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Page 18 of the DH codex under the title

Nemis Force Weapon

All grey knights carry some form of the nemesis force weapon, be it a sanctified sword, axe or halbread.

What I am wanting to know is that somebody said that these were the only weapon grey knights could carry if you converted them up. I pointed out the fact that they carry some form of the weapon and that these are just listing of some of the types they carry. It was a bit of personally issue and the last section before the effects stats this.

nfm are one handed weapons and have the following characteristics when wielded by different ranks of grey knights..

Just for grins could it be a terminator fist that is consecrated and anointed with sacred oils, psychically charged and inscribed with devotional scripts and wards?

When did at one point in the game have fist and power fist if you all can think back that far. 2nd/3rd ed....

I am in the mist of converting them over any ways but just wanted some of the boards feed back.

Uh, yeah, as long as it's recognisable as a NFW.

Before you ask: No, Slain Outright is not the same as Instant Death.

I agree with Cheese, feel free!

Personally I think WYSIWYG is more for Independent Characters who can have all sorts of interesting things that other models normally can't.

Since ALL Grey Knights have NFW in their equipment (except Assault Terminators, ya?), as long as they have some kind of melee weapon you should be able to model them howsoever you choose. Especially if you're planning on converting up those power fists to look very 'holy', anointed, etc. Just remember that you can no longer count them as Powerfists (i.e. Strength x2, Initiative 1).

Happy converting.

DoW

NFW are never described as being fists, and the fist is universally recognized as a power fist. It would be confusing.

i think its a cool idea, though you should not just use a power fist, paint it up real cool, slap on purity seals, though.

A NFW fist-type weapon should be a regular hand, having some kind of energy ball coming out of the palm (like a rasengan from naruto)

All i say is if you just use a powerfist, you lose all originality and the project is only to confuse your opponent into thinking they all have powerfists.

Tarval wrote:
When did at one point in the game have fist and power fist if you all can think back that far. 2nd/3rd ed....

There's never been a non-power fist....

However, a suitably converted powerfist isn't too bad a proxy I suppose, although they are going to look a lot like normal terminators. Personally, I'd get fed up of having to explain what they are every game.

Can Grey Knights take regular power fists?

POWER FISTS FOR THE MASSES!

.... I wish i had a power fist....

POWER FISTS FOR THE MASSES!

.... I wish i had a power fist....

'Counts As' is perfectly acceptable almost anywhere - just make it really clear that it's somehow cooler than a normal powerfist. If you just slap a different paintjob on a regular p-fist, people will look at them askance at best, and insultingly at worst.

I'd recommend some engraved text like the rest of the grey knight armour, extra power cables, a big fat and a bunch of purity seals.

I don't see why you couldn't but you would need to do something along the lines of what unistoo said. If at all possible put some engraved text on it.

You could use the new Guard power fist as it's smaller, and less noticble as a Power Fist, just convert that up.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Can Grey Knights take regular power fists?

I think not.

You can take a powerfist on your Grey Knight ICs but they are not NFW.

Really? Which ones? I reread through the codex before posting. What did I miss this time? ^^

kirsanth wrote:Really? Which ones? I reread through the codex before posting. What did I miss this time? ^^

Grey Knight Heroes and Brother-Captains can be given items from the armoury IIRC

Sure but there is not a Power Fist in the armoury.

Chain Fist, yes. But I do not see Power Fist.

I'll take your word for it - I don't have my 'dex with me at the moment.

Grey Knights do get to trade their weapons for a Thunder Hammer however.

Strange, my copy of codex: DaemonHunters does have Power fists in the Armoury pg.16 One handed weapons.
They can only be taken by models with Terminator armour.

There's never been a non-power fist....

However, a suitably converted powerfist isn't too bad a proxy I suppose, although they are going to look a lot like normal terminators. Personally, I'd get fed up of having to explain what they are every game.

I guess you just started 40k as your answer to the question shows in your first line of text. Though your next set of text does answer the question some what. The main issue is in the reading if a power fist from the terminator line could be used as a one handed NFW per the wording in the text. Yes we have had Power fist and Fist from older ed in the game, that was the one reason I used them in the ard boys as I had not finished my work with the set of ten. Though as of now I have already converted up seven and will finish the next three this week. So they will have power weapon for now until I move into the next step of coversion. Though it was just a question because I was about to be DQ because they said it was a proxy even though I had a ton of hard core converted models.


Thanks for the most part on trying to answer the question even though it seemed it went way off topic. I just wanted to know if the wording would allow a squad to have the anointed fist?

SeattleDV8 wrote:Strange, my copy of codex: DaemonHunters does have Power fists in the Armoury pg.16 One handed weapons.
They can only be taken by models with Terminator armour.

Thanks for the clarification. I was missing page 16 from my dex and had to trust Army Builder was right. ?????!!!

Tarval wrote:

There's never been a non-power fist....

However, a suitably converted powerfist isn't too bad a proxy I suppose, although they are going to look a lot like normal terminators. Personally, I'd get fed up of having to explain what they are every game.

I guess you just started 40k as your answer to the question shows in your first line of text. Though your next set of text does answer the question some what. The main issue is in the reading if a power fist from the terminator line could be used as a one handed NFW per the wording in the text. Yes we have had Power fist and Fist from older ed in the game, that was the one reason I used them in the ard boys as I had not finished my work with the set of ten. Though as of now I have already converted up seven and will finish the next three this week. So they will have power weapon for now until I move into the next step of coversion. Though it was just a question because I was about to be DQ because they said it was a proxy even though I had a ton of hard core converted models.


Thanks for the most part on trying to answer the question even though it seemed it went way off topic. I just wanted to know if the wording would allow a squad to have the anointed fist?

I think most people are just trying to warn you that just putting Power Fists on your GKs and counting them as NFW will confuse some players and they might assume that they are just regular Power Fists. This could give them a tactical disadvantage if they are assuming you're going to strike at I1, don't get a bonus attack, etc. While the responsibility ultimately lies with the opponent to ask you what they are so he knows what he's facing, it's understandable that he or she could assume since a PF is so recognisable.

Either way, I really don't believe there's a hard and fast rule about how you HAVE to model your NFW. The rules do state a couple of options but it would be silly to assume those are the only choices you can have, especially since GKs are supposed to be very personalized and individual by the fluff.

Ultimately I'd say it's your choice. It's probably a good idea to convert them enough to make them unrecognisable as Power Fists, but I think it's up to you. If it were me, I would probably put a single blade on the PF so it doesn't look like a lightning claw or a chainfist. But that's just me.

Worst comes to absolute worst and people still complain. Write "NEMESIS FORCE WEAPONS" on a piece of paper and put it by the squad. Then all whining from your opponent will hopefully cease.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:While the responsibility ultimately lies with the opponent to ask you what they are so he knows what he's facing

I disagree, if you are doing a non-WYSIWYG or 'counts as' army or piece of warger, it is totally your own responsibility to make sure they know, and remind them at suitable times if necessary - that is the whole point of WYSIWYG really.

unistoo wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:While the responsibility ultimately lies with the opponent to ask you what they are so he knows what he's facing

I disagree, if you are doing a non-WYSIWYG or 'counts as' army or piece of warger, it is totally your own responsibility to make sure they know, and remind them at suitable times if necessary - that is the whole point of WYSIWYG really.

You're right, that is one of the reasons for WYSIWYG but I have two disagreements with your statement.

First, with a squad of troops that are ALWAYS equipped with a certain piece of wargear and can never be equipped with anything else, then the only reason someone might be confused is if they haven't faced that squad or army before. In that situation, I would expect the person to immediately ask to see the Codex or be briefed on all the necessary details. For this example, all Grey Knights have NFW. If you don't know that, then you have a responsibility to ask or look up those abilities for yourself. No-one is saying you have to be an expert with every single army out there, but whatever happened to "know thy enemy"?

And second, if I personally was to play against a Tau player (an army I rarely see in battle) I would make it a point to ask and clarify anything I wasn't sure of. Why should my opponent assume I don't know anything about Tau and explain every single unit and what its equipped with? Should he do that every game, with every opponent? No, that's just silly, and would be a huge waste of time. If someone isn't sure what something is or they have a question it's their responsibility to ask. The opponent, on the other hand, has a responsibility to provide the resources necessary to answer any of those questions (Codex, Army List, FAQ, etc) but they aren't there to hold your hand.

This being said, I will grant you that highly recognisable wargear being used as 'counts as' is probably more confusing than really necessary, but I don't have a problem with it. Worst comes to worst, would be surprised when we get to the assault phase, but really I only have myself to blame. I assumed something, and I was wrong. There's no way that's my opponent's fault.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but it really does irritate me when people get mad that they didn't know something had a capability, or that a weapon was a certain range. If you're unsure, why not ask? My Codex and Army list are right here available for you. Please don't blame me for your assumptions and mistakes.

DoW

SeattleDV8 wrote:Strange, my copy of codex: DaemonHunters does have Power fists in the Armoury pg.16 One handed weapons.
They can only be taken by models with Terminator armour.

WOW!
Mine too. I just checked my hard copy after reading this thread again.

no page 16 on my scan. I need to redo a number of those now, too many books to actually carry around...

Apologies.

I see what you're saying DoW - but you're misinterpreting my point a little, if I may clarify:

WYSIWYG exists to prevent this kind of confusion. Now, There is not usually a problem if you say 'all of X in my army count as Y' especially if you're not using anything similar-looking in your army, and all of your X's have been converted to look different from other X's your opponent may have encountered. In this case, pointing it out at the start of the game is sufficient.

If you're using multiple 'counts as' then, unless X is obviously similar in shape or theme to Y, then it is your responsibility to either a)point it out whenever necessary, including giving them the benefit if the doubt and reminding them if you think they are making an error in judgment; b) give them some kind of reference card, or at the very least; c) give them a copy of your army list.

In short, my point is that WYSIWYG is a rule, albeit one that is quite rightly flexible, and if you are not going to follow the rule, you need to make sure you do it in as sportsmanlike way as possible. In both cases, it is still your responsibility to take all necessary steps to eliminate confusion.

Your point about your opponent's lack of knowledge of an army list is a little different albeit related - it is a problem not restricted to WYSIWYG, and is more or less down to attitude.

Nenya97 wrote:
A NFW fist-type weapon should be a regular hand, having some kind of energy ball coming out of the palm (like a rasengan from naruto)

OT, but really?? "From Naruto?" Hell, even Street Fighter predates Naruto.

unistoo wrote:I see what you're saying DoW - but you're misinterpreting my point a little, if I may clarify:

WYSIWYG exists to prevent this kind of confusion. Now, There is not usually a problem if you say 'all of X in my army count as Y' especially if you're not using anything similar-looking in your army, and all of your X's have been converted to look different from other X's your opponent may have encountered. In this case, pointing it out at the start of the game is sufficient.

If you're using multiple 'counts as' then, unless X is obviously similar in shape or theme to Y, then it is your responsibility to either a)point it out whenever necessary, including giving them the benefit if the doubt and reminding them if you think they are making an error in judgment; b) give them some kind of reference card, or at the very least; c) give them a copy of your army list.

In short, my point is that WYSIWYG is a rule, albeit one that is quite rightly flexible, and if you are not going to follow the rule, you need to make sure you do it in as sportsmanlike way as possible. In both cases, it is still your responsibility to take all necessary steps to eliminate confusion.

Your point about your opponent's lack of knowledge of an army list is a little different albeit related - it is a problem not restricted to WYSIWYG, and is more or less down to attitude.

Okay I think I see what you're saying and unfortunately I'm inclined to agree.

I think perhaps I worry too much that this could result in requiring you to 'babysit' your opponent too much. If I'm playing a friend (who may or may not be new to the game) then I am obliged to give him any pointers, reminders or asides that might stop him from using his Firewarriors to assault my Ogryns since I'm cool like that, and it's most definitely sportsmanlike. Additionally, if any opponent (friend, opponent or TFG) asks you a question about your transports, wargear, etc, then of course you have to answer them honestly as well.

The line I draw is that if an opponent watches me kill two squads of his guys with my NFW armed Grey Knights the first two turns, then assaults them with a third squad and calls foul because we strike at the same initiative (because he argues the NFW look like Power Fists). I think that's taking the responsibility to eliminate confusion too far. If he is making a tactical mistake, even if it is somewhat related to a non-WYSIWYG situation, that really is his fault.

Buuuuuuut, in the end you're still right. If you're a nice guy you should probably still tell him "hey, you remember those guys were badasses in CC, right?" and save him the humiliation. But I'm NOT nice and I say you learn more from your mistakes, dammit!

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:
Buuuuuuut, in the end you're still right. If you're a nice guy you should probably still tell him "hey, you remember those guys were badasses in CC, right?" and save him the humiliation. But I'm NOT nice and I say you learn more from your mistakes, dammit!

DoW

Right. And one of the responses to that may be, "I know what my mistake was, it was allowing TFG to use power fists to count as Nemesis Force weapons," which may not be the lesson you expected them to learn.