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I personally stay away from Oblits just because of the stigma that comes with them. I currently use a Pred with autocannon and 2x lascannons and two Vindis at 1500 and they have worked pretty well. Don't underestimate the Pred as vehicle. It can use range and limited mobility to pop transports or demolish infantry. The Vindis have done reasonably well for me too.

I like this thread. It's good to see people exploring the depth of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. I feel sorry for the people that don't see its depth, as it's such a narrow view and takes so much of the fun out of playing 40k.

The real problem, as I see it, is people approaching Heavy Support choices without regard to the conditions that make one choice preferable over another. Instead of asking "Which is the best Heavy Support?" people should be asking themselves "What do I want to do? What combination of tools are best suited to doing that?"

It's a bit of an exaggeration, as some people have wisely noted that whatever else you take in an army helps to define what your Heavy Support should be (e.g.: Land Raiders if you're taking Berzerkers as your work-horse Troops). But I think the whole "pre-judging units in a vacuum" thing is really a dead-end. Better to fully explore what the Codex has to offer according to some set of principles and make the judgment from experience.

When I started my Chaos Space Marine army, the idea behind it was an army that was cross-compatible with the Blood Angels Codex, so I decided to take units that I had read were sub-optimal just so I could use them as units in either army. So my Devastator units were Havoc units, one armed with Heavy Bolters and another armed with Lascannons, for example.

Rather than leaning on a gimmick or crutch, I had to learn to work with what I had, and it turned out I hadn't chosen too badly, and I played around with the list a bit. Later my Chaos Space Marine army split into a proper Blood Angels Successor army, and its post-heresy version, similar units, but each moreso drawn from their respective army lists (Command Squad in Blood Angels, Chosen in Chaos Space Marines, etc).

I notice Night Lords had a similar experience: make a decision to take a list considered sub-optimal, and discover that it is actually pretty optimal.

I like to think that this is because of the approach I took to analyzing lists and designing armies (thank Khorne for opponents willing to play proxies). I'd noticed several basic principles that formed a decision matrix for deciding what units you needed in an optimal army. These principles include:

Redundancy: We all know this one. If one unit is meh, and two units is a threat, then three or more is a serious challenge. This doesn't just go for units, this goes for unit capabilities though. Does a unit have enough bodies to weather some damage? Does the army have enough units with certain capabilities, such as moving fast, or being Troops?

Synergy: We all know this one too. Most people are familiar with the synergy between units with the Lash of Submission, and units with blast or template weapons, for example. But synergy exists elsewhere: between Deep Strike units like Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons, and Icons, between Sorcerers with the Lash of Submission and Possessed, between Lords of Khorne with Daemon Weapons and Possessed, between Possessed and Daemons, between Land Raiders and certain configurations of Dreadnought, and so on.

Flexibility: Also called "duality" by certain cliques, this is the ability of a unit to do lots of things. This is the reason that many people like Obliterators: they're offensively flexible, and they don't immediately seem to sacrifice much for it beyond points, vulnerability, and mobility. Units of Chosen and Havocs can also be flexible. A unit of Havocs can have two Autocannons and two Meltas, and ride in a Rhino mounting a Havoc Launcher: allowing them to crack transports from nearby, far away, benefit from the transport's protection and mobility (and firepoints), and so on.

These three properties are not just things that armies should have, they are things that units should have, and in relation to armies. If you don't have redundancy within a unit, for example, you should have redundancy in other units. Synergy is also good: and although Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't have high profile synergistic units like Codex: Space Marines, except for the Lash of Submission, there's lots of subtle synergy, like that between Thousand Suns and assault units like Berzerkers, Terminators, and Dreadnoughts, the anvil to their hammers.

Because a player has limits on what they can take, limits like points and Force Organization Chart slots, they have to play a bit of a balancing game, which is easier to play if you have some idea of what your strategy is.

Flexibility is at the top of the list of these properties when discussing Obliterators, because if your strategy is to Deep Strike hordes of units, then these are your go to Heavy Support since they can Deep Strike on Icons, and so they maximize flexibility, synergy, and redundancy to a degree.

But if your strategy is to drive an armoured wedge through your opponent, then Obliterators fall behind things like Land Raiders for assault carriers, Predators and Demolishers for close support firepower, and so on.

Let's not forget Assault Havocs! 4x Flamers (+ a combi) slaughter hordes or 4X Melta (+ a combi) give us our own Fire Dragons to hunt MCs with ease or tanks.

I use them in that role with great success. The ability to get those 2 more Melta guns despite not having the ability to score makes them excellent shock troops.

I like this even though it is a little pricey.

10 Havocs
4 Meltaguns
MoK
Rhino

Variations

5 Havocs
4 Melta
GoC
Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher

175

10 man w/
2 Autocannons
2 Flamers
Rhino w/ Havoc
GoC

260 points.


The point is that most armies can deal with Obliterators very well and they are 3 models; 2 Meltaguns shots takes the squad out completely. The same with a Defiler. Despite them having 2 wounds which is pointless because ultimately anything that ignores AP2 usually Instakills toughness 4.

Something that people should consider are Havocs with Plasma Guns.

There are several reasons for this, the first being that Plasma Guns have been scaled back to their 3rd edition lethality, meaning a single Plasma Gun at 12" is about as reliable as a Bloodfeeder now, and slightly less dangerous (saving on 2s and 3s rather than 5s).

The second is that a Plasma Gun is like a rapid-fire Autocannon, meaning that a unit with four of them is going to be able to get in close and chew up transports with similar efficiency. They won't crack vehicles like Melta Guns, but they'll give you a much greater threat-zone, and their anti-infantry utility has greater synergy with the unit's rapid fire Bolters.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Let's not forget Assault Havocs! 4x Flamers (+ a combi) slaughter hordes or 4X Melta (+ a combi) give us our own Fire Dragons to hunt MCs with ease or tanks.

Plenty have pointed out that Chosen are better than Havocs with x4 special weapons, and also free up a Heavy Support slot for other things.

Except that Chosen aren't better than Havocs with four special weapons, precisely because they have different capabilities, points values, and occupy different Force Organization Chart slots.

After all, one could point out that Havocs free up an Elites slot, that they have more access to Heavy Weapons, and that giving Chosen four special weapons nixes their ability to load up on special close combat weapons.

Me, I like to take both, because fielding all those units full of special weapons maximizes redundancy amongst themselves, synergy with Lesser Daemons and Terminators via Icons, and flexibility.

Absolutely agree with you Nurglich on the Plasma-guns.

On the chosen not so much; they get a 5th special and have infiltrate.

My point of Chosen vs. Havocs is why not take both.

3 Squads of Chosen w/ 5 Meltaguns 5 man w/ Rhino Havocs 190 a piece

3 Squads of 5 Havocs w/ 4 Meltaguns and Rhino w/ Havoc

165

2 x10 man Chaos Squad w/ 2 meltas ; Rhino Havoc 220

So a total of 31 Meltaguns

1505.

You have 8 Rhinos w/ Havocs and 31 Meltaguns. Naturally its kind of silly but its not expensive.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Havocs are not a replacement for oblits. Havocs are overpriced and that is why they are so rare in competitive lists.

Your havoc is stuck standing still if he wants to shoot. That is a huge drawback, and nullifies any advantage that may be perceived over obliterators. Havocs are very easy to work around if a player knows what he is doing.

People always seem to forget havocs can take 4 special weapons for the standard 15 points for plasma, 10 for melta, 5 for flama. They are not stuck standing and shooting, unlike oblits which move 1d6 inches and fire, havocs can take a rhino, and get 4 turn 2 melta shots off, compared to oblits which may appear turn 3 or 4 for three incredibly expensive TL melta shots.

Yeah I think people forget that alot ; that ability to take 4 special weapons with no minimum squad size is really what stands out for me personally.

Also, I dont believe Daemons can Deepstrike off of Obliterators or Defilers.

edit:

Like the list I posted Drop the Chosen and just keep the Havocs that still 6 Tanks; mix in Termicide squads of Combimeltas or one big terminator squad and some daemons and you have incredibly great Daemon Bomb army.

Four and one sixth if you count the Combi-Weapon that an Aspiring Champion can take. Four and two sixths if you could the Combi-Melta you can mount on their Rhino.

I like Havoc Launchers for the Rhino. Something to be said about a 5 man squad w/ 2 MissileLaunchers and Havoc Launcher.

Regwon wrote:

Its not about saturation with oblits. You can get more lascannon for cheaper by taking havoc than you can with oblits, but those havocs are ONLY good at killing vehicles. If you go for a variety of weapons for your havocs then they become weaker in lots of areas and much less effective than oblits.

I also dont know where you've been geting your numbers from.

An autocannon has an equal chance to penetrate a AV11 vehicle as a lascannon, 44.4% each

Its called point for point. I can take more autocannons than lascannons. Infact, its more like 6 AC shots for 2 oblits @ 150 points.
Assuming we have the following squads, both at 150 points (thanks to minigun from BaC):

"2 Obliterators vs 6 Havocks w/ 3 AutoCannons

vs AV10
2 LasCannons @ BS4 = 1.33 hits @ S9 = 1.33 hits
6 AutoCannons @ BS4 = 4 hits @ S7 = 2.66 hits

vs AV11
2 LasCannons @ BS4 = 1.33 hits @ S9 = 1.11 hits
6 AutoCannons @ BS4 = 4 hits @ S7 = 2 hits

vs AV12
2 LasCannons @ BS4 = 1.33 hits @ S9 = 0.89 hits
6 AutoCannons @ BS4 = 4 hits @ S7 = 1.33 hits

vs AV13
2 LasCannons @ BS4 = 1.33 hits @ S9 = 0.66 hits
6 AutoCannons @ BS4 = 4 hits @ S7 = 0.66 hits"


Up until AV13 theyre better. They only take out vehicles? They get 8 shots at S7 from 4 guys! How is that not good against infantry??

-----

Okay what about the Dakka Predator?

115 Points gets you

Autocannon, H. Bolter Side SPonsons and a Havoc Launcher that is Pintle mounted which can be on top of the turret.

3 STR 5 ; 1 STR 5 Blast , 2 STR 7 Shots at Ballistic 4 and the Blast is twinlinked.

sourclams wrote:And again, it depends entirely on how you play your army. Chaos as a codex are best suited to some sort of mech rush due to their cheap transports and their capability in the assault phase as well as short range shooting.

A full squad of Havocs with autocannons costs about as much as 3 Oblits. They're immobile, and they can't bunker in their rhino without losing 1/2 of their heavy weapon shots. They're good at killing AV10-12, but not as good as 3 deep striking Oblits with TL meltas or multimeltas. If you're playing a mech rush army, you'll very likely be close enough to DS the Oblits in range off of icons, so this playstyle works very well with the structure of CSM forces.

So yeah, if you're making some kind of standoffish gun line, then Havocs are good, Preds are okay, and even Land Raiders are okay. Simple fact is, though, that many armies are going to outshoot you because you don't get enough guns for the points.

Shooty Chaos from Hell is a 4th ed list. Updated 5th ed lists will probably squash it. Now I'm guessing we're going to devolve into discussions of 'No, SAFH Chaos is still good, I win all the time'. It's not, you simply don't get enough guns or Force org slots to mount enough guns for the point values.

And that's why Oblits are a good buy. Yes, they're expensive individually at 75 points, but their incredible versatility is invaluable in a codex as one-dimensional as CSM. If the majority of your heavy weapons are going to be packed into 3 Force org slots, then you need the ability to choose which heavy weapons you'll be able to fire.

You dont need the versatility when the rest of the army does it just fine. Oblits have a place in some lists, no doubt. However, if you run a balanced list with good troops and weapon selections, why do you need oblits to do everything? Why do I need meltas when I already have 8 of them in the rest of my list? Flamers are near useless with them, as they will die to nearly anything in CC, so if you have to flame, its a last resort. The point is to squeeze as many points in at the cheapest costs and still have a ton of viable guns. By mixing different HS units together, they can all do a different job (much better might I add) for get this, a cheaper cost! That means MORE guys with MORE guns too!

The one drawback to not taking them is the plasma cannon. Thats it, because their equivalents are also specific choices. Theyre nice for DSing terminators. Otherwise, theyre lacking against players who simply spread out.

I also fail to see how you have to run a gunline if youre using havocs...? Why can they simply not cover the 75% of the army thats running forward?

As I said, I have about 70 shots in my list, ~100 with rapid fire. I also have a ton of armour (, a ton of infantry (~50), and a couple of scary HQs. The reason I can do this is because Im saving points by taking more role specific choices, and in turn I get more guys that make up for what theyre lacking. More units also means more wounds, better maneuvering, and more attacks.

Oblits still only get 1 lascannon shot each. Their high price is due to versatility. If you have 3 units that all do each thing exceptionally well, why waste those extra points to have a "just in case" unit?

Woooh! I didn't think I'd be saying this, but go Night Lords!

Oblits versitility in weapons allows you to use them for a dedicated role depending on what opponent you are playing against. I have some weaknesses against both extremes (heavy armor and hordes). No one can field both, so by having Oblits I can use them to secure myself against either depending on the opponent. They won't beat out other the other dedicated options, but they fit my army. That is something I want to stress: "best" is relative.

sourclams wrote:but their incredible versatility is invaluable in a codex as one-dimensional as CSM.

Quoted for truth. Yes, I think they are great, but do agree that some roles other HS options are better. However, with the meta-game the way it is, by spending a little extra, you get a "jack of all trades" unit that is still really well in most roles. IMO, versatility is what puts them hard to pass on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh.. and yes the Plasma Cannon and Multi-Meltas on those things are pretty much my MVPs at this point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and funny enough, is that those weapons are also their nemesis.

Night lords, I agree with much of your posts. Oblits are not a cost effective, nor a particularly durable choice, and if you have more units that are specialized, against many armies you'll do better than having less units that are more generalized.

However, melta weapons are not all the same. Multimeltas are much, much better than melta guns simply because of that extra 12" range.

Also, the Oblits' twin-linked plasma is one of the only places in the game where a regular ol' plasma gun is worth a damn any more. Against some targets (non-nurgle daemon princes, hive tyrants, spread-out 2+ or 3+ save units) those twin-linked plasma guns are invaluable because of their accuracy and because they wound on 2+.

AbsoluteBlue wrote:

sourclams wrote:but their incredible versatility is invaluable in a codex as one-dimensional as CSM.

Quoted for truth. Yes, I think they are great, but do agree that some roles other HS options are better. However, with the meta-game the way it is, by spending a little extra, you get a "jack of all trades" unit that is still really well in most roles. IMO, versatility is what puts them hard to pass on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh.. and yes the Plasma Cannon and Multi-Meltas on those things are pretty much my MVPs at this point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and funny enough, is that those weapons are also their nemesis.

Exactly. It isn't that they do everything better than other units at all, that isn't what makes them good. In fact, I properly designed unit from the other HS choices will fill a specific role better than Oblits can. What the other choices simply cannot do however, is be only marginally worse than specialized units at everything (read: very good at everything, but not quite geat at anything... except maybe slinging plasma cannons around).

The Chaos book to me seems like it deals in specialized units (the cult troops are all really good at specific things... sure you can take chosen and normal CSM and make them versatile, but they're no better at that than tactical squads, which breeds the necessity to have diverse power units that are able to perform well in any situation you toss in front of them). You can also take different cult units to fill different roles, but you're still only getting pieces of the puzzle at a time.

FWIW: Obliterators have been absolutely outstanding in my CSM lists to the point where there is simply no replacement for them. They are able to threaten anything that is pt on the table opposing them, which ensures tha they are NEVER points that could have been betterspent elsewhere. A unit of Lascannon Havocs will do basically nothing against a horde of Orks, so in those types of matchups they're way below par. A unit of Heavy Bolter Havocs will do nothinguseful agaisnt a mechanized army,so in those matchups they're subpar. The Oblits bring options to make them scary against both hordes and mech type lists, as well as whatever else the other guy ca think of. Because of this the make their way into competitive armies more often than other choices. If you're going to a 5 round GT then you need to be able t handle a wide range of threats because there are quit a few good armies out there. Because of this, in a competitive environment, Oblits will get you the most milage in most situations. This depends also on the specific build and playstyle of the army and sometimes there are better choices. Their strength is their diversity and that is wildly attractive to armies that need to be able to effectively deal with whatever is put in front of them with little to no advance knowledge of what the opposition will be.

I'd like to disagree on a few points:

Obliterators are as specialized as any other unit in the Codex: they're for close support and that's about it. Dreadnoughts(!) do Plasma Cannons better, and every other support unit does their thing better. But if you want a unit dropping in to support Terminators, they're your goto unit.

Chaos Space Marines are more flexible than Tactical Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines can have two special weapons, adjust their strengths via Icons, synergize with teleport units using Icons, take a better transport (Rhino vs Razorback where the Rhino has options to take Daemonic Possession, Havoc Launcher, repair Immobilized results, carry ten Marines, have two shoot out the top fire points, etc), fight in close combat as well (or better thanks to Icons) than Assault Marines, and have higher Leadership. They buy these advantages at the cost of being brittle, since they might keep running if they do Fall Back, but then a smart opponent keeps a fast unit or two within 6" of a unit of Tactical Space Marines that Falls Back as well.

Something to remember is that a unit of Havocs can be just as flexible as a unit of Obliterators, and perhaps more because they are basically Chaos Space Marines. Unlike Obliterators, they can have Icons. They can have a transport (with Havoc Launcher or Combi-Weapon), Missile Launchers, Autocannons, and an Aspiring Champion for that Power Weapon (Power Fists are nice until that's all you have, then I2 units bone you first) and Combi-Weapon. They'll fight more effectively at close combat, and absorb anti-tank fire more efficiently.

A unit of ten Havocs with two Lascannons, two Melta Guns, and a Rhino, will be effective both against Land Raiders and Battlewagons, while remaining effective against their contents, more mobile, and better protected. Those extra bodies aren't just extra wounds, they're extra Chaos Space Marines.

willydstyle wrote:Night lords, I agree with much of your posts. Oblits are not a cost effective, nor a particularly durable choice, and if you have more units that are specialized, against many armies you'll do better than having less units that are more generalized.

However, melta weapons are not all the same. Multimeltas are much, much better than melta guns simply because of that extra 12" range.

Also, the Oblits' twin-linked plasma is one of the only places in the game where a regular ol' plasma gun is worth a damn any more. Against some targets (non-nurgle daemon princes, hive tyrants, spread-out 2+ or 3+ save units) those twin-linked plasma guns are invaluable because of their accuracy and because they wound on 2+.

Im not saying theyre bad, Im just saying you dont need to pay for all of their guns when youre still only using 1 a turn. I have Raptors with 2 meltas and a PF in my list that outrange the multimelta on an oblit anyways (12" move + 6" = 18", 2D6" + 12" = 13-18"), plus they can hop over buildings and assault really well with 4 attacks each.

Twin Linked Plasma guns are nice, youre right. However, theyre very situational, and if you feel theyre necessary, you can simply buy both a melta and a plasma on two seperate units for a cheaper cost. Plasma cannons are hard to come by, so thats why I feel theyre the only real disadvantage.

Nurglitch wrote:Dreadnoughts(!) do Plasma Cannons better, and every other support unit does their thing better.

Whoa...what?

You can have 2 oblits for 1 dread with a plasma cannon, and the oblits can deepstrike, get cover easier, and don't become useless 1/3 of the time. (A 1 means your dread fires it's plasma cannon at you, and a 6 means he doesn't fire at all.)

Awesome thread guys. I'm not a Chaos player, but I wanted to toss in one more point for the Heavy Support choices that are vehicles or take a vehicle as a dedicated transport.

Tank Shock.

Never underestimate it, it's the poor man's Lash, and my Ultramarines have perfected "Rhino herding" as I call it (Texan, what did you expect?) to get troops into a template sized killzone for a Redeemer Flamestorm template.

Point being, Obliterators (which I personally find scary and annoying) are great, but they can never tank shock a unit off the board or move 18" on a road. Small points, I know, but sometimes I find those small points making the most difference in my games.

The Predator and Vindicator also have decent chances to Ram successfully against transports, being FAV13. I once won a game by one kill point because my Demolisher-less Vindicator got a lucky roll ramming a Drop Pod. In the case of the Tri-Las Predator finding itself facing down a mob of boys for 5 turns, it will kill 13-15 Boyz, then tank shock the survivors. But what about that PK Nob you say and his opportunity to Death or Glory? He'll Auto Hit at Str 8! Yes, however, even on a pentrate, he's got a 50/50 shot of actually getting Immobilized or better on the table, which means you have a 50/50 shot of squishing the expensive dangerous squad leader with a "useless tank".

WAAAA <crunch> ......

Besides, why shoot at the ork mob with it when you could be shooting at the Nob Bikers and Insta-Killing 1-3 a round, or the Battlewagons that seem to be everywhere now?

Obliterators are great and have their place, but they are still heavy infantry. A tank is a tank is a tank when it comes time to run some green buggers down.

I just dont think either is worse than the other and both can serve very different roles for your army.

(A 1 means your dread fires it's plasma cannon at you, and a 6 means he doesn't fire at all.)

Ima clear this up right now.
A 1 means your dread fires it's plasma cannon at the closest unit TWICE. It is your job to ensure that this is the enemy, not a friendly unit. NOT a hard job.
A 6 means he moves 6+1d6 inches to get into assault with the nearest enemy. Not the best thing, but it could serve to get into a position to bully some weaker units, or get a better LOS. This is the worst thing that could happen, and it's still not that bad.
Im sick and tired of people thinking that if you take a chaos dreadnought it's just gunna sit back and either sit uselessly, or fire all it's guns at you the whole time. It's kind of unreliable, but not NEARLY that unreliable.

If you're playing the rules correctly, then the dread has a good chance of firing at the baddies.

If you're playing how most players expect you to, then the dread will fire at your own stuff.

People expect me to break the rules for their benefit?

Canonness Rory wrote:People expect me to break the rules for their benefit?

The short of it is... yes.

Well I guess im TFGirl then, because i've been rules-lawyering with my dreadnoughts this entire time.

Something to mention about Vindicators is that you can avoid the brittleness and short range of their Demolisher Cannon by adding Daemonic Possession and a Havoc Launcher. The Havoc Launcher gives you long range accurate anti-infantry blasts, and a weapon to destroy instead of the Demolisher.