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solkan wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:
Buuuuuuut, in the end you're still right. If you're a nice guy you should probably still tell him "hey, you remember those guys were badasses in CC, right?" and save him the humiliation. But I'm NOT nice and I say you learn more from your mistakes, dammit!

DoW

Right. And one of the responses to that may be, "I know what my mistake was, it was allowing TFG to use power fists to count as Nemesis Force weapons," which may not be the lesson you expected them to learn.

If they responded like that, I would most definitely not be interested in playing them again. That's the kind of person that will always point the blame somewhere other than themselves. In the specific situation I described, there were more than enough resources available: army lists, codexes, previous close combat situations, and ample opportunity to ask questions. If someone chooses to remain oblivious and does something silly as a result, then blaming someone else for their mistake is just childish.

These are the kind of people that grow up to blame McDonald's for giving them hot coffee and Burger King for making them fat. I cannot stand it when the rest of us are forced to live in their 'nanny-state' because they are too lazy to take responsibility for their actions.

(By the way, I'm assuming this isn't your viewpoint and only that of a possible, hypothetical person.)

DoW

I dont know what most Grey Knight armies look like, but I have seen only two, and on both of them, their NFW were very distinctive (one had them painted a glittery blue, and the other had used a neon green) and unmistakable. Now if either of those guys had had a unit with powerfists which were painted just like all their other NFW, I dont think I would have needed anyone to explain what they were. Even knowing nothing else about the GK, I would assume that they carried some property in common.

In much the same fashion, I assume ever gun that has a promethium tank sticking off of it will fire a flame burst under some circumstances, I think that some things are readily apparent upon viewing the model. I think that if all of your NFW were distinctive (the modified powerfists and all the other ones in the army included) and distinctive in the same way (covered in purity seals like a mummy, painted an incandescent color, etc) then it's pretty obvious that they are all NFW. I think that satisfies the requirements of WYSIWYG just fine, and if you run into any trouble, a simple 'these fists are NFW' before the game starts is all that is required.

I am not a 'new' player, but everyone around here plays the same thing, so I am occasionally running into something I am unfamiliar with. Just because I dont know their Codex backwards and forwards is no reason to make my opponent read me every statline of every model, and explain in exausting detail everything. If i dont know or understand how his army works, I may very well (hell, probably will) lose. But, that's how you learn. Why just last week, I learned that hilarious clown-painted space elves with what looks like twenty-ounce soda bottles strapped to their wrist are not nearly as silly as I thought they were. And now I know.

In the Grey Knight novel Battle-Brother Dvorn carries a Nemesis Force Hammer which is an exception to the information in the Daemonhunters codex. I do not know why one could not have a force weapon fist - although it would be a bit off the beaten path. Just make sure it is clear that it is a Nemesis Force Weapon before your game starts, and then if your opponent has an issue with it he or she is simply TFG.

I'd find nothing wrong with a Nemesis Force Fist (Hammer, Claw, whatever), especially when my opponent advises me that the Power Fist in that squad is a Nemesis weapon. Its just a game, and the correct protocol would have been followed once the explanation was provided.

Of coures, I still have 2nd Space Marine figures with incorrect/illegal weapon selection simply because the rules have shifted what can and what cannot be fielded in a game with each new codex release. I'll field an assault squad of Marines sporting power fists and power axes and simply say, "These guys? All power weapons." Once my opponent acknowledges this, then its all good. If they don't like it, I'd like an explanation as to why, seeing as it has no bearing on the game what my guys are carrying once my opponent has been informed and I stay consistant (no other model in the army has a purchased power fist).

SJ