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I have been trying to find rules on model conversions in regards to what can and cant be used in tournaments.

First off, I know using resin-cast models is illegal. I have even heard that GW tourney administrators will confiscate and destroy resin cast minis.

For a conversion, can I use substances/bits that aren't GW or Citadel products? IE, as a hypothetical, could I use a combat knife from a GI Joe for a power sword?
(Just an off the cuff example)

How much of my mini must come from original GW minis? Could someone (if they were good enough) sculpt an entire upper body from Green Stuff using just the legs from an original model?

How much conversion is require before something becomes acceptable to sub in as something else? If I paint imperial laurels around the helmets of some tactical marines, and paint the armor up a little differently, can I use them as Sternguard vets (in a tournament)?

Can I use bits from other GW games for my minis?

As I stated in one of my previous questions, I dont want to do a whole bunch of work on a conversion only to discover I cant even play with the thing in sanctioned venues.

I've never seen anything official on this, but the rule I've always heard and my local group has followed was that for GW sanctioned events, conversions were generally required to contain at least 50% GW parts.

It will depend on the tournament, but few bits will rarely dq you. P. 225 of the rulebook has a "scratchbuilt" deffkopta that looks nothing like one, which leads me to believe that if it's gw bitz and looks right with good dimensions on the same base, you're fine.

Only because I'm not familiar with resin cast models, once painted, how would officials know that the model was resin? I wouldnt even begin to know how to do that, but I'm just curious.

Clarity is key in your conversions, so no, a coat of paint might not be enough (if it's just a paint job, then it's not really a conversion, anyway), but adding loads of purity seals and banners etc. could be.

The rest is really up to the event organisers. You can't go wrong if you follow these rules of thumb:

Your model must be mostly GW parts or scratchbuilt. Generally this is only to limit the amount of third-party models used. While this strictly means 51% must be GW, practically it just allows you to embellish your models with parts from other companies (e.g. Pig Iron head swaps for IG). A good guideline is if the judge can recognise your addition as coming from another game, it could be rejected.

Yes you may entirely scratch-build models if you desire, and is often encouraged.

If you don't want your sportsmanship scores to suffer, make sure any scratchbuilds or conversions are at least roughly the same dimensions as GW's originals.

IIRC the ruling on not using LOTR models in conversions outside the LOTR range still stands, but all other GW models are fair game

They have a different feel to them. We have a player around here who plays 'nids and resin casts almost all of his models. They feel more solid, and far heavier than plastic. It's hard to describe, but they feel differently in your hand.

I know a few veteran modeler who can spot one (fully painted) without even touching it. And we are just gamers in BFE. I imagine some of these GW dudes who do this stuff professionally can tell them apart even more reliably.


The full rumor that I heard about that is that if you have an army with even a single model cast entirely out of resin, and GW tourney organizers prove it, they will confiscate your army and destroy it.

No idea if its true.

s2ua7 wrote:Only because I'm not familiar with resin cast models, once painted, how would officials know that the model was resin? I wouldnt even begin to know how to do that, but I'm just curious.

Several ways - an amateurley copied piece is usually pretty obvious - the details are often not as crisp, the mould lines are in the wrong place (or there are more than one set of mould lines), there could be air-bubbles, and so-on. If an entire model was resin cast, it is probably lighter than a plastic model as well. Also, resin just 'feels' different, it's harder and more brittle than, for example GW's styrene. Anyone with enough experience can tell the two apart if they're allowed to handle them.

For individual components, it's a lot harder, and generally relies on purely visual clues.

EDIT @Jimsolo: Do you know what kind of resin he uses? - my experience (admittedly limited) of modeling-quality resin is that it's lighter to produce more detailed castings.

The rules were posted in an old 'Ard Boyz PDF at one time, maybe someone has a copy they can dig out. IIRC it was 40% GW/Citadel Parts and no LoTR.

IIRC the ruling on not using LOTR models in conversions outside the LOTR range still stands, but all other GW models are fair game

That is mostly correct. In th deal GW struck with Newline Cinema part of the agreement was no crossing over with other GW products. I have seen Daemon Princes with Baalrog wings DQ from GW sponsored events on account of this.


As for the second part it should read:

but all other GW/Citadel models are fair game. (this makes a big difference for old fogies and collectors )

I doubt they have the authority to enforce that. It's your property. Sounds like a stupid story.

jimsolo wrote:
The full rumor that I heard about that is that if you have an army with even a single model cast entirely out of resin, and GW tourney organizers prove it, they will confiscate your army and destroy it.

No idea if its true.

I can't imagine that it would be true - GW has no legal right to take or destroy your property.

That said, nothing is stopping GW from photographing the evidence, turning it over to their legal department & suing you into bankruptcy.

Clthomps wrote:As for the second part it should read:

but all other GW/Citadel models are fair game. (this makes a big difference for old fogies and collectors )

I do know what you mean (heck, I remember Marauder miniatures myself!), though while no longer a separate company, aren't all GW's miniatures still 'Citadel'?

EDIT: Spellin's

jimsolo wrote:First off, I know using resin-cast models is illegal. I have even heard that GW tourney administrators will confiscate and destroy resin cast minis.

Where did you hear that nonsense? Now they may or may not permit Forgeworld, but regardless, if they attempt to "confiscate or destroy" your property you have the fully panopoly of rights under statutory and common law to prevent that CRIMINAL trespass.

Frazzled wrote:

jimsolo wrote:First off, I know using resin-cast models is illegal. I have even heard that GW tourney administrators will confiscate and destroy resin cast minis.

Where did you hear that nonsense? Now they may or may not permit Forgeworld, but regardless, if they attempt to "confiscate or destroy" your property you have the fully panopoly of rights under statutory and common law to prevent that CRIMINAL trespass.

Fun fact: one of the perq's to winning a counterfeiting case is the right to destroy the counterfeit materials. I've heard interesting stories of steamrollers & counterfeit DVDs.

However, that's at the end of an extremely long and expensive legal proceeding. No one should be touching your models, much less taking them. (But don't counterfeit.)

As I said, I had no idea if it was true or not. And I heard it tossed about the back room of my flgs. I told the guy who said it that any tourney rep who wanted to confiscate MY models would have them taken back post-mortem. (This stuff is worth alot of money!) To be honest, I think that my Space Marine army (once you figure in the paint, time, consumable supplies used) are probably the most valuable thing I own...yeah, thats definitely true.

Janthkin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

jimsolo wrote:First off, I know using resin-cast models is illegal. I have even heard that GW tourney administrators will confiscate and destroy resin cast minis.

Where did you hear that nonsense? Now they may or may not permit Forgeworld, but regardless, if they attempt to "confiscate or destroy" your property you have the fully panopoly of rights under statutory and common law to prevent that CRIMINAL trespass.

Fun fact: one of the perq's to winning a counterfeiting case is the right to destroy the counterfeit materials. I've heard interesting stories of steamrollers & counterfeit DVDs.

However, that's at the end of an extremely long and expensive legal proceeding. No one should be touching your models, much less taking them. (But don't counterfeit.)

Funfact. Touching my property without my permission is trespass. Touching me puts me in imminent fear for my life.

I react accordingly.

I doubt they could confiscate them on the spot - though if given sufficient cause (i.e. a need to prosecute rather than just disqualification or banning) and due legal proceedings they could certainly have them seized (and if you destroyed them in the meantime, that would count against you as well).

EDIT: @Frazzled - unfortunatley, unless they actually threaten you with physical harm, using physical force in 'self defense' probably won't stand up. It's unlikely that a GW TO is going to come at you with a knife - unless he grabs a spare x-acto

unistoo wrote:I doubt they could confiscate them on the spot - though if given sufficient cause (i.e. a need to prosecute rather than just disqualification or banning) and due legal proceedings they could certainly have them seized (and if you destroyed them in the meantime, that would count against you as well).

Try it. Its my property. They are not the police. Thats illegal. They tuch my stuff I pick up my stuff and leave. They touch me thats assault. You really don't want to try that.

Wait WTF are we talking about here? They aren't going to seize your FW minis or Tamiya tiger tank. Is there something else here?

Frazzled wrote:

unistoo wrote:I doubt they could confiscate them on the spot - though if given sufficient cause (i.e. a need to prosecute rather than just disqualification or banning) and due legal proceedings they could certainly have them seized (and if you destroyed them in the meantime, that would count against you as well).

Try it. Its my property. They are not the police. Thats illegal. They tuch my stuff I pick up my stuff and leave. They touch me thats assault. You really don't want to try that.

Wait WTF are we talking about here. They aren't going to seize your FW minis or Tamiya tiger tank. Is there something else here?

Talking about duplicated minis and copyright - they are most certainly within their rights to seek legal counsel and have the police seize your models (which is what I was referring to in the above, btw) if they have reason to believe that you are impacting their business.

Casting is a waste of money. I did it for a few years but with the release of the plastic Baneblade, Defense line, and Valkyrie, it is sooooo not worth the time, effort and headaches.

GW will eventually make everything in relatively affordable plastics. Just work a few more hours at work and buy the Forge World models. It may take six months to get to you but you can finish your other armies in the meantime. BIG WASTE of time to cast.

unistoo wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

unistoo wrote:I doubt they could confiscate them on the spot - though if given sufficient cause (i.e. a need to prosecute rather than just disqualification or banning) and due legal proceedings they could certainly have them seized (and if you destroyed them in the meantime, that would count against you as well).

Try it. Its my property. They are not the police. Thats illegal. They tuch my stuff I pick up my stuff and leave. They touch me thats assault. You really don't want to try that.

Wait WTF are we talking about here. They aren't going to seize your FW minis or Tamiya tiger tank. Is there something else here?

Talking about duplicated minis and copyright - they are most certainly within their rights to seek legal counsel and have the police seize your models etc. if they have reason to believe that you are impacting their business.

1. Ahhhh... you mean minis you copied from GW minis? OK. Thats wrong and stupid to take to a tourney.
2. having said that in the real world (TM-Games Workshop Copyright: 1993) the only way they could do that is call the police and attempt to convince them of illegal goods-good luck with that. No cop is going to show up, so its a moot point. more importantly no cop is gong to show up in the time it would take for you to pack up and leave.

Not the only way - if they decide that you are a big enough threat to business (for example your whole army was duplicated, and you were both dumb enough to bring it to a tourney and admit that you sold the copies or something and they don't mind taking the inevitable PR backlash), then they could decide to prosecute - same as any other copyright infringement, they could get a court to issue a search warrant to the police and so on... you know how that kind of thing goes. Obviously a long and expensive process, however you'd probably just be DQ'd and banned from all sanctioned events.

So, likely? heck no - possible? yes.

unistoo wrote:Not the only way - if they decide that you are a big enough threat to business (for example your whole army was duplicated, and you were both dumb enough to bring it to a tourney and admit that you sold the copies or something and they don't mind taking the inevitable PR backlash), then they could decide to prosecute - same as any other copyright infringement, they could get a court to issue a search warrant to the police and so on... you know how that kind of thing goes. Obviously a long and expensive process, however you'd probably just be DQ'd and banned from all sanctioned events.

So, likely? heck no - possible? yes.

Possible? not in the real world.

Frazzled wrote:

unistoo wrote:Not the only way - if they decide that you are a big enough threat to business (for example your whole army was duplicated, and you were both dumb enough to bring it to a tourney and admit that you sold the copies or something and they don't mind taking the inevitable PR backlash), then they could decide to prosecute - same as any other copyright infringement, they could get a court to issue a search warrant to the police and so on... you know how that kind of thing goes. Obviously a long and expensive process, however you'd probably just be DQ'd and banned from all sanctioned events.

So, likely? heck no - possible? yes.

Possible? not in the real world.

I don't know - have you seen the handiwork of GW's all-star legal team?

I haven't. how bad is it?

jimsolo wrote:I haven't. how bad is it?

That was meant to be a funny
They haven't endeared themselves to the Dakka population, ask about Vassal 40k* or the Damnatus Incident**
Undoubtedly legally secure decisions but not popular ones!

*Shut down the main host for the 40k files that allowed you to use Vassal to play games of 40k online

**Refused to release a German fan film based on 40k

EDIT: added explanations. And spelling.

Another factor to consider-are these bonafide GW tourneys or independent? Independents are not going to care about conversions, other company figures etc. I personally prefer independent tourneys myself (translation I've only been to one actual GW run tourney and it sucked so bad I haven't done a GW tourney again and nearly put me off the game) .

Frazzled wrote:Another factor to consider-are these bonafide GW tourneys or independent? Independents are not going to care about conversions, other company figures etc. I personally prefer independent tourneys myself (translation I've only been to one actual GW run tourney and it sucked so bad I haven't done a GW tourney again and nearly put me off the game) .

It's really only GW events (or events sponsored by them) that these rules apply. Though some independents do care as well, especially if they're sponsored by the LGS that deals in only GW product.

There are FLGS that only deal in GW items? Where?

Frazzled wrote:There are FLGS that only deal in GW items? Where?

Munich had one. One store for GW stuff and its neighbor selling non-GW tabletop and roleplay stuff.
Both stores had the same owner, but seperate entrances and rooms.

1hadhq wrote:

Frazzled wrote:There are FLGS that only deal in GW items? Where?

Munich had one. One store for GW stuff and its neighbor selling non-GW tabletop and roleplay stuff.
Both stores had the same owner, but seperate entrances and rooms.

Interesting that. Learn something new every day. When did GW open a store near it?