need them thanks to Chaos Icons, and be ready to unleash unparalleled anti-tank (AV13+).

I'm going to call this section anti-horde. Let's look at our contenders!
Obliterators with 2 TL-Flamers or 2 Plasma Cannons at 150 points.
Predator puts out 6 Heavy Bolter shots, a Havoc Launcher, and an Autocannon at 36" for 115 points.
The Vindicator has a Demolisher Cannon at 125 points.
The Defiler and Havocs are harder to set up, as they both have lots of options to improve their performance at various ranges. I'll throw down the set ups I'd use though:
Havocs put out 4 Flamers, 5 Bolters and a total of 9 MEQs with 2 attacks each at 155 points.
Defilers put out a Battlecannon or TL-Flamer and 4 S10 attacks at 150 points.
There are lots of options here, but one thing is certain, Obliterators aren't the best choice here.

So, what does give the Obliterators their place? They have a spot in every category with no changes. This doesn't mean they'll be able to fulfill every roll in a single game, but it means you can position them for whatever you need from them that game. While they aren't the most effecient choice for a given task, they don't waste points being something you don't need for that game. If you see your opponent is an Ork Horde, position them in the back to Plasma Cannon them. If they are an IG Armored Company, Deepstrike on your Icons and waste them with your Multi-Meltas.

Now go, refute or agree with me! Tell me what you think, or why this is non-sense. Discuss it!

Yep.

Predator is okay, but doesn't bring much that the Oblit can't do offensively.

Defilers are a strong unit, but have problems in the CSM dex:

1. It's a close combat monster in an army filled with close combat units

2. It's a 'bully' unit, made for beating on units that can't do much vs. AV12. Against elite assault units or even other Dreadnoughts, WS3, I3, and no grenades tends to get whomped

3. Its shooting isn't nearly as good as the Oblits'

sourclams wrote:Predator is okay, but doesn't bring much that the Oblit can't do offensively.

Elaborate on that, please.

Okay.

Dakka pred: Dakka pred can kill infantry, probably 4-5 models in the open with a 4+ or worse save, or 2-3 models in cover/MEQs.

Oblits can also kill 4-5 models with a single direct plasma cannon hit, and do a lot better versus Terminators. Their anti vehicle is also more consistent at 24" and far superior at 12" or less when melta comes into play.

Pred Annihilator: 3 lascannons versus 2 lascannons, but almost worthless against infantry and a sitting duck versus AV14 and Wave Serpents. Oblits at least have the option to deep strike for greater flexibility, and two options for AP1 melta.

So Predators lose out slightly offensively, although there are advantages to AV13 sitting 36" away. Considering the up close and personal nature of CSM, however, mobile fire support is, in my opinion, far more useful and valuable than a backfield gun platform.

While I think 4-5 models with a single plasma cannon is an exaduration (sp) except against horde infantry, good point.

The last point is something debatable though, especially since we don't have any truely mobile weapons platforms, save the Defiler.

The problem with the other heavy choices is that they are only good at one thing.

I can take a dakka pred if i want to kill infantry, but its useless if I come up against a mech army. I can take a las pred if i want to kill tanks but its useless if i come up against horde. I can are a mixed pred but it isnt very good in either role.

Havocs suffer the same problems as preds in that they can be good at one thing or bad to two things, but can also be broken with shooting.

Your second point is also a bit of a fallicy, in that if i use my oblits to snipe transports they may not be killing infanty, but I have that choice to make. If i take a defiler i can kill some infantry or pray to the dice gods that my template doesnt scatter to much at BS 3 so that i may be able to kill a transport. You also need to explain how multiple cults isnt efficient. If i have two units hanging back sniping transports and and dropping plasma blasts on stuff and another DSing to flame infantry/melta vehicles how is that less efficient that one cult on the board or DSing and two vindicators?

As far as lash is concerned, only the plasma cannon suffers from it. Obilts still have a bunch of other weapons to use. If anything defilers and vindicators suffer more from rise of mech/weakening of lash than oblits do because their main armament are blasts.

Also multiple small blasts are better than a single large blast for killing infantry.

So unless you are doing some crazy stuff with havocs in rhinos oblits not only perform equally to the other heavy choices choices in their areas of use, but also are able to deal with any other situation that comes up.

Edit: its exaggeration

I think that obliterators are the best and most flexable choice in the CSM codex for heavy support but they are certainly not the best choice for every army.

One example that comes to mind is using a Khorne berzerker army. Berzerkers NEED land raiders to be effective and the only way that they get those land raiders is by using up heavy support slots. I run 3 squads in land raiders in my 1850 pt. army, so I don't really have much choice. The land raider is a solid heavy support choice though, often overlooked.

Thanks Regwon. The thing is, Oblits won't beat out other dedicated units for the same points. For example, if you know you need more Lascannons to have a good all-rounder list, you shouldn't take Oblits. Laspred is better at Lascannons.

Defilers have other, non-blast weapons to kill transports, which is something most people forget. A TL-Autocannon is probably going to do a lot more to that Rhino than a Battlecannon.

To Augustus, I was thinking about Landraiders as a wrote this up, and they are a transport first and a shooty unit second so I didn't really get to it. You can however use Terminators who will be Deepstriking with a Dedicated Landraider to free up Heavy Support choices.

I highly disagree that Oblits are the be all for Chaos heavies. I agree that havocs are useless (even in a raider, they dismount and can't shoot... otherwise they are just marines with big guns!), Defilers aren't as great as they really could be, and our land raider lacks options compared to its SM counterpart. However, I do love what we have

Obliterator - its great to have its versatility. I typically lascannon transports then plasma cannon the squishies. Or lash whip in front of em and let em have it with plasma cannons or heavy flamers. The power of oblits is its versatility! Yes, I agree, the fact its a terminator and can get insta-gibbed is not that appealing, but they can be pretty amazing.

Predator - Worthless IMO. Yes, having lots of anti-troop or lots of anti-vehicles great! But it dies quickly, its sponsons are not twin linked, and it costs a lot of points compared to other stuff... I normally use mine as a rhino :/

Defiler - Yes, its our Dreadnaught essentially cuz ours sucks. It gets more attacks than a dread, and has a pretty bad ass cannon. But it has obvious weaknesses (like no grenades and low initiative)... but it still goes before power fists! And it absolutely stomps all over anything without a power fist, melta bombs, or str 6+. Which is why I like em hes also great for soaking up shots in the beginning of the game (newer players freak and like to shoot all their lascannons and railguns at em... heh)

Land raider - our lack of options is made up for the plain fact that our land raiders are CHEAP. AV 14 with 2 lascannons and a heavy bolter for 225 points? sick. And the fact we can make it ignore all shaken and stunned results? also sick. It makes it amazing to transport around Abaddon to do his dirty work. I almost always run 1-2 of these with Khorne zerkers or termis to clear the field quickly. It also helps us get into CC (which we excel at).

Those are my thoughts. Personally for my heavies I always bring a landraider and some oblits and fill in my third space depending on how I'm feeling. Normally (i'm huge into khorne) I run my CC defiler w/ heavy flamer for my third, but sometimes I'll take a second LR.

Call me stupid but i like the Vindicator out of all the heavy suport just because of the Instant death it can dish out and the large blast is also nice

A few weeks ago I would have said that youre a complete idiot and Oblits are completely necessary, as they are extremely versatile blah blah blah. I was under the mentality that the chaos codex had only the few units. However, I was getting bored with the power list when I was demolishing everyone I played, so I looked to change it up and play a truly fluffy NL list.

At first I thought I was going to be hindering myself. I started playing a few games against a skilled friend and I saw some flaws in my new "for fun" list. However, after sitting down with the codex, crossing out the non NL units (ie Oblits, Defilers, cult troops) I came across some interesting things, and a list far more competitive than I could have imagined.

To put it bluntly, my Heavy support (2k list) now contains:

Predator Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 105
Predator Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 105
Havocs x10 - x4 Autocannons, Champ, Fist, Icon, Rhino - 315

=525 points

--------

First off: Havocs. How did I not see these guys before? Getting straight to the point - the 4 autocannons (48", 2 shots, S7) do better than lascannons point for point all the way up until AV13. These guys will demolish light armoured transports. The problem with lascannons are hitting and cover/smoke. With only 1 shot, youre going to hit twice every 3 turns. If youre shooting through cover, youre only hitting once in 3 turns. Then after all that, you still need to penetrate, and then you need to get a 5 or 6 to destroy.

I would MUCH rather take 6 extra shots at only 2 strength less. Light armoured transports are completely owned by 8 autocannon shots. AV12 is going to take some sort of damage at the very least. These guys can also move a lot faster than oblits with a rhino, and with a ton of wounds dont fear something simple like a meltagun shot that will IK them. They also do better in CC.

Oh yea, and did I mention 8 shots on only 4 guys? These things are no worse than Heavy Bolters against T4, as they can miss 50% less wounds with S7. They can also make those Tyranid monsters roll a lot of saves.

------------

Predator Tanks: Two autocannon shots and 2 lascannon shots for 105 points each. Even 210 preds vs 3 225 oblits have 1 more lascannon than them, while having 4 autocannon shots ontop of it. Yes, they have vehicle restrictions, but at Av13 your opponent has to throw real good anti tank fire at them. When I have 4 rhinos, 2 dreads (more on that in a sec), and a prince on top of 2 predators, youre really going to have to pick and choose what you want to do with AT. AV13 makes them difficult to kill under any circumstances. Ive yet to be wrecked by ranged fire, only glanced, and in that case you simply pop smoke to survive the non shooting round.

Working together, these 2 units can deal a ton of damage. Havocs shoot transports, preds shoot heavy armour. Youre getting, in my opinion, far tougher units with more guns for less points. I have 525 points listed for HS, but the majority of the havocs arnt heavy at all (Just regular CSMs, which are beasts, without scoring) - so in reality HS only costs around 350 points for 12 autocannons and 4 lascannons.

----------
As I mentioned above I now bring dreadnoughts. Now a lot of people are probably thinking right here that Im an idiot. Again, 3 weeks ago I would have said the same thing. However, when you have 2 (CCW and heavy flamer) for only 210 points running side by side, its worth the problems. The fact is, they cant be ignored. They will demolish almost anything they touch. Their heavy flamer will toast infantry only to run in and smash things up with 5A on charge.

Worst case scenario with the setup is that your dreadnought(s) go crazy and do nothing to each other. All this means is you lose 6" + run for one turn. A pain? Yes. But cheap enough, deadly enough, and hard enough to kill that theyre worth it. If you get by the crazed table for the first couple of turns, it will actually help you when you fleet towards an enemy. Im not kidding you here, In one game my opponent moved only 6 inches with his Landraider to avoid being charged by the dreadnoughts (so he could assault me the next turn). I rolled a 6 on one, moved 6, ran 6, and charged 6 to get in and blow it up. It just made its points back right there. I then proceeded to shoot down the slow termies that were inside on his side of the board the next turn.

-----

So basically for ~600 points, you get 2 dreads, 2 preds, and 4 autocannon havocs. This is so cheap that I run 2 fully upgraded HQs, 3 terminators and 40 additional (on top of 10 havocs), fully equipped (meltas, marks, fists, rhinos) marines. Every unit I have will utterly destroy mechanized units. I also have so many guns (12 autocannons, 4 lascannons, 8 meltas, 3 combi-meltas, 34 bolters, 6 twin linked bolters, 2 heavy flamers, 8 bolt pistols [raptors] = 77 [117 with rapid fire]) in an already assault heavy list.

I love it. This list has peaked my interest in the hobby again. I got bored with the traditional list. I cant say which is better, as I havnt lost with either, but this one is far more fun and far more versatile.

Point is, I dont need Obliterators.

augustus5 wrote:I think that obliterators are the best and most flexable choice in the CSM codex for heavy support but they are certainly not the best choice for every army.

One example that comes to mind is using a Khorne berzerker army. Berzerkers NEED land raiders to be effective and the only way that they get those land raiders is by using up heavy support slots. I run 3 squads in land raiders in my 1850 pt. army, so I don't really have much choice. The land raider is a solid heavy support choice though, often overlooked.

Depending on how you do it, you could always take min sized termicide units to deepstrike in, and give their dedicated land raiders to the berzerkers, freeing up Heavy Support slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night Lords wrote:
To put it bluntly, my Heavy support (2k list) now contains:

Predator Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 105
Predator Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 105
Havocs x10 - x4 Autocannons, Champ, Fist, Icon, Rhino - 315

=525 points

Your math is off. Predators with Lascannon sponsons are 130 points. It's 105 points for the twin linked lascannon turret.

Night Lords wrote:A few weeks ago I would have said that youre a complete idiot and Oblits are completely necessary, as they are extremely versatile blah blah blah. I was under the mentality that the chaos codex had only the few units. However, I was getting bored with the power list when I was demolishing everyone I played, so I looked to change it up and play a truly fluffy NL list.

At first I thought I was going to be hindering myself. I started playing a few games against a skilled friend and I saw some flaws in my new "for fun" list. However, after sitting down with the codex, crossing out the non NL units (ie Oblits, Defilers, cult troops) I came across some interesting things, and a list far more competitive than I could have imagined.

To put it bluntly, my Heavy support (2k list) now contains:

Predator Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 105
Predator Tank - Lascannon Sponsons - 105
Havocs x10 - x4 Autocannons, Champ, Fist, Icon, Rhino - 315

=525 points

--------

First off: Havocs. How did I not see these guys before? Getting straight to the point - the 4 autocannons (48", 2 shots, S7) do better than lascannons point for point all the way up until AV13. These guys will demolish light armoured transports. The problem with lascannons are hitting and cover/smoke. With only 1 shot, youre going to hit twice every 3 turns. If youre shooting through cover, youre only hitting once in 3 turns. Then after all that, you still need to penetrate, and then you need to get a 5 or 6 to destroy.

I would MUCH rather take 6 extra shots at only 2 strength less. Light armoured transports are completely owned by 8 autocannon shots. AV12 is going to take some sort of damage at the very least. These guys can also move a lot faster than oblits with a rhino, and with a ton of wounds dont fear something simple like a meltagun shot that will IK them. They also do better in CC.

Oh yea, and did I mention 8 shots on only 4 guys? These things are no worse than Heavy Bolters against T4, as they can miss 50% less wounds with S7. They can also make those Tyranid monsters roll a lot of saves.

------------

Predator Tanks: Two autocannon shots and 2 lascannon shots for 105 points each. Even 210 preds vs 3 225 oblits have 1 more lascannon than them, while having 4 autocannon shots ontop of it. Yes, they have vehicle restrictions, but at Av13 your opponent has to throw real good anti tank fire at them. When I have 4 rhinos, 2 dreads (more on that in a sec), and a prince on top of 2 predators, youre really going to have to pick and choose what you want to do with AT. AV13 makes them difficult to kill under any circumstances. Ive yet to be wrecked by ranged fire, only glanced, and in that case you simply pop smoke to survive the non shooting round.

Working together, these 2 units can deal a ton of damage. Havocs shoot transports, preds shoot heavy armour. Youre getting, in my opinion, far tougher units with more guns for less points. I have 525 points listed for HS, but the majority of the havocs arnt heavy at all (Just regular CSMs, which are beasts, without scoring) - so in reality HS only costs around 350 points for 12 autocannons and 4 lascannons.

----------
As I mentioned above I now bring dreadnoughts. Now a lot of people are probably thinking right here that Im an idiot. Again, 3 weeks ago I would have said the same thing. However, when you have 2 (CCW and heavy flamer) for only 210 points running side by side, its worth the problems. The fact is, they cant be ignored. They will demolish almost anything they touch. Their heavy flamer will toast infantry only to run in and smash things up with 5A on charge.

Worst case scenario with the setup is that your dreadnought(s) go crazy and do nothing to each other. All this means is you lose 6" + run for one turn. A pain? Yes. But cheap enough, deadly enough, and hard enough to kill that theyre worth it. If you get by the crazed table for the first couple of turns, it will actually help you when you fleet towards an enemy. Im not kidding you here, In one game my opponent moved only 6 inches with his Landraider to avoid being charged by the dreadnoughts (so he could assault me the next turn). I rolled a 6 on one, moved 6, ran 6, and charged 6 to get in and blow it up. It just made its points back right there. I then proceeded to shoot down the slow termies that were inside on his side of the board the next turn.

-----

So basically for ~600 points, you get 2 dreads, 2 preds, and 4 autocannon havocs. This is so cheap that I run 2 fully upgraded HQs, 3 terminators and 40 additional (on top of 10 havocs), fully equipped (meltas, marks, fists, rhinos) marines. Every unit I have will utterly destroy mechanized units. I also have so many guns (12 autocannons, 4 lascannons, 8 meltas, 3 combi-meltas, 34 bolters, 6 twin linked bolters, 2 heavy flamers, 8 bolt pistols [raptors] = 77 [117 with rapid fire]) in an already assault heavy list.

I love it. This list has peaked my interest in the hobby again. I got bored with the traditional list. I cant say which is better, as I havnt lost with either, but this one is far more fun and far more versatile.

Point is, I dont need Obliterators.

Yeah, you don't NEED Oblits... But Predators can get blown up very easily, can be shaken out of the game, etc. Honestly I agree with finding other routes, I agree with the guy above you, vindicators are awesome too (forgot about em!)

whitedragon wrote:
Your math is off. Predators with Lascannon sponsons are 130 points. It's 105 points for the twin linked lascannon turret.

Yea youre right. I was going off of memory and that number came into my head. Its also the same as the dreadnoughts. Point still stands though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:
Yeah, you don't NEED Oblits... But Predators can get blown up very easily, can be shaken out of the game, etc. Honestly I agree with finding other routes, I agree with the guy above you, vindicators are awesome too (forgot about em!)

I wouldnt say predators can get blown up *very* easily. Yes, they can shake them, but usually only 1 of 2. Again, its about being in sync with the rest of the army. The cheap preds allow for more units running forward. If theyre taking the time to shoot AV13 preds, theyre not shooting at the 40 marines, 2 Hqs, 2 dreads running at them.

EDIT: Also Id say edit my post down, we dont need my large post quoted haha

sourclams wrote:So Predators lose out slightly offensively, although there are advantages to AV13 sitting 36" away. Considering the up close and personal nature of CSM, however, mobile fire support is, in my opinion, far more useful and valuable than a backfield gun platform.

There is alot of luck of the dice here. my last 2 games playing a IG/SM opponent (3v3), first game my oblits DS behind the leman russ and scatter onto a wall, and the pred annihilator got 2 penetrating hits on its front.
The next game, the obilts landed because i had a icon on the other side of the building to guide them, but i still needed that Laspred to take down the basilisk on the other side of the field.
The Laspred also copped a fair few battlecannon/vendetta lascannon/Lascannon team shots because it was threatening to his armour, and they bounced off and imobolized it, and i'd say that they would have had a better chance of instagibbing a oblit.

And against my ork friend with his "as many wartrukks full of boyz" philosophy, i'd rather havocs w/ Autocannons or missle launchers and dakkapreds, so no, i dont think that oblits are the be all and end of chaos HS. Then again i dont play competetively so...

My major disappointment with Chaos Players is that they overlook Havocs. The main reason Havocs are overlooked is because they are not a scoring unit and are somewhat to a degree seem to be "outshone" by the defiler and Obliterators.

However in certain army builds Especially Mechanized they shine brightly and people really need to look at this unit and re-examine why they do not take them.

Here are my points against.

1. They are not Scoring.
2. They have ultimately no special abilties other than Marks that normally come with Chaos Space Marine Squads.
3. The cost for Heavy weapons is increased.
4. Ultimately you are buying a Non Scoring Chaos Space Marine Squad.

Here are my points for.

1. Mechanized ; with the ability to take 4 Meltaguns they are similar in scope to roles played for heavy tank hunting units.

2. The Ability to take Rhinos give them added protection of Mechanized.

3. They're ability to take special weapons in groups of 4 with no more expense than a Chaos space marine squad allow them to be more flexible.

4. Other than nonscoring they are cost efficient on special weapons and to a degree autocannons.

5. There is no minimum amount to purchase other than the base of 5 in order to get special or heavy weapons.

Now we have established that they are at base a Chaos Space Marine Squad w/ the ability to take 4 specials, have a higher cost on Heavy Weapons.

The main thing that I like about them is that they have the ability to take a transport and this gives you more flexibility and mobility in a Chaos Space Marine army that is mechanized. It allows for the ability to respond quickly and set up with 4 specials in a area that you may need heavy support.


Ultimately, this unit really depends on what type of army you are playing it works best in Highly Mobile armies so as to provide rapid response to threats. Also, do not discount the ability for small fast hard hitting units.

Not only are Obliterators the best HS in the Chaos dex, they are the best among all heavies. Versatility in offensive power and deployment, resilient, fearless... the only thing they lack is swiftness. They are even more resilient when you consider a simple Rhino can prevent multiple weapons from having LOS to them.

But it is true if a inexperienced player decides he has a magical formula to win he will still lose more than he wins against good players. However the guys who say take Preds and Havocs will also lose against the good players using Oblits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should have said extreme versatility.

My biggest beefs with oblits are as follows:
1.) They're not fluffy in some lists. In black legion, or word bearers, sure, they fit fine, in 1ksons, notsomuch.
2.) Yes, they are cheap for all the weapons you get, but think about it, if you're deep-striking your oblits to melta some rear armor, there is a plasma cannon, lascannon, TL flamer, power fist, etc. that you are paying for, but not using. A terminator with a combi-melta is 35 points, an oblit with a meltagun is 75 points, the difference? The oblit has a ton of weapons it is paying for but not using, otherwise it's just a fearless terminator. They are flexible, but you pay for weapons you wont use.

Canonness Rory wrote:My biggest beefs with oblits are as follows:
1.) They're not fluffy in some lists. In black legion, or word bearers, sure, they fit fine, in 1ksons, notsomuch.
2.) Yes, they are cheap for all the weapons you get, but think about it, if you're deep-striking your oblits to melta some rear armor, there is a plasma cannon, lascannon, TL flamer, power fist, etc. that you are paying for, but not using. A terminator with a combi-melta is 35 points, an oblit with a meltagun is 75 points, the difference? The oblit has a ton of weapons it is paying for but not using, otherwise it's just a fearless terminator. They are flexible, but you pay for weapons you wont use.

If you stick rigidly to the fluff then that is more of a limitation for you than anything else. Deathguard, for example, are supposed to be primarily foot-slogging infantry, supported by some terminators and dreads. If you stick to that you have to remove over half the codex from your available models.

The difference you get with oblits is that they have the choice of what to use, and so can be used in a variety of situations. A 35pt terminator with a combi-melta can only do one job, and only once. An obliterator can deepstrike to melta a tank (with tl-meltas) or flame some infantry, or sit back and plasma cannon some terminators or lascannon some transports, or do several of those in a game. Even a squad of terminators doesnt have the versitility of shooting that obliterators so, although they are better in combat.

Damn I love this thread - intelligent discussion that gets me swinging from one side to the other.

I am still trying out all the different heavy options, but always seem to fall back on the Vindicator as a default - the large template of ID is truely frightening.

that said, if you can get your 2xautocannon + 2xlascannon Havocs to a tall building - you own the board as your opponent scurries to leave you a nice radius.

I do know you can get 4x meltas on these guys, but I prefer to leave that to my infiltrated chosen.

Oblitsare very nice and can easily fit into any chaos list like a glove. The other chaos heavies need to be worked in to be effective.

The defiler's huge profile usually scares me away from it unless I present LR's as a threat which will draw fire from the defiler.

Havocs suffer from lack of mobility big time. They need to sit there to shoot and mech lists can move around their LOS. Havocs really need to be placed in the right spot during deployment. I like that I can take 6 guys with 4 autocannons for only 150pts.

I've never liked Vindies because of only 1 weapon and scatter. Dakka Preds always intrigued me, but they don't seem to do enough damage fast enough to horde lists.

LR's are transports first in the chaos list. They can't shoot multiple targets and are inderior to loyalists LR's. Chaos LR's deliver Berzerkers or Abbadon into the enemy lines.


To sum up, Oblits are a catch all choice that fit well into every chaos list, but the other heavy choices can work to if the list is built for them.

WC_Brian wrote:

But it is true if a inexperienced player decides he has a magical formula to win he will still lose more than he wins against good players. However the guys who say take Preds and Havocs will also lose against the good players using Oblits.

Haha, Im sorry. Your Oblits have 1 gun a turn for 75 points each. Like someone else said, youre paying for versatility. They are easy as hell to kill, and each time one dies, you lose a huge chunk of your army.

Again, mathematically, 4 autocannons do better than lascannons all the way up until AV13. Predators with 4 lascannons (and four more autocannons) for a price cheaper than 4 oblits with 4 lascannons is bad? Its much harder to get lucky and kill Av13 than a T4 oblit when everything IKs them with ease.

Like I said, I was once under this "Oblits > All" category and argued against havocs for the longest time, but then I realized their potential.

And again, it depends entirely on how you play your army. Chaos as a codex are best suited to some sort of mech rush due to their cheap transports and their capability in the assault phase as well as short range shooting.

A full squad of Havocs with autocannons costs about as much as 3 Oblits. They're immobile, and they can't bunker in their rhino without losing 1/2 of their heavy weapon shots. They're good at killing AV10-12, but not as good as 3 deep striking Oblits with TL meltas or multimeltas. If you're playing a mech rush army, you'll very likely be close enough to DS the Oblits in range off of icons, so this playstyle works very well with the structure of CSM forces.

So yeah, if you're making some kind of standoffish gun line, then Havocs are good, Preds are okay, and even Land Raiders are okay. Simple fact is, though, that many armies are going to outshoot you because you don't get enough guns for the points.

Shooty Chaos from Hell is a 4th ed list. Updated 5th ed lists will probably squash it. Now I'm guessing we're going to devolve into discussions of 'No, SAFH Chaos is still good, I win all the time'. It's not, you simply don't get enough guns or Force org slots to mount enough guns for the point values.

And that's why Oblits are a good buy. Yes, they're expensive individually at 75 points, but their incredible versatility is invaluable in a codex as one-dimensional as CSM. If the majority of your heavy weapons are going to be packed into 3 Force org slots, then you need the ability to choose which heavy weapons you'll be able to fire.

I agree that chaos SAFH is weaker in 5th, especially compared to loyalist SAFH 5th. Let's face it the guns just aren't there in the elites and fast attack as theyare in the loyalist lists.

Which unit is more survivable, Oblits vs. havocs, is an apples to oranges comparison. If I have a few lascannons, I'm shooting the oblits to intant kill them. I'm not necessarily shooting those stray lascannons at the Havocs. Likewise if I have a battlecannon, I'm shooting it at havocs over Oblits. Against different armies each chaos unit will be more survivable depending on what your opponent fields.

I will say the proliferation of Marbo in Guard armies around here has given me pause in fielding 3 Oblits. His demo charge,pinpoint placement and -5 to the scatter roll makes 3 oblits a very tempting target for the 65pt guardsman. If I deepstrike the oblits, the Master of the Fleet can keep them off the board until it is to late.

It seems like the only people who have mentioned the incredible versatility of the Oblits so far are Regwon and Sourclams (and the point they are both making seems to be getting ignored... which is silly since it is the precise reason why Oblits are so good). To me, their ability to instantly have the weapon that best deals with whatever situation is in front of them is mighty powerful. That Lascannon Pred can do amazing things against something that sits far away in tanks and trys to outshoot you, but put a horde of orks in front of it and watch it do nothing of value for 5 turns except sit there and look pretty. Meanwhile the Oblits get both Lascannons for long range AT, and then Multimltas for armor that gets close (2 MMs > 3 Lascannons at close range). They also get Plasma Cannons against the horde style lists. To try and look at the Oblits in a one dimensional manner (ie I need anti tank and Oblits aren't best at that so forget it) defeats the whole design and power of the unit. They can literally plug multiple holes in an army list at the same time. You might have to take a Lascannon Pred, and then a dakka Pred to cover both bases on one instance, whereas 3 Oblits will do better against Armor than the Las pred (multimeltas when things get close) and better against Hordes than the dakka Pred (Plasma Cannons). They'll also improve your ability against heavy infantry (Plasma Cannons). They simply do everything.

Obviously, they aren't the only HS slot for Chaos and the specific army build any playstyle is important to picking the right HS choices. Oblits also have their own disadvantages (slow as balls and T4 being the big ones) but they're the most popular and generally the most potent because they have the ability to exert massive influence over any situation with the diversity of their weapon choices.

Night Lords wrote:
Haha, Im sorry. Your Oblits have 1 gun a turn for 75 points each. Like someone else said, youre paying for versatility. They are easy as hell to kill, and each time one dies, you lose a huge chunk of your army.

Again, mathematically, 4 autocannons do better than lascannons all the way up until AV13. Predators with 4 lascannons (and four more autocannons) for a price cheaper than 4 oblits with 4 lascannons is bad? Its much harder to get lucky and kill Av13 than a T4 oblit when everything IKs them with ease.

Like I said, I was once under this "Oblits > All" category and argued against havocs for the longest time, but then I realized their potential.

Multimeltas are better than lascannon or autocannon for killing vehicles.

Plasma cannon are better than autocannon or heavy bolters for killing infantry (especially MEQs)

2+ save, 6 wounds and fearless is better than 3+ save, 8 wounds and Ld9.

Its not about saturation with oblits. You can get more lascannon for cheaper by taking havoc than you can with oblits, but those havocs are ONLY good at killing vehicles. If you go for a variety of weapons for your havocs then they become weaker in lots of areas and much less effective than oblits.

I also dont know where you've been geting your numbers from.

An autocannon has an equal chance to penetrate a AV11 vehicle as a lascannon, 44.4% each

It has as lower chance against a AV12 vehicles it has less, 22.2% compared to 33.3%

And against an AV13 vehicles it has no chance at all.

Considering that you will want to be destroying as many vehicles as possible, lascannon come out on top.

Hollismason wrote:Here are my points for.
1. Mechanized ; with the ability to take 4 Meltaguns they are similar in scope to roles played for heavy tank hunting units.
2. The Ability to take Rhinos give them added protection of Mechanized.
3. They're ability to take special weapons in groups of 4 with no more expense than a Chaos space marine squad allow them to be more flexible.
4. Other than nonscoring they are cost efficient on special weapons and to a degree autocannons.
5. There is no minimum amount to purchase other than the base of 5 in order to get special or heavy weapons.

Now we have established that they are at base a Chaos Space Marine Squad w/ the ability to take 4 specials, have a higher cost on Heavy Weapons.

The main thing that I like about them is that they have the ability to take a transport and this gives you more flexibility and mobility in a Chaos Space Marine army that is mechanized. It allows for the ability to respond quickly and set up with 4 specials in a area that you may need heavy support.

Ultimately, this unit really depends on what type of army you are playing it works best in Highly Mobile armies so as to provide rapid response to threats. Also, do not discount the ability for small fast hard hitting units.

Chosen are significantly better at the "4 specials in a rhino" game than Havoks; they pick up Outflank for only 15 pts more. Plus they don't use up a Heavy slot, leaving you room for more Oblits.

Look they are not better than chosen, they are a chaos space marine squad ,but in some armies especially Daemon Bomb armies they are a good choice as they are able to Rhino rush with 4 Meltaguns or Plasmas.

That's it I am not argueing they are better than Obliterators, you have to think very carefully on what purpose they are going to serve.

Havocs are not a replacement for oblits. Havocs are overpriced and that is why they are so rare in competitive lists.

Your havoc is stuck standing still if he wants to shoot. That is a huge drawback, and nullifies any advantage that may be perceived over obliterators. Havocs are very easy to work around if a player knows what he is doing.

I run a multitude of different builds, and oblits are simply the best heavy choice chaos has. They are good at every role a heavy might be needed for. Any other heavy choice is limited to a single purpose, whereas oblits are a swiss army knife.

Claiming they are easy to kill is funny to me. If you actually focus enough firepower on my oblits to kill them, then you are in a world of hurt as my unmolested troops hit your lines.

Eh, oblits are easy to kill, especially if your opponent is packing the right weapons.

Just a few bright lances, lascannons, melta weapons, etc. can send your 225 point squad packing.