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Take this advice from a long time Eldar player (since the end of 2nd ed): TH/SS Termies ARE NOT the way to deal with a Jetbike council.

You would be better off with normal termies with an assault cannon or CML (so that you can shoot at them before the charge you), since the SS does you NO GOOD against a Jetbike Council. Even LC termies will do you more good than TH/SS termis, since you will get more attacks.

Yes, a Libby's hood can hurt them; however, an Inquisitor's hood is much better at the job, as it has unlimited range, so that it can have the chance to stop Fortune from further awya, and thus allow you more time to shoot them before they charge.

Find out for sure tho if hes taking an autarch. The six str6 attacks will be hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+; termies without storm shields are going to be in trouble And if the librarian isnt using a storm shield then hes dead on average going toe to toe with the autarch.

If there is no autarch then there can be a lot of warlocks. The firing stage is going to on average kill 1-2 termies depending on how many templates there are. If the termies have lighting claws then another 2-3 will die leaving only the librarian and plus perhaps one other to still strike back.

So it still looks like to me the shields are very impoartant, and its very important to take more than 5 termies.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Find out for sure tho if hes taking an autarch. The six str6 attacks will be hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+; termies without storm shields are going to be in trouble And if the librarian isnt using a storm shield then hes dead on average going toe to toe with the autarch.

If there is no autarch then there can be a lot of warlocks. The firing stage is going to on average kill 1-2 termies depending on how many templates there are. If the termies have lighting claws then another 2-3 will die leaving only the librarian and plus perhaps one other to still strike back.

So it still looks like to me the shields are very impoartant, and its very important to take more than 5 termies.


Sliggoth

Ummm...remember that it is a 650 point game we are discussing.

And please, quit recommending Libbies...Inquisitor's hoods are far better at dealing with a Jetbike council, due to range.

If he brings a jetbike council, and if he brings a kitted out autarch as well, then he will have virtually nothing else to play with. Only an idiot would try to pull all that off at such a low point level....which is what my advice is adressing - fighting a jetbike council in a 650 point game.

If he does bring such an over-the-top unit to a 650 point game, kill everything else, and just tie up the council (again, an Iquisitor hiding in a transport will ruin his day). Heck, 2/3 of the time he will need to claim objectives to win, and if he dumps that many points into HQs at 650, killing his scoring units will be a snap.

Autarchs are not points-efficient killing machines at all. They exist almost solely for the +1 to reserves rolls.

IG -
Choir + chimera to drop their mighty LD to a whole 2 (statistically I'd be inclined to go ahead and drop them to a 4 to save points) then see the suggestion above - escort them off table with the chimera.

You'd still have to kill enough of the unit to force a morale check.

And if the farseer takes runes of warding then the odds are that the Psychic choir will fail to perform.

The autarch is really only good in a jetcouncil, because he provides six str6 power weapon attacks. The council can handle high toughness units fine, and can pop armor quite well too; they do not deal well with models with 2+ saves tho.

The discussion centered around how to beat a jetcouncil in a 650 point game, so while ignoring it might work in larger games, in a 650 point game there really isnt going to be a good way to tarpit and ignore it.

As mentioned previously, two minimum DA squads could leave 530 points for the council. This means that with a farseer at 150-160 (the farseer could go lower if only fortune is taken) and an autarch at 130 there would still be 240ish points for the warlocks. Easily enough for 4 warlocks with a good selection of powers or 5 with minimal powers. Without an autarch there could be several more warlocks of course. The trick is figuring out how to deal with each flavor of council.

The eldar player wouldnt be particularly concerned with objectives since he will be intent on killing a unit a turn with the council, leading to a sweep. Altho the DA could at least in theorey take an objective if they can stay in reserve to start....or else hide away somewhere, heh.

Maybe go plain vanilla: two scout squads, a librarian and two terminator squads. Figure that one termy squad will take the charge and mostly die, but the second can then assault.


Sliggoth

Dreadnought,
Upgrade Multi-Melta to TL Heavy Flamer (it's free, even)
Upgrade Storm Bolter to Heavy Flamer
Add Drop Pod.

Comes out to 150 points.

Combining a HF and a TL HF against a jet council, you'll kill the majority of the 'locks you touch with both templates if you can stop the Fortune, and just under half if Fortune is up. With the Pod, your threat range is pretty much the entire board, and your accuracy can be excellent depending on terrain on the board. And the HFs -- by virtue of being template weapons -- prevent the jet council from getting a 3+ rerollable cover save.

Take two, buy pods with your minimized SM troop choices (so you have four pods total, and get to pick which two come in on the first turn, and which you keep in reserves). Drop the troop pods empty if it works out better, or drop a Libby in one (with the squad, of course) to get the most out of the 24" range.

If your opponent complains about dropping empty pods being cheesy, beardy, or whatnot, remind him he's playing a jet council at 650 points.

Edit: Not that this is a perfect solution, but it can put the hurt on a jet council, and at least should be reasonably unexpected. Have you ever seen a HF/TL-HF Dread before?

LOL....Please tell me that you did not seriously advise someone to bring drop-podded dreads as an answer to a Jetbike council. They will be utterly useless; there is no way that they are getting past 4+ re-rollable invuls. And, when the council assaults the silly dreads, they will carve them up like tin cans.

Heck, you might as well say Grots are a great anti-council unit as well

The jetseer council has rerollable 3+ armor saves that an AP 4 weapon is just going to have a very hard time getting past.

willydstyle wrote:The jetseer council has rerollable 3+ armor saves that an AP 4 weapon is just going to have a very hard time getting past.

Unless you've got lots of shots, which as you pointed out, isn't very efficient.

Land Raider Redeemer, ignores their armor save, ignores their cover save. Transport your HQ choice in it with some tac marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alerian wrote:LOL....Please tell me that you did not seriously advise someone to bring drop-podded dreads as an answer to a Jetbike council. They will be utterly useless; there is no way that they are getting past 4+ re-rollable invuls. And, when the council assaults the silly dreads, they will carve them up like tin cans.

Heck, you might as well say Grots are a great anti-council unit as well

90 grots would be.

Canonness Rory wrote:Land Raider Redeemer, ignores their armor save, ignores their cover save. Transport your HQ choice in it with some tac marines.

The only problem is that the Jetcouncil might include a few Witchblades, which are Str 9. You don't want a lot of Str. 9 attacks pounding on your Redeemer.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Land Raider Redeemer, ignores their armor save, ignores their cover save. Transport your HQ choice in it with some tac marines.

The only problem is that the Jetcouncil might include a few Witchblades, which are Str 9. You don't want a lot of Str. 9 attacks pounding on your Redeemer.

Nah, the redeemer's one of the better options. It can move 12" and get a bunch of armor-ignoring hits on the jetseers. Sure it might get beat up in return, but with the limited number of bikelocks that the guy is going to be able to afford hitting on 6s and penning on 6s means that it's going to be a tough fight either way.

Bikelocks are 50 points minimum, but let's assume for the sake of assumption that he brings a squad of 10. They each get 3 attacks on the charge, so 30 attacks total.

Of those 30 attacks, hitting on 6's, is 5 hits.
Of those 5 hits less than 1 will pen.

Now assuming the redeemer gets 5 hits under it's flamestorm, that is 5 wounds, and 2.5 saves. Assuming Rerolls that is 1.25 dead seers.

500+ (+Farseer w/ fortune) points vs 240 points = 1 dead seer and 1 shaken land raider.

Now considering the game will be 650 points, it is extremely unlikely that the enemy will bring a full squad of 10, making the redeemer an even better choice.

I think the redeemer is the winner.

A redeemer would certainly be very good if hes taking an autarch with the council. The autarch is hard hitting on infantry with good armor saves but even with his lance is weak against armor. The idea would be to take a librarian inside the LR to combat the psychic powers?

The largest council would likely be a farseer plus 7-8 warlocks, 7 being the more likely. If we go with 7 then the charge will only have 24 attacks, 4 hitting. Would be roughly 67% chance of a glance and 67% chance of a pen. A pen would of course be the worry, since a third of the pens will destroy and a sixth will immobilize (which on the initial charge will mean the LR will almost certainly be destroyed next turn). So we have the pen taking care of the LR a third of the time, and the glance another one sixth.

So overall the council will immobilize or destroy the LR half the time on the charge, with the odds of at least a shaken extremely high.

With only one flamestorm cannon able to fire, its not going to be easy to get many of the warlock's bases under the template...so it seems unlikely that more than one will die. Unless the LR isnt going to move at cruising speed the next turn? Moving at combat speed allows hits on 4+ so should be avoided at all cost.

So while the LR would certainly be a tough target for the council, it (plus the librarian passeneger) doesnt really seem to be the answer.



Sliggoth

Nevermind me, completely forgot about the 3+ armor save.

Sliggoth wrote:A redeemer would certainly be very good if hes taking an autarch with the council. The autarch is hard hitting on infantry with good armor saves but even with his lance is weak against armor. The idea would be to take a librarian inside the LR to combat the psychic powers?

The largest council would likely be a farseer plus 7-8 warlocks, 7 being the more likely. If we go with 7 then the charge will only have 24 attacks, 4 hitting. Would be roughly 67% chance of a glance and 67% chance of a pen. A pen would of course be the worry, since a third of the pens will destroy and a sixth will immobilize (which on the initial charge will mean the LR will almost certainly be destroyed next turn). So we have the pen taking care of the LR a third of the time, and the glance another one sixth.

So overall the council will immobilize or destroy the LR half the time on the charge, with the odds of at least a shaken extremely high.

With only one flamestorm cannon able to fire, its not going to be easy to get many of the warlock's bases under the template...so it seems unlikely that more than one will die. Unless the LR isnt going to move at cruising speed the next turn? Moving at combat speed allows hits on 4+ so should be avoided at all cost.

So while the LR would certainly be a tough target for the council, it (plus the librarian passeneger) doesnt really seem to be the answer.



Sliggoth

Tank shock makes it easier to get more jetbikes under the template.

With a minimum 130 spent on the farseer, and minimum 120 spent on troops, you're correct in that you'd be looking at 7-8 warlocks on the table... but the rest of his army would be so flimsy it might mean you can win the game even if you can't deal with the council... but given 4 turns of killin stuff... I guess it would be long odds.

How exactly are you getting in range to tank shock with your redeemer?

At 650 points if you spend 250 on a landraider, the council is going to ignore it and mop up the rest of you list. It then might come back and attack the raider.

However even a council will be a raider after a couple turns. As soon as the raider can't move 12 inches its pretty much game over.

As long as we're throwing out random tanks why not use a Vindicator or a Russ and template them to death? (Or, would the cover be a bit much?) Edit2: OH! Or a dakkapred! There's something that can throw out a bunch of shots! Throw out enough bullets from a Dakkapred and maybe a razorback and he will fail at least a few of them.

Edit: Not that the land raider was a 'random' idea, but it did kinda come out of nowhere, and if you use the LRR your basicly doing the same thing as the Eldar player, tying up points in a unit that your opponent can stall or ignore.

What would be kinda funny is taking DH allies with psycannons. They ignore invuln saves and since bike councils don't even have a normal save (i believe). Every wound is going to kill one.

Not to mention a nice 36" range and grey knights aren't too shabby in CC if they get assaulted. Ofc they will probably lose in an assault so I would keep them moving.

I think, if the seer council is small (less than 6 models), the nightbringer might be the way to go as well, because he can ignore ALL the saves in CC.

Or possibly the Warscythe on 2 Necron Lords in a squad of necrons?...

The reason to use a LR is because of the rear AV of 14, a vindi is going to have to use its rear AV of 10 so its just going to die.

The OP was asking about SM or IG, if he could bring in allies then that would open up a few things ..... if we go to entirely different armies then there are all sorts of things that might work but the OP isnt going to have any interest in the nightbringer.

The usual way to beat a jet council is to overload it in some way, which just isnt going to be doable in a 650 point game.

There doesnt look to be a sure way to stop them at 650 points but two groups of termies might be the best bet.


Sliggoth

[quote=Alerian
And please, quit recommending Libbies...Inquisitor's hoods are far better at dealing with a Jetbike council, due to range.

Having played jet bike councils for a long time there are a couple ways to do it.

First off stopping fortune and killing the farseer is the key. So some sort of psychic hood goes a long way. Also null zone can help with if you can get it off.

The other thing to cinsider is that the jet bike council does not exactly kill quickly. Tar pittings the unit and just bogging down the points is a good way to go too.

DarthDiggler wrote:
A Librarian is far superior to an Inquisitor. Experienced players know the way to beat a council is not stopping the Fortune, but getting Null Zone cast. Your Inquisitor can not do that. Once Null zone is cast set upon the council with Terminators. Remember with the psychic hood, ties go to the enemy so there is a 41.6% chance to stop Fortune with a hood, however a LD 10 Libby will cast Null Zone just under 50% of the time. I don't know the excact numbers but I do know casting Null Zone happens more often then Hooding Fortune.

The Farseer must tie or beat the Libbies role in order to get Fortune off past the hood...so the Farseer has a greater than 50% chance to cast Fortune.

However, the Libby must role less than 10 on 3d6, in order to get past the Farseer's RoW. Since the average of 3d6 is 10.5, the Libby has a less than 50% chance to cast Nullzone.

The odds are in the Farseer's favor on both counts...and the Libby has to win both roles in a single turn in order to fully effect the council.

Given the difficulty of actaully stopping a Farseer from casting and the added difficulty of casting Nullzone as well, you are better off having an unlimted range hood that can be hidden in a tranport. This gives you more chances to stop Fortune throughout the game, thus increasing your odds of killing the council. In addition, the inquisitor will not have to put himself at risk in order to effect the Farseer's casting ability. Once you actually stop Fortune, then it is just a matter of focused fire.

Libbies tend to die horribly to Councils, unless they get lucky with their roles. Trust me, I have killed enough of them.

Also, if you think that beating the council is about casting Nullzone then assaulting with Termies, you are making a huge mistake. A good Eldar player will be nowhere near Termies if Nullzone actaully gets cast....and Termies cannot catch a Jetcouncil.

Edit: Oh yeah, the Inquisitor is cheaper, so you have more points to spend...and at 650, you need all you can get.

Timmah wrote:What would be kinda funny is taking DH allies with psycannons. They ignore invuln saves and since bike councils don't even have a normal save (i believe). Every wound is going to kill one.

Not to mention a nice 36" range and grey knights aren't too shabby in CC if they get assaulted. Ofc they will probably lose in an assault so I would keep them moving.

The Eldar jet bike confers a 3+ armor save upon the model riding it. This is what makes bike councils so good.

willydstyle wrote:Autarchs are not points-efficient killing machines at all. They exist almost solely for the +1 to reserves rolls.

I disagree

Autarch w/
Laser Lance , Shuriken Pistol, Scorpion Mask 130 points

He has 3 Attacks Base +1 for Pistol and Laser Lance, +1 for Scorpion Mask, +1 for charging

6 Attacks at Str6 weapon skill 6 ini 6.

130 points is also 5 harlequins w/ kisses. That's 15 attacks base, +5 for charging.

20 attacks at WS5, init 7, str 4 with rending is way better than those 6 attacks.

Not points-efficient.