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Hey all,

New to the game, but been collecting for a while. (Year or so). Looking for ways to improve my current CSM list. Well, my current CSM collection, I should say. I have a bunch of CSM models that haven't been used in a game yet, purchased mostly based on whims or "I hear these are good and have some money". Anyway, the point is I have a bunch of units which more or less make an army, but I know from research here and on other places that certain things I have (bikes, 1k sons) are basically useless in most situations. I'm looking for advice on what I could buy to make a more effective army, both at the 1000 point and 1500 point level, as those are the most common games around here I understand.

I know that the 'default and best' CSM list is a DP with lash, PMs and lots of Oblits, but honestly that doesn't really appeal to me. I'm not a huge fan of Nurgle as a Chaos God, which kind of turns me off to PMs. I'm a big Tzeentch fan, unfortunately, since I know with the current codex, 1k Sons are too expensive to be worth it, alas. I'm only going to be playing friendly games, and am looking for something a bit more interesting which might not win ALL the time but still has a decent chance of winning games.

What I have so far is:

1 Chaos Sorcerer
2 squads of 10 Chaos Space Marines
1 Squad of 8 1k Sons + Aspiring Sorcerer
2 Rhinos
3 Chaos Bikers
5 Chaos Terminators
1 Defiler
2 Obliterators

What are some decent choices I could use to forge this into a decent fighting force? I'm particularly interested in tanks: I like them, and picking up a Predator, Vindicator, Land Raider, or some combination thereof would be cool I think, although I'm aware that any or all of those in a 1000 or even a 1500 point list would be a bit hard to pull off.

Anyway, any ideas anybody could throw my way about additions/configs of this force would be greatly appreciated!

Exaar wrote:
What I have so far is:

1 Chaos Sorcerer
2 squads of 10 Chaos Space Marines
1 Squad of 8 1k Sons + Aspiring Sorcerer
2 Rhinos
3 Chaos Bikers
5 Chaos Terminators
1 Defiler
2 Obliterators

What are some decent choices I could use to forge this into a decent fighting force? I'm particularly interested in tanks: I like them, and picking up a Predator, Vindicator, Land Raider, or some combination thereof would be cool I think, although I'm aware that any or all of those in a 1000 or even a 1500 point list would be a bit hard to pull off.

Anyway, any ideas anybody could throw my way about additions/configs of this force would be greatly appreciated!

Things that immediately jump out to me: Look long and hard at a Chaos Lord, Daemon Prince, or even Ahriman himself. Sorcerors are ok, but one of Chaos's strengths is bad HQ choices. If you like tanks, you can definetly work in the Defiler and a Land Raider at 1500. Maybe not 1000 but definetly 1500. The Land Raider is something I would recommend for you as a transport for either the Terminators or the 1k sons. That frees up your Rhinos to cart your regular Marines too.

As for a list:
Sorceror Lord with MoT, Warp Time, Doom Bolt and Terminator Armor 180pts
4 Terminators with 4x Combi Weapons and 2x Chain Fists 160pts
Landraider with Daemonic Possession 240pts
8 1k Sons & Sorceror with Doombolt and Personal Icon 259pts
Defiler with 2 Extra CC Weapons 150pts
10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Power Fist and Rhino 255pts
10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Power Fist and Rhino 255pts

That checks in at 1499. You can fiddle with the options however you like, but the basic idea is that the sorceror joins the Terminators. They can Deep Strike or hop in the Land Raider. If you Deep Strike them, the 1k Sons hop in the Land Raider.
Another option is to change one of the CSM squads to have a Lascannon. You can give the 1k Sons the spare Rhino, and cart the Terms in the Land Raider. If you do that, you'll save a few points by removing the Personal Icon from the 1k Sons Sorceror.

That should at least give you a starting point. I can't encourage you enough to play some games! That's the best way to find out what works, what doesn't, what you like and what you don't. I wish you much success.

It sucks that Tzeentch is a useless option. Have you ever considered a sub legion? If you like Tanks, maybe you should consider Iron Warriors.

Otherwise you sound just like I was. I started collecting back in the old codex 7 years ago, and bought things with Tzeentch in mind (ahriman for example). I switched over to Night Lords as they appealed to me, being intelligent, swift, feared and professional in their killing.

You dont have to have a lash prince. He can have something else and not be cheesy. As for the rest of the units, its up to you. I can definitely help you out if you have a playstyle in mind. Like for example, I like having quick, mobile units (in my list, 2 dreadnoughts are the only unit that dont move 12"). I also like having a lot of good, versatile units running up the field, while I have very specific Heavy Support choices sitting back and performing their job.

Hey guys,

Thanks for the input, it's interesting. I should probably mention that everything I have so far is already assembled and painted, by me and my girlfriend (she's an artist, so the ones she did tend to look a lot better than mine ) over the past year. It's a pretty neat color scheme, kind of Black Legion meets Thousand Sons. Black base with the gauntlets, greaves, and shoulderpads painted dark blue, and the trim all bright gold. Looks really good on the Defiler and Terminators especially. I just mention this because it's a bit late to choose a sub-cult now. I'm happy with the paintjob, anyway.

One thing is though, when I was initially researching before I assembled my marines, more than a year ago now, 5th ed had JUST hit and people hadn't really adjusted yet. I know right now the prevailing wisdom is to have 2x Meltas in pretty much all basic infantry squads to deal with all the vehicles that 5th ed lists tend to have, but at the time I was assembling it wasn't necessarily so: as a result, my two CSM squads each have 1x Plasma Gun and 1x Heavy Bolter. My question to you is, is that functional enough, or should I really pick up another box of CSMs and put together a couple guys with Meltas? Doing so wouldn't be an obstacle, but it's not something I want to rush out and do if what I have now will work for the time being.

Another question: speaking of Chaos Terminator Sorcerer Lords, as DJ suggested. There's this awesome picture in both the CSM Codex and the 5th ed core book of a Chaos Terminator Sorcere Lord. He's got like Termie armor, big spires on his helmet, and a huge staff. He looks amazingly awesome. I was just looking through the GW website, and I don't see that actual model anywhere. Is that a conversion, or does one of the Termie lord blister packs come with that staff as an option? What I have now is just a plain old Chaos Sorcerer, not a Termie one.

I know I should play, and plan to do so. I actually have someone set up, a friend of mine whose been playing for years, to play a few games with me probably next week. Due to when I get paid, I won't be buying anything new till after then anyway, so maybe that wll give me some fresh input as well. Even so, I appreciate the comments here. I might look into picking up a Land Raider when I get paid...

Exaar wrote:
One thing is though, when I was initially researching before I assembled my marines, more than a year ago now, 5th ed had JUST hit and people hadn't really adjusted yet. I know right now the prevailing wisdom is to have 2x Meltas in pretty much all basic infantry squads to deal with all the vehicles that 5th ed lists tend to have, but at the time I was assembling it wasn't necessarily so: as a result, my two CSM squads each have 1x Plasma Gun and 1x Heavy Bolter. My question to you is, is that functional enough, or should I really pick up another box of CSMs and put together a couple guys with Meltas? Doing so wouldn't be an obstacle, but it's not something I want to rush out and do if what I have now will work for the time being.

A squad like that is ok but not ideal. It is a good idea to pick up another box because they come with enough spare parts for you to do lots of things with them.

Exaar wrote:
Another question: speaking of Chaos Terminator Sorcerer Lords, as DJ suggested. There's this awesome picture in both the CSM Codex and the 5th ed core book of a Chaos Terminator Sorcere Lord. He's got like Termie armor, big spires on his helmet, and a huge staff. He looks amazingly awesome. I was just looking through the GW website, and I don't see that actual model anywhere. Is that a conversion, or does one of the Termie lord blister packs come with that staff as an option? What I have now is just a plain old Chaos Sorcerer, not a Termie one.

The plastic terminator lord comes with loads of different pieces, including the spired helmet and staff that you can use to make a sorcerer. Its a really really nice kit that also leaves you with lots of spare gubbins.

First bit of advice: ignore the old legions. The fluff mongers hate anyone saying this, but your current Codex should have been caled "Codex: Black Legion" because that's what it was made to represent. By limiting what you take, you only gimp yourself and get nothing (gameplay-wise) in return. That being said, check out the article in my sig and the discussion page for it to get a fair amount of varying viewpoints. On to the list...

1 Chaos Sorcerer - 130
Wind of Chaos, Pick a mark if you want one

10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Power Fist and Rhino 255pts

10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Power Fist and Rhino 255pts

If you want to mod those slightly and have a few points, give the champa combi-melta and the Rhinos an extra TL bolter or 5 points. The little bit of fire power is super effective vs. hordes and it gives another destruction result that can save your Rhino from being wrecked. You can also go Slaanesh on one squad with flamers instead (that way you don't have to get extra bits) and you have a good little up-close unit. Really, the more meltas the better, though.

1 Squad of 8 1k Sons + Aspiring Sorcerer (with Wind of Chaos), and Rhino - 286

This one squad can do it's job well, just fit them to be anti-infantry and find a good use. My article will shed some light. Ons fearless squad can really help, and they're not bad at camping on objectives that are close to the middle of the board.

1 Defiler - 150

2 Obliterators - 150

1226

24 Pts. for upgrades to make a 1250 list, and all I added was one more Rhino. I'd try out a Greater Daemon too, and the Lord of Change is a pretty nifty model Should be easy to scale this up or down to 1000 or 1500 by picking and removing one thing. Attach the Sorc to the Sons and have some fun slaughtering whatever comes your way. Throw some more heavy hitters in there when going bigger (Termi squad will work fine, and some big daemons) but keep you basic infantry count up in the process.

Well you dont need to buy another two boxs of CSM's. Just get one more stick two melta's in the squad and shelf the CSM with plasmaguns and heavy bolters.

So this 1.5k:

HQ

Sorceror Lord with MoT, Warp Time, Doom Bolt and Terminator Armor 180pts

Elites

4x Termies with 4x combi-melta's, 1x chainfist 145pts
4x Termies with 4x combi-melta's, 1x chainfist 145pts
LR 240pts

Troops

CSM squad, champ, powerfist, 2x melta, Rhino 245pts
CSM squad, champ, powerfist, 2x melta, Rhino 245pts

Heavy Support

LR 225pts
Defiler 150pts
Defiler 150pts

Total: 1510pts
Tanks? 6 tanks, two hard hitting units and some good MEQ killers with STR 10 CC weapons. Two scoring units with the potentional to blow up tanks and hurt MC. Its mobile and its got as many tanks as i could fit in Its more iron warrior then Tzeench but just paint it Tzeench

Yup your not going to do much better than that proposed list.

Some thoughts though.

I think the land raider is useless in this list unless you build around it. Consider a unit of CSMs or K sons inside the LR and give them an icon. This lets you summon the temies in without scattering. Also you can take the oblits instead of the defiler and they can teleport off the icon in the tank.

Also the warp time sorcerer is great but it your not going lash just get Abbadon. He's one of the best characters in the game and rocks.

That build also removes a KP and you can save the points of a rhino.

I assume you're talking about that last list, deFL0? So you would suggest basically attaching the Land Raider to another infantry squad and taking the two Oblits instead of a second Defiler. Would change the points around though (although the two Oblits = one Defiler). Speaking of, can you have a 1510 army in a 1500 point game? I thought you couldn't go over.

And I know Abaddon is good.. but frankly I like the Terminator Lord model a lot better than the Abaddon one!

Thanks for all the responses guys, has given me a lot of food for thought, at the least. I'll probably pick up another box of CSMs. I only need one because I still have all the unused Meltas from my other two boxes, so I can just stick those on some of the new CSMs to get four of them, I think. How many does the box come with, one or two?

After that, I may go for a Land Raider.... I do like the look of that second list, although it will take me a bit to scrape togethe enough funds for two Land Raiders and another box of Termies.

Exaar you gotta realy ask your enemy before fielding a 1510pts in 1.5k. But you could take a combi-melta outa each squad and that would bring it down to 1500pts and there are loads of websites on the internet to get 20%-30% off.

Okay guys.. really appreciate all your help. My first game is coming up this week, and I know for a fact it (and indeed my first couple) are probably going to be 1000 points. I won't be able to get any major new models between now and then, but assume I will have the Meltas for my CSM squads. That being the case, what do you think of a list something like this:

Sorceror Lord with MoT, Warp Time, Doom Bolt and Terminator Armor 180pts

10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Power Fist and Rhino 255pts

10 Chaos Space Marines with Icon of Chaos Glory 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Power Fist and Rhino 255pts

1 Defiler - 150

2 Obliterators - 150

Total = 990

This is just for a friendly game against a friend who knows I'm a newbie and is planning to teach me the ropes. He is going to be playing Orks.

That being the case, might I be smarter to switch out the Defiler for some termies, give one a Heavy Flamer?

Looks good, but i would drop the defiler and take a squad of terminators instead. Thats a personal choice and the list will probaly run better like this though.

your list looks ok, but I'd seriously suggest against running the sorc solo. He'll get annihilated early unless you hide him, but even then, they will wait for him to poke his head out before one shotting em with a missile launcher or somethin.

I suggest running your termis. As for buying stuff Demon Princes are great in almost any configuration, Land Raiders are beast (which is what landraiders do), rhinos are a must o' course, Defilers are fun, Vindicators are great in certain armys. Its all about what you like! I love Khorne and Nurgle, and splash a little Slanesh for cheesy fun (the reason I started playing chaos was lash whip cuz its stupid fun lol)

Exaar wrote:This is just for a friendly game against a friend who knows I'm a newbie and is planning to teach me the ropes. He is going to be playing Orks.

That being the case, might I be smarter to switch out the Defiler for some termies, give one a Heavy Flamer?

I don't know if it is the 'friendly game' portion that is making everyone tell you to take Terminators, but Defilers are incredible vs. Orks. My best friend plays Orks and I will quote him here 'Defilers make my pants fit funny.'

The battlecannon is great vs. the green tide. Your Defiler comes with a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer (better than the Terminator one as you reroll to wound) and an autocannon for popping trucks. You can trade the autocannon for another Attack if you'd like. Once you get in to assault, that nob with powerclaw better squish your defiler (needs 3's to hit you and 3's to glance you) because if he doesn't you'll murder his friends and make them run away. Terminators are ok vs Orks, but the nob's boys will have a chance to lay down 25+ attacks that could actually damage your Terms where the Defiler is basically immune to them.

I agree with another poster that a lone sorceror is just begging to be killed. Perhaps he joins the Obliterators and they deepstrike? The Icons on your troops are teleport homers, so you won't scatter if you appear near the rhinos. You can then unleash a world of hurt with twin-linked flamers and doombolt. If they get charged, well your Sorceror goes first and since he's Tzeentch you'd get to use the Force Weapon if you fight his HQ or a Nob (though he shouldn't allocate the Sorceror's wounds to the Nob in the first place). You still have Oblit power fists and wounds to back you up too.

Thanks for the great advice everyone.

I had forgotten the Defiler comes with the twin-linked heavy flamer. It's been a while since I actually broke out the codex and looked at exactly what they come with. In that case, I could certainly see it being of good use against Orks. Mine has the Autocannon and one CCW, I believe, the way its modeled. In a 1000 point game where it's one or the other, I can see where the Defiler might win out in this case.

Can I attach the Sorcerer to the Oblits as part of their unit? I'll have to refresh myself on the independent character rules. I certainly see the benefit of linking him up with someone to keep him alive long enough to use his powers.

Thanks again for the advice. I'll let you guys know how the game turns out. (Although I expect to lose in any case since it will be my first game and this particular friend has been playing for like 15 years. But hopefully I'll put up a decent fight.)

Exaar wrote:Thanks for the great advice everyone.

I had forgotten the Defiler comes with the twin-linked heavy flamer. It's been a while since I actually broke out the codex and looked at exactly what they come with. In that case, I could certainly see it being of good use against Orks. Mine has the Autocannon and one CCW, I believe, the way its modeled. In a 1000 point game where it's one or the other, I can see where the Defiler might win out in this case.

Can I attach the Sorcerer to the Oblits as part of their unit? I'll have to refresh myself on the independent character rules. I certainly see the benefit of linking him up with someone to keep him alive long enough to use his powers.

Thanks again for the advice. I'll let you guys know how the game turns out. (Although I expect to lose in any case since it will be my first game and this particular friend has been playing for like 15 years. But hopefully I'll put up a decent fight.)

Yes you can joint the IC to the Oblits. He can even join them if they are both in reserves and then deepstrike as one unit. I don't think this was the case in 4th edition. IIRC. Good luck.