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Just what the title says its gonna be a 650pt game. Any ideas?

Same way you kill it in other games, lots of small arms fire. Also a Psychic Hood is usefully to mess with Fortune and Guide.

I'm curious to see what else he is running in that small of a points game; 2 things of Pathfinders?

Terminators.

Bring Lightning Claw Terminators and a Librarian with Null Zone.

Librarian 100
10 Assault Termies with Lightning Claws 400

5 Marines

5 Marines

This may even leave you with enough points for a Rhino or razorback.

Yeah, lots of small arms fire. Nullzone. Psychic hood.

A 650pt game seems rather dull if someone is bringing a jetbike seer council.

Yeah. I personally wouldn't bring a seer council in anything short of a 655 pt game.

I'm very curious seeing his army list...
You don't actually have to beat the council but just tie them up with lets say a unit of marines and focus on the rest of his army. My friend does this always against me. he gets me stuck with a marine squad and there my 500 points council stays most of the game.

Jupiter wrote:I'm very curious seeing his army list...
You don't actually have to beat the council but just tie them up with lets say a unit of marines and focus on the rest of his army. My friend does this always against me. he gets me stuck with a marine squad and there my 500 points council stays most of the game.

Its hard to tie it up it if contains Eldrad and Yriel.
A Council with a Farseer is just an anvil unit, while Eldrad and Yriel turn it into a hammer and anvil unit.
Your Marines will then live not long enough.

Its not a fearless squad, tank shock it, when it fails, escort it off the board by staying within 6 inches of it.

Augustus wrote:Its not a fearless squad, tank shock it, when it fails, escort it off the board by staying within 6 inches of it.

That's a wish.
If the unit has embolden, it can reroll the failed save.

Witchblades struggle against 2+ armor saves. At 650 points, it's unlikely that eldrad will make an appearance.

Bring a Ten Man Squad of Space Marine Snipers and a Whirlwind.

Force Pinning checks.

5man squad of terminators TH/SS + nullzone librarian.
Will leave you with way more points than him to spend on other stuff, plus your CC squad will win in a fight.

Timmah wrote:5man squad of terminators TH/SS + nullzone librarian.
Will leave you with way more points than him to spend on other stuff, plus your CC squad will win in a fight.

Against attacks that hit on a 3+ and wound on a 2+ you're likely to lose at least a couple of those guys before they even get to go, and the stormshields are no help when they're relying on their 2+ save.

I like using fuzzier math and approximations because I find it's easier to see how things can turn out in an actual game, so I'm not going to represent things in fractional or decimal kills, saves, etc.

Hmmm... this might work alright, though. Lets say your opponent spends about the same number of points on is warlock jetbikers. This means only 4 of the little guys. They get the charge... well because it's next to impossible for them not to (he'd have to be a very, very bad player...) So that's 12 attacks, 8 hits (embolden: don't leave home without it), 7ish wounds (almost guaranteed 8 if they're doomed... lets go ahead and assume that) Means you lose 1 and a fraction terminators. If we take into account twin-linked shuriken catapult and possible destructor templates before the assault, lets call it 2 dead terminators. Using combat tactics to try to run away would be too risky, as the bikes get to move 6" in the assault phase no matter what.

So, 6 swings back, 3 hits, lets call it 3 wounds. Here's where things get tricky. You can only use null zone on your own turn, so that's not going to factor into the initial assault. So it comes down to whether or not the hood stopped the fortune. With ties going to the enemy psyker, it's not something you can rely on at all. Some quick and dirty math suggests that you have about a 40% chance of success with a hood...

So, if your hood stops the fortune, you kill one or two bikers.

If your hood does not stop the fortune, then you're looking at... lets call it one dead biker, and a tied combat.

I guess that these guys might be OK against the bikers, but your opponent has the choice as to whether or not he wants to engage them because he has far superior speed.

Hence why Lightning Claws would be the better deal.

A 5 man Grey Knight squad with 2 Incinerator's and the Justicar with Psycannon Bolts, take as FA they can teleport in.

Or an allied Inquisitor with a Pysychic Hood enough retinue to get him up to LD10, and maybe an incinerator or Psycannon could work too.

Inquisitor Lord with a psychic hood, and if playing Marines, a Librarian with Null Zone.

Yes you want to shut down Fortune first. If you can do this then the odds dramatically increase in your favor. I recently played a game with my BA versus eldar. I charged a mounted seer council with a full assault squad and a full tactical squad and had the benefit of furious charge. The eldar player made every save and there were only four warlocks plus the farseer. His dice were red hot during his saving throws to say the least. Each squad of Marines also had a power fist as well. It was just amazing. If I could have shutdown Fortune it would have made a huge difference but I had no defense against psychic powers unfortunately. If not for Fortune the hold seer council would have been utterly destroyed.

G

Just wanted to point out that since the OP is talking about a JETcouncil Eldrad and Yriel wont have anything at all to do with the combats, since they cant ride bikes.


With two five man squads of DA taking 120 points the council would have 530 points to play with, perhaps a bit larger council than some are thinking. Hmm, could probably squeeze a farseer and 6-7 warlocks, depending on exactly what powers would be taken.
Farseer for 160ish, one enhance and two embolden warlocks...hmm, maybe 7 warlocks total with 3 destructors.

That would mean 24 attacks on the charge, which coupled with the extra shooting (three templates plus 5 tl shurikens) might mean that 5 termies plus a librarian could be in trouble, going by willydstyle's math.

So probably would want to max out the termies, taking two scout squads would give you 500 points to spend on them. Libarian would be 125ish so could have 8 termies. That sounds a bit more solid.

The council is an all or nothing unit of course, it either wins the game or loses the game since the DA dont really matter.

What would really be bad of course would be if hes taking an autarch. Could be six str6 power weapon attacks in the mix. The good thing is that he would run 130 points, so several fewer warlocks. It is a strong arguement for taking the storm shields tho.... 3+ invuln save is going to be looking a lot better than 5+. With the autarch's WS plus the possibility of doom it wouldnt be at all impossible to have to take 5 or 6 invulnerable saves ... would be really ugly to roll 1-4 six times.



Sliggoth

Take Thunder hammers, and try to make the farseer take saves from ID.

Hollismason wrote:Bring a Ten Man Squad of Space Marine Snipers and a Whirlwind.

Force Pinning checks.

Well, the Seers can reroll failed Ld checks if at least one Jetlock has embolden.

Yeah with embolden the odds of failing are pretty small.

It's amazing the difference fortune makes. I charged a seer council with a bunch of basic marines, only one guy had a power weapon - won combat by 3, chased them off the board.

Fortuned squad, charged with those same marines, another squad with a power weapon, and a daemon prince, and all bounced off harmlessly. He did one wound to one of the noisemarine squads, a 10-man squad involved in the combat but took no casualties ran away, and was shepherded off the board by some other jetbike squad.

Never took a casualty in that squad :(

Belial
5 man term w/ AC, TH/SS sarge
5 man term w/ AC, TH/SS sarge

Actually I saw a blog post on this very subject

but yeah, rapid fire him to death, and a psychic hood wouldn't hurt. Also, assault terminators can normally beat or stall a vanilla seer on a bike.

starbomber109 wrote:Actually I saw a blog post on this very subject

but yeah, rapid fire him to death, and a psychic hood wouldn't hurt. Also, assault terminators can normally beat or stall a vanilla seer on a bike.

You do realize how durable a re-rollable 3+ save is to small arms fire, don't you? "rapid fire him to death" is one of the least efficient ways to do it.

The most efficient way to do it is mass power-weapon attacks. So lightning claw terminators would do best, but they would also be more vulnerable to any AP1/2 or power weapon attacks that your opponent's army might be swinging.

You forget that hood stops everything, or can stop everything. Destructor, doom, ect. So rounding up on all his attacks you would kill 2 terminators.

Librarian gets swings (with force weapon) also. So 8 attacks. 4 hit (1 w/force weapon) Librarian attacks farseer (yay new combat rules) and swings at the same time as the initial ones I believe.

Librarian has a pretty good shot at wounding and killing said farseer. Terminators than kill 1-2 warlocks.

So now we have 4-5 warlocks against 1 librarian and 3 terminators. I personally would take the SM in that situation

willydstyle wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:Actually I saw a blog post on this very subject

but yeah, rapid fire him to death, and a psychic hood wouldn't hurt. Also, assault terminators can normally beat or stall a vanilla seer on a bike.

You do realize how durable a re-rollable 3+ save is to small arms fire, don't you? "rapid fire him to death" is one of the least efficient ways to do it.

The most efficient way to do it is mass power-weapon attacks. So lightning claw terminators would do best, but they would also be more vulnerable to any AP1/2 or power weapon attacks that your opponent's army might be swinging.

On second thought, I think your right, and this is a much smaller game than the blogger was playing (so, bloggers opponent had room for three drop pods full of tac marines with bolters). If he's got tons of points tied up in the council, then the terminators are the way to go. Get the concil stuck in close combat with something, while you destroy the rest of his army.

edit: Alternatively, you could shoot him to death with an IG gunline, but you need some kind of speedbump so your shooting unit doesn't get assaulted first. IG can take hidden power weapons too IIRC so that might mess him up when he charges you and finds out that your soldiers have got some power fists ready.

Timmah wrote:You forget that hood stops everything, or can stop everything. Destructor, doom, ect. So rounding up on all his attacks you would kill 2 terminators.

Librarian gets swings (with force weapon) also. So 8 attacks. 4 hit (1 w/force weapon) Librarian attacks farseer (yay new combat rules) and swings at the same time as the initial ones I believe.

Librarian has a pretty good shot at wounding and killing said farseer. Terminators than kill 1-2 warlocks.

So now we have 4-5 warlocks against 1 librarian and 3 terminators. I personally would take the SM in that situation

Hood only has a chance to stop powers that require a psychic test. Warlock powers cannot be stopped by a hood. I also didn't take into account the librarian or farseers attacks into the equation. The librarian can only attack the farseer if the Eldar player puts the farseer into B2B with the librarian, but given Runes of Warding's chance to stop the force weapon from working, combined with fortune (honestly, if the fortune fails the Eldar player ensures the combat doesn't even take place) and the Farseer's weapon skill... eh, libby doesn't have a great chance to kill the farseer, honestly.

willydstyle wrote:

Hood only has a chance to stop powers that require a psychic test. Warlock powers cannot be stopped by a hood. I also didn't take into account the librarian or farseers attacks into the equation. The librarian can only attack the farseer if the Eldar player puts the farseer into B2B with the librarian, but given Runes of Warding's chance to stop the force weapon from working, combined with fortune (honestly, if the fortune fails the Eldar player ensures the combat doesn't even take place) and the Farseer's weapon skill... eh, libby doesn't have a great chance to kill the farseer, honestly.

Either way, just direct the entire squads attacks at the farseer. It will die. You will be in combat with 6 warlocks vs however many terminators you have plus your librarian. Either way, if you have something that can easily kill the farseer, the fight is basically over.

And again, my squad cost 300 the bikers cost 650.

Actually, I was comparing similar points costs. The guy said it's going to be a 650 point game. Against 650 points of bikers... well 200 points of TH/SS terminators are just gonna die.

Don't forget that you can only direct attacks against the farseer that are from models in B2B. Again, since the Eldar player is next-to-guaranteed to get the assault, he will get to determine who is in B2B with whom.