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Timmah wrote:5man squad of terminators TH/SS + nullzone librarian.
Will leave you with way more points than him to spend on other stuff, plus your CC squad will win in a fight.

Against attacks that hit on a 3+ and wound on a 2+ you're likely to lose at least a couple of those guys before they even get to go, and the stormshields are no help when they're relying on their 2+ save.

I like using fuzzier math and approximations because I find it's easier to see how things can turn out in an actual game, so I'm not going to represent things in fractional or decimal kills, saves, etc.

Hmmm... this might work alright, though. Lets say your opponent spends about the same number of points on is warlock jetbikers. This means only 4 of the little guys. They get the charge... well because it's next to impossible for them not to (he'd have to be a very, very bad player...) So that's 12 attacks, 8 hits (embolden: don't leave home without it), 7ish wounds (almost guaranteed 8 if they're doomed... lets go ahead and assume that) Means you lose 1 and a fraction terminators. If we take into account twin-linked shuriken catapult and possible destructor templates before the assault, lets call it 2 dead terminators. Using combat tactics to try to run away would be too risky, as the bikes get to move 6" in the assault phase no matter what.

So, 6 swings back, 3 hits, lets call it 3 wounds. Here's where things get tricky. You can only use null zone on your own turn, so that's not going to factor into the initial assault. So it comes down to whether or not the hood stopped the fortune. With ties going to the enemy psyker, it's not something you can rely on at all. Some quick and dirty math suggests that you have about a 40% chance of success with a hood...

So, if your hood stops the fortune, you kill one or two bikers.

If your hood does not stop the fortune, then you're looking at... lets call it one dead biker, and a tied combat.

I guess that these guys might be OK against the bikers, but your opponent has the choice as to whether or not he wants to engage them because he has far superior speed.

starbomber109 wrote:Actually I saw a blog post on this very subject

but yeah, rapid fire him to death, and a psychic hood wouldn't hurt. Also, assault terminators can normally beat or stall a vanilla seer on a bike.

You do realize how durable a re-rollable 3+ save is to small arms fire, don't you? "rapid fire him to death" is one of the least efficient ways to do it.

The most efficient way to do it is mass power-weapon attacks. So lightning claw terminators would do best, but they would also be more vulnerable to any AP1/2 or power weapon attacks that your opponent's army might be swinging.

Timmah wrote:You forget that hood stops everything, or can stop everything. Destructor, doom, ect. So rounding up on all his attacks you would kill 2 terminators.

Librarian gets swings (with force weapon) also. So 8 attacks. 4 hit (1 w/force weapon) Librarian attacks farseer (yay new combat rules) and swings at the same time as the initial ones I believe.

Librarian has a pretty good shot at wounding and killing said farseer. Terminators than kill 1-2 warlocks.

So now we have 4-5 warlocks against 1 librarian and 3 terminators. I personally would take the SM in that situation

Hood only has a chance to stop powers that require a psychic test. Warlock powers cannot be stopped by a hood. I also didn't take into account the librarian or farseers attacks into the equation. The librarian can only attack the farseer if the Eldar player puts the farseer into B2B with the librarian, but given Runes of Warding's chance to stop the force weapon from working, combined with fortune (honestly, if the fortune fails the Eldar player ensures the combat doesn't even take place) and the Farseer's weapon skill... eh, libby doesn't have a great chance to kill the farseer, honestly.

Actually, I was comparing similar points costs. The guy said it's going to be a 650 point game. Against 650 points of bikers... well 200 points of TH/SS terminators are just gonna die.

Don't forget that you can only direct attacks against the farseer that are from models in B2B. Again, since the Eldar player is next-to-guaranteed to get the assault, he will get to determine who is in B2B with whom.

Autarchs are not points-efficient killing machines at all. They exist almost solely for the +1 to reserves rolls.

You'd still have to kill enough of the unit to force a morale check.

The jetseer council has rerollable 3+ armor saves that an AP 4 weapon is just going to have a very hard time getting past.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Land Raider Redeemer, ignores their armor save, ignores their cover save. Transport your HQ choice in it with some tac marines.

The only problem is that the Jetcouncil might include a few Witchblades, which are Str 9. You don't want a lot of Str. 9 attacks pounding on your Redeemer.

Nah, the redeemer's one of the better options. It can move 12" and get a bunch of armor-ignoring hits on the jetseers. Sure it might get beat up in return, but with the limited number of bikelocks that the guy is going to be able to afford hitting on 6s and penning on 6s means that it's going to be a tough fight either way.

I think the redeemer is the winner.

Sliggoth wrote:A redeemer would certainly be very good if hes taking an autarch with the council. The autarch is hard hitting on infantry with good armor saves but even with his lance is weak against armor. The idea would be to take a librarian inside the LR to combat the psychic powers?

The largest council would likely be a farseer plus 7-8 warlocks, 7 being the more likely. If we go with 7 then the charge will only have 24 attacks, 4 hitting. Would be roughly 67% chance of a glance and 67% chance of a pen. A pen would of course be the worry, since a third of the pens will destroy and a sixth will immobilize (which on the initial charge will mean the LR will almost certainly be destroyed next turn). So we have the pen taking care of the LR a third of the time, and the glance another one sixth.

So overall the council will immobilize or destroy the LR half the time on the charge, with the odds of at least a shaken extremely high.

With only one flamestorm cannon able to fire, its not going to be easy to get many of the warlock's bases under the template...so it seems unlikely that more than one will die. Unless the LR isnt going to move at cruising speed the next turn? Moving at combat speed allows hits on 4+ so should be avoided at all cost.

So while the LR would certainly be a tough target for the council, it (plus the librarian passeneger) doesnt really seem to be the answer.



Sliggoth

Tank shock makes it easier to get more jetbikes under the template.

With a minimum 130 spent on the farseer, and minimum 120 spent on troops, you're correct in that you'd be looking at 7-8 warlocks on the table... but the rest of his army would be so flimsy it might mean you can win the game even if you can't deal with the council... but given 4 turns of killin stuff... I guess it would be long odds.

Timmah wrote:What would be kinda funny is taking DH allies with psycannons. They ignore invuln saves and since bike councils don't even have a normal save (i believe). Every wound is going to kill one.

Not to mention a nice 36" range and grey knights aren't too shabby in CC if they get assaulted. Ofc they will probably lose in an assault so I would keep them moving.

The Eldar jet bike confers a 3+ armor save upon the model riding it. This is what makes bike councils so good.

130 points is also 5 harlequins w/ kisses. That's 15 attacks base, +5 for charging.

20 attacks at WS5, init 7, str 4 with rending is way better than those 6 attacks.

Not points-efficient.