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Canonness Rory wrote:Well I guess im TFGirl then, because i've been rules-lawyering with my dreadnoughts this entire time.

The order of operations for firefrenzy is so specific... well it takes rules lawyering to claim that they shoot your own stuff in preference over things that are in their LoS at the beginning of the shooting phase... however, we're going pretty off topic, and there have already been multiple threads on how the dread's fire frenzy is different from the normal order of operations for firing a walker's weapons.

I feel that dreadnoughts could be a great way to get important weapons on the table (multimeltas and plasma cannons) but unfortunately public opinion to how they should be played, and what the rules say are two different things, so I hesitate to use them as a replacement for obliterators.

As far as the havoc launcher on a vindicator goes... well a vindicator should either be moving 12", or firing it's main gun. If you add a havoc launcher... well no smart opponent is actually going to choose the havoc over the demolisher cannon, so it doesn't really keep it doing its job longer.

However, I think that a dirge caster on a vindicator is a brilliant idea.

Canonness Rory:

Thank you for pointing that out.

I don't think Chaos Dreadnoughts are unreliable, as, after all, you know what they're going to do on any given turn. What I do think they are is generalist models, so that if you go for two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons then you're wasting their shooting power, and if you go for two ranged weapons, then you're wasting their close combat power. I think a Plasma Cannon and a Heavy Flamer is almost ideal, particularly as a Plasma Cannon carrier because you get the doubled blast and template with a model you should be closing with anyways.

Canonness Rory wrote:Ima clear this up right now.
A 1 means your dread fires it's plasma cannon at the closest unit TWICE. It is your job to ensure that this is the enemy, not a friendly unit. NOT a hard job.

willydstyle wrote:If you're playing the rules correctly, then the dread has a good chance of firing at the baddies.

If you're playing how most players expect you to, then the dread will fire at your own stuff.

Canonness Rory wrote:People expect me to break the rules for their benefit?

willydstyle wrote:The short of it is... yes.

You are all assuming that the dread LOS and fire frenzy rule is a case closed matter. It is not, it is a grey area of the rules that can clearly be argued either way. Stating that you will use one interpretation to the exclusion of all others when the matter is not clear does in fact make you TFG. Be prepared to face people that interpret it differently, or a TO or judge that rules against you.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/250024.page

I really dont think Dreadnoughts should be brought up in this topic to replace oblits for shooting. No matter which way you feel the rule should be played (I personally think its the nearest unit, period), 40k is a game between different people, and you cant assume that your way = the right way. If youre basing you strategies around an interpretation that only the minority follow, youre going to be up the creek when you dont get your way.

That is true. I'm not sure of any major tournament that has ruled the Chaos Dread does not have to pivot to see what is the closest target. Don't get me wrong, I would love to play it that way, but I don't think the wording bears that out.

That's not how I play it, I have my dread shoot at the nearest visible unit, which is the most leniant ruling, by no means does it make me TFG, im just pointing out that if you have a squad of marines 18" from your dread, and all your units are on the other side of the board, you do not have to fire at your own units, you have to fire at the marines, twice. In a tourney I might point out the 45' thing, but I dont play in most tournies because it tends to bring out the worst in people and I dont have the competitive spirit that it takes to do well in tournies. (oh you forgot to fire that squad? Yeah go ahead, I dont care.)

As much as I'd love to talk Dreads (the codex is more specific than the rulebook in order of operations so it takes precedence), let's talk about things relevant to the Heavy Support section. Something I was thinking about was prime targets for Laspreds in a Horde list. TMCs, Nob squads, Battlewagons, any non-LRBTs an IG player would have lying around. In a true Horde list, with literally no large targets, then the Predator gets devolved to tank shocking. Only the IG can field a functional list without any tanks or otherwise large units (Nids NEED their MCs, and I couldn't see Orks without Nobs). A question is, is it worth the 5 points for a Dirge Caster just in case?

Its five points. I mean I don't see why you would not. Eventually we need to have a thread on Fast Attack; now that is tough decision period.

Hollismason wrote:Its five points. I mean I don't see why you would not. Eventually we need to have a thread on Fast Attack; now that is tough decision period.

Thats easy. Your options are:

Raptors.


That's it. They should be equipped with x2 flamer or x2 melta, MoK or MoN, Champ, Fist. How many you take is up to you.

If you want to run a skimmed down Daemon Bomb army, you can't go wrong with T6, 3+ cover save, 24" moving Icon Bearers. Expensive, yeah, but with staying power and combat prowess (firing TL bolters while assaulting into combat with uber grit? hell yeah).

I feel the need to comment on this, as I am somewhat an expert on heavy support.

My story begins way back in the days on 2nd edition, when chaos dreadnoughts were awesome engines of destruction, and vehicles would blow up if you looked at them wrong, and the landraider was OoP. Chaos did not have access to vindicaters, and havocs and obliteraters hadn't been created yet. The only (heavy) support options were predators, landraiders(if you had one), and dreadnoughts. The closest thing to havocs were 1000 sons which could take 3 heavy weapons or veterans which could take 2 (at BS 5!). Chaos players would (usually)only take the veterans (which could infiltrate) and the dreanoughts(and yes, they went crazy back then too, but it was well worth it for they destructive power).

Lets move to 3rd edition. In the heavy support section we now have Noise Marines (moved from the 2nd ed equivalent of troops), dread, pred and raider remain the same, and the introduction of 2 brand new units; Chaos Havocs and Chaos Obliterators hooray! But the dreadnoughts weapons got seriously nerfed and his crazies got crazier. Chaos Havos were equivalent/answer to loyalist devastator squads, but we could only get 3 of the following weapons: lascannon, autocannon, missile launcher, and heavy bolter. Sorry, no special weapons:( Obilteraters were a completely new unit, with no precedent. WS/BS/S/T 4, W/I 1, A 2, Ld 9, Sv2+ no invul. unit size 3-6 @ 60pts per model. Weapons: Assault cannon, Heavy bolter, Lascannon, Multi-melta, Twin-linked STORMbolter, Flamer, Twin-linker Meltagun, Power Weapon and Power Fist. With the exception on the Twin-linked STORM bolter and the close combat weapons, no two models could use the same weapon. Unit size good, weapon rule bad (and no plasma cannon or guns). Also, they could not move and shoot heavy weapons back then or even charge (and the models were actually worse than the ones we have now, if you can believe that). All in all, not the best time for chaos' heavy support section, but at least we had good daemons.

If 3rd edition was sub-par, then 4th edition was like a gift for the chaos gods themselves. Many chaos players believe this to be the pinnacle of chaos' power(army selection and customization) and background material. Our Heavy Support section loses noise marines (a good thing for everybody) but we gain DEFILER! What is this new beast of a machine?!? it's freakin HUGE! but it's got a battle cannon that can fire indirectly, so who cares where it came from or what it looks like. Havoc squads now get a 4th heavy weapon and the option to take special weapons. Our Oblits get move up to Elites, and become a 0-1 choice, But their stats get a masive boost, their gun selection gets a little better, and most importantly; they can now move AND fire their weapons. Unfortunately, they can still all have to use different ranged weapons in the shooting phase, but at least they can charge afterwards to mop up any straglers. The landraider gets a boost from the "infernal machine" rule akin to the loyalists "machine spirit". The dreadnought and predator remain pretty close to how they were in 3rd edition, but rules changes to how vehicles work make predators a more viable option. A pretty good time for Chaos players as the legions had specific rules, and even better for Iron warrior players as they got extra heavy support!

Somehow the 5th ed Chaos Codex came out before the rules it was written for (5th ed 40K) did. I personally never played the 5th ed codex using the 4th rules, so I don't know how that effected us. Heavy support in 5th changed drastically. The addition of the Vindicator siege tank was almost as big as the pie plate it dropped all over the board. The defiler got, well. . . tweaked. It lost the ability to fire indirectly, but its close combat ability did get a boost. Also new vehicle rules made it a little bit more survivable to enemy fire. Havocs and predators remained pretty much the same from 4th as did dreadnoughts (but they moved into the Elites FOC slot). Landraiders lost “infernal machine,” which is a pretty serious ding in their combat power, but new vehicles rules made them even harder to kill. Obliterators. . . Obliterators finally get their day in the sun (or warp, or whatever). They get moved back into heavy support and lose the 0-1 restriction from 4th. They gain the Multi-Melta and the PlasmaCannon and lose the “only one weapon per squad” limitation. Now we’re blasting away with 3 of whatever nastiness we need! Plus melta weapons themselves got a boost from new vehicle rules, and with new blast weapon rules, Oblits can put a hurt on vehicles and heavy armored infantry.

So why take Obliterators over the other heavy support options. First, let’s clear this up; all of Chaos’ heavy support options are good. Havocs are just as good as devastators. I have 5 squads of Havocs with heavy weapons and another 3 with special weapons. Whatever you want them to kill, they’ll kill it (they can even rock it in Close Combat)! Only downside, they can’t kill anything else. Heavy bolters aren’t gonna take down vehicles, autocannons aren’t gonna kill heavy armored infantry, lascannons aren’t going to kill mass infantry. Defilers are the new dreadnoughts. They have 5 weapons. FIVE! And they don’t go nuts. Need to blast some stuff: got it. Need to CC some stuff: got it! Landraiders: when you have to send DEATH, and it positively, absolutely has to be there overnight, don’t send USPS, don’t send FedEX, don’t send UPS, send LANDRAIDER. It’ll get your masses of screaming death anywhere you want them, any time. Predator: AV 13 tank with 3 weapons, either anti tank, or anti hoarde, or mix n match. Plus, it’s cheap in points.

This is the way I see it:
Havocs’ pros; really good at one thing. Cons; no versatility, can’t move and shoot.
Vindicators’ pros: AV 13 tank, pie plate awesome; kills mass infantry, heavy armored infantry, and vehicles. Cons: short range, one trick pony (only 1 gun).
Defilers’ pros: tons of weapons, great in CC, doesn’t go crazy, fleet. Cons AV 12
Landraiders’ pros: AV 14, assault vehicle, all weapons twin linked. Cons: expensive, not as good as loyalists (no machine spirit)
Predators’ pros: AV 13 tank, either anti-tank or anti hoarde, cheap. Cons: not enough firepower
Obliterators’ pros: ANTI-EVERYTHING, WHENEVER YOU NEED IT, can move and shoot. Cons: extremely vulnerable, expensive (points and $$).

That was hugely insightful, as believe it or not, I only joined about a month before 5th started, and didn't even buy the 4th edition rule book. It also summed up the Heavy Support section well. I think part of the problem is the bad taste in people's mouths after losing options in 4th that they are willing to dig themselves into a hole about this codex.

Nurglitch wrote:I'd like to disagree on a few points:

Obliterators are as specialized as any other unit in the Codex: they're for close support and that's about it. Dreadnoughts(!) do Plasma Cannons better, and every other support unit does their thing better. But if you want a unit dropping in to support Terminators, they're your goto unit.

Chaos Space Marines are more flexible than Tactical Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines can have two special weapons, adjust their strengths via Icons, synergize with teleport units using Icons, take a better transport (Rhino vs Razorback where the Rhino has options to take Daemonic Possession, Havoc Launcher, repair Immobilized results, carry ten Marines, have two shoot out the top fire points, etc), fight in close combat as well (or better thanks to Icons) than Assault Marines, and have higher Leadership. They buy these advantages at the cost of being brittle, since they might keep running if they do Fall Back, but then a smart opponent keeps a fast unit or two within 6" of a unit of Tactical Space Marines that Falls Back as well.

Something to remember is that a unit of Havocs can be just as flexible as a unit of Obliterators, and perhaps more because they are basically Chaos Space Marines. Unlike Obliterators, they can have Icons. They can have a transport (with Havoc Launcher or Combi-Weapon), Missile Launchers, Autocannons, and an Aspiring Champion for that Power Weapon (Power Fists are nice until that's all you have, then I2 units bone you first) and Combi-Weapon. They'll fight more effectively at close combat, and absorb anti-tank fire more efficiently.

A unit of ten Havocs with two Lascannons, two Melta Guns, and a Rhino, will be effective both against Land Raiders and Battlewagons, while remaining effective against their contents, more mobile, and better protected. Those extra bodies aren't just extra wounds, they're extra Chaos Space Marines.

Dreadnoughts do Plasma Cannons better? I think not. You get higher volume of fire at the same accuracy rating with Oblits, as well as more deployment options and more versitile firepower. You're also not going to shoot your own units in the back with Oblits. Sure you know what the dread is going to do, but it doesn't mean you can stop it from happening when its bad. You can minimize the negative effect, but you're basically always going to get at least a small setback from the thing when it loses its mind. Perhaps the Oblits are slightly easier to kill, but they're going to be a much more consistant source of plasmacannon fire, as well as a higher volume of it relative to the Dreadnought. They're also going to be able to switch roles as the situation dictates, which the Dreadnought can't do very well.

I largely agree with you on the basic CSMs, I think my statement before was too closed off to really get the point I was trying to make across. They are more flexible than a tactical squad, but not to a large degree. They get some cool options and dual assault weapons, but in order to make the unit consistantly effective against a specific type of target you will need to be redundant in your weapon options, which then diminishes their flexibility in practice. The options are nice, but not having all of them available as needed like say an Obliterator, minimizes the flexibility of the unit when it is put on the table. Note that I'm not comparing CSMs to Oblits here, merely using the Oblit as an example of flexibility.

That unit of Havocs won't do anything special when it ends up with a pile of Boyz in front of it except kill 3 with their special weapons, and then shoot some bolters (or if they're lucky enough to make range, charge... which is very ideal to avoid the mountain of str4 attacks the Orks get when they charge). After that the surviving Orks will charge and kill them. Oblits will also die when they get charged, but they'll cause a substantially greater amount of damage with their flamers or Plasma Cannons. They're also going to be quite a bit more effective at killing the Orks than those Havocs will as the orks try to close the gap. The tradeoff for this is only a slight decrease in effective shooting at tanks, which is also arguable because that unit of Havocs doesn't have the same 2d6 range as the Oblits Mulitmeltas and if they try to move and close distance to use their meltaguns, they can't shoot their lascannons. Similarly, if they stay still to shoot the lascannons then the majority of the time those meltas aren't going to be in range. Having the option for a transport is very helpful though, and big plus for a unit like Havocs.

Night Lords wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Its five points. I mean I don't see why you would not. Eventually we need to have a thread on Fast Attack; now that is tough decision period.

Thats easy. Your options are:

Raptors.

That's it. They should be equipped with x2 flamer or x2 melta, MoK or MoN, Champ, Fist. How many you take is up to you.

Bikers with an Icon of Nurgle and 2 Meltas/Flamers/Plasmas is a bunch of T6 units that are extremely fact and can drop daemons pretty much wherever the hell you want them.
(give them a power fist for a 2nd turn charge on a vehicle)

It's expensive but it's extremely difficult to kill and can kill whatever they want.

Bikers with the Icon of Tzeentch still have T4(5), and don't succumb to S7+ AP3- weapons as easily.

Correct, either one works well, just dont forget they cover save they get when turbo-boosting.

Anytime you are going to get hit by those, you should have the 3+ cover save anyway. Bikes are assault units, and should be in combat when they aren't turbo-boosting. I've just integrated Slaaneshi Bikers into my list, and I think the army looks better now.

That they do. But Space Marine players have occasion to use nasty things like Flamestorm Cannons and that cheap imitation Wind of Chaos their Librarians have that I can't recall. Some back-stabbing traitorous bastiches will even use real Wind of Chaos on you!

The Avenger is STR5 and the Redeemer is STR6 so that toughness six still gives them the benefit.

But no save. I'd rather not put myself in that position in the first place. Given that Icon of Tzeentch is only going to help if you are doing it wrong, I'd say it is a bad buy. Then again, it is helpful if you are making strikes at things they wouldn't expect you to.

Ignore that; Do this instead.

Boost Toward the Landraider w/ 7 of them and box it in. It can either tank shock you or just sit there. You have a 3+ Invulnerable at most it is going to be able to target and kill two bikers with the Flamestorm.

Xsss are bikers Z is landraider

ZZZZ
ZZZZ
XZZZZX
XXXX


Basic idea is to give him the choice of Disembarking the Assault Troops, Firing is flamer, remember that a Vehicle cannot cover itself with its own template.


At most he will kill 1 or 2 w/ a 50 percent. You get a 3+ versus the Assault Cannon and get a TOughness 6.

If he tank shocks then you have a LD 10 chance to Death or Glory with a Meltagun.

The Redeemer can carry 6 Terminators they all have lets say thunderhammer SS and LC ; On the Charge 18 attacks. YOu have 2 powerfist back. I would put a General on a Steed w/ this unit and go to town seriously. Chaos Lord on a bike w/ powerfist.

Hollismason wrote:Ignore that; Do this instead.

Boost Toward the Landraider w/ 7 of them and box it in. It can either tank shock you or just sit there. You have a 3+ Invulnerable at most it is going to be able to target and kill two bikers with the Flamestorm.

Xsss are bikers Z is landraider

ZZZZ
ZZZZ
XZZZZX
XXXX


Basic idea is to give him the choice of Disembarking the Assault Troops, Firing is flamer, remember that a Vehicle cannot cover itself with its own template.


At most he will kill 1 or 2 w/ a 50 percent. You get a 3+ versus the Assault Cannon and get a TOughness 6.

If he tank shocks then you have a LD 10 chance to Death or Glory with a Meltagun.

The Redeemer can carry 6 Terminators they all have lets say thunderhammer SS and LC ; On the Charge 18 attacks. YOu have 2 powerfist back. I would put a General on a Steed w/ this unit and go to town seriously. Chaos Lord on a bike w/ powerfist.

Its not an invulnerable save, its a cover save, which flamestorm cannons ignore. So hes wounding on 4s with his cannons and you dont get any sort of save at all. Terminators will also go to town on you because you cant get cover saves against combat attacks. Not a good plan at all really.

Bikers are most certainly a bully unit with the mobility to get to its victims. Did we cover all the Heavy Support already? Want me to make a sister thread about the Fast Attack so we can continue this on topic?

BTW - Awesome walk down memory lane with that hvy weapon section post!!!!

The only notable ommissions were Irong warriors with their extra hvy slots and oblits were elite. This basically ruled the game for a little while. Also nurgle AV 14 preds were the bomb for a long time. The loss of AV 14 was a huge downgrade.

I personally think oblits are great. I alos like possessed vindicators. They are spectacular but one weapon destroyed and they are kind useless. Finally possessed landraider are really strong delivery devices. I really enjoy running abbadon, a unit of berserkers and a lash sorcerer in one. You drive forward un load the troops pull a squad into range a crush it in hth. Usually results in completely shocked looks on your opponents face

One big gripe I have about the chaos codex is that the squad size from a fluff perspective is supposed to be a warband. Index astartes was largely rejected but many of horus legions. So squads should be about 20 guys... So why is their no transport for 20 guys? It would be such a blast to have a big fast open topped transport to launch chaos marines into hth!!!

I man's gotta have a dream