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G'day All, it's Old Sledgeaxe.

I was just wondering about the Necron We'll BE BAck special rule and just how it works.

My friend's brother recently started Necrons and i am unaware of how the roll works. The interpretations i believe are the following;

Models killed by a power weapon/ fist and instant death, close combat and ranged, do not get a WBB save whatsoever.

Once a model has failed its WBB save, it doesnt get it again

and, Does sthe resurrection Orb always allow a WBB save, no matter what.

Please tell me exactly how WBB works as i questioned his interpretations and his NEcrons dominated, forever standing back up, after i obliterated them with STR 10 Ap 1 shots.

Cheers, Old Sledgeaxe

Chuck NOrris drinks Napalm to quench his heartburn

Old Sledgeaxe wrote:My friend's brother recently started Necrons and i am unaware of how the roll works. The interpretations i believe are the following;

Models killed by a power weapon/ fist and instant death, close combat and ranged, do not get a WBB save whatsoever.

Once a model has failed its WBB save, it doesnt get it again

and, Does sthe resurrection Orb always allow a WBB save, no matter what.

1. They do not get WBB rolls. unless a ressurection orb is within 6".

2. No, failed WBB rolls remove the models. The only exception is if the unit the downed necrons is a part of is teleported through a monolith, which grants a reroll.

3. Always, unless there is no surviving unit of the same type of model within 6". (ie no Necron Warriors within 6" of a downed Warrior)

Some other odd things you should know.

If there is no model within 6 inches at the start of the turn this means they cannot attempt there WBB rolls. this does not mean you remove the model. it stays on the table and may make a WBB role on the next turn there is a like model within 6 inches.

IF there is a tomb spider within 12 inches of a necron tyring to make a WBB roll they are allowed to make it if there is a like model anywhere on the board.

mrdabba wrote:

If there is no model within 6 inches at the start of the turn this means they cannot attempt there WBB rolls. this does not mean you remove the model. it stays on the table and may make a WBB role on the next turn there is a like model within 6 inches.

Wrong.

Necron Faq wrote:Q. When do you remove Necrons that fail their
WBB roll?
A. Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move.

Lordhat wrote:

mrdabba wrote:

If there is no model within 6 inches at the start of the turn this means they cannot attempt there WBB rolls. this does not mean you remove the model. it stays on the table and may make a WBB role on the next turn there is a like model within 6 inches.

Wrong.

Necron Faq wrote:Q. When do you remove Necrons that fail their
WBB roll?
A. Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move.

you misunderstand. I am not wrong. if a model is down and there is no model within 6 inches you may not attempt a WBB roll. how can I fail a WBB roll I never made? models stay on the table and may attemp a WBB roll next turn if they are within 6 inches. If and when they actually make a roll and fail is when they are removed from the table. not anytime before.

Codex: Necrons Second printing, pg 13 wrote:
A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save or any weapon whose Strength is twice the toughness of the Necron concerned. This can be over-ridden by the Resurrection Orb (see the Necron Armoury). Additionally, the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, although not Necessarily of the same unit.

Here, we see that Necrons outside 6" of a like model are treated the same as Necrons who are subjected to ID, or a wound from a PW. Do you also suggest that these two categories just sit around on the table until something (specifically a res-orb) allows them to attempt WBB? Nothing in the rules says to remove them either, since they also do not get to attempt a WBB.

That is, until you look at the FAQ:

Necrons Faq wrote:
Q. Do Necrons destroyed in close combat by any
attack that cancels armour saves count as being
destroyed with power weapons?
A. Yes, and therefore they cannot make a WBB
roll. This is also the case with rending claws,
Sisters of Battle rolling a 6 for the ‘divine
guidance’ Act of Faith (although divine guidance
used in the Shooting phase has no effect upon
WBB) and so on.

Here we get confirmation that CC weapons which ignore Armour saves do indeed necessitate a Resurrection Orb to attempt WBB.

Necrons Faq wrote:
Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb
checked? At the time the Necron becomes
damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is
rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board.
Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table
as a casualty.

Here we see that Necrons that are ineligible for WBB are removed as soon as ineligibility is determined.

Necrons Faq wrote:
Q. If a unit of Necrons falls back after taking
casualties, how best to keep track of whether
they are effected by a resurrection orb or not?
A. A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in
close combat by a unit with power weapons.
However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To
keep things simple, when the casualties are
suffered, assess whether they are in range of the
resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and
move them with the unit. If they are not in range
of the resurrection orb, remove them entirely.
You will then know how many WBB rolls to make
at the start of your next turn. The same logic
applies if the Necrons fall back after taking
shooting casualties.

Once again, As soon as the rules call for you to determine WBB eligibility, they also require you to remove Necron models which fail to meet the prescribed conditions.
It is clear from these examples that Necrons that are determined to be ineligible to receive WBB rolls (for whatever reason) are are counted has having failed their WBB and are removed immediately, not left hanging around waiting for conditions to be met.

Only thing you have proven is that necrons that are killed by double str or weapons in CC and are not within 6 inches of a res orb get removed.

This tells me that with those conditions in mind double str/weapons with no saves in CC and outside of res orb....models never do not get WBB rolls and are removed.

I still stand by models killed otherwise stay on the table until they meet the requirements for WBB or fail a WBB roll.

Codex: Necrons Second printing, pg 13 wrote:
A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save or any weapon whose Strength is twice the toughness of the Necron concerned. This can be over-ridden by the Resurrection Orb (see the Necron Armoury). Additionally, the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, although not Necessarily of the same unit.



Here, we see that Necrons outside 6" of a like model are treated the same as Necrons who are subjected to ID, or a wound from a PW. Do you also suggest that these two categories just sit around on the table until something (specifically a res-orb) allows them to attempt WBB? Nothing in the rules says to remove them either, since they also do not get to attempt a WBB.

Here we see that necrons killed by double str or a wound from a power weapon are not eligable for WBB rolls unless they are within 6 inches of res orb. It also goes on to say that the self repair only works if a normally wounded necron is within 6 inches of another model. I see nowhere that it says they become ineligible for self repair rolls only that they may not attempt a self repair.

so to make a point it does not show that models killed by double str or PW wounds is the same as models that are killed normally. the rest of your argument hinges on this...so its all falls apart.

I hate the WBB rule so much.

1. You always get the WBB rule unless A:said modle was killed via a power weapon in close combat, destroyed by a weapon woth double the strength to the modles toughness i.e. instant death. B: there are no other non-incapacitated modles of the same type or a tombspider.

A Res Orb will negate all resons under A
A monolith allows you to re-role all WBB roles by bringing them into the monolith it- after taking your well be back roles you say that you going to move that entire unit into the monolith (to do so at least one modle must be within 12 inches of the monolith)

Nataku135 wrote:1. You always get the WBB rule unless A:said modle was killed via a power weapon in close combat, destroyed by a weapon woth double the strength to the modles toughness i.e. instant death. B: there are no other non-incapacitated modles of the same type or a tombspider.

A Res Orb will negate all resons under A
A monolith allows you to re-role all WBB roles by bringing them into the monolith it- after taking your well be back roles you say that you going to move that entire unit into the monolith (to do so at least one modle must be within 12 inches of the monolith)

the unit must be within 18" of the Monolith.

If a unit that is in combat and 7/10 models get killed, then the unit gets sweeped, the models that were already dead get a wbb roll if there is a like unit within 6'' or a tomb spyder within 12'' and a like unit somewhere on the board. (the models already dead are ignored for all purposes, so the models that are already down, dont get swept)

An arguement can be made that necrons wbb after a sweep because the wbb rule applys to anything that is reduced to 0 wounds or would otherwise be removed as a casualty. The sweeping advance says, nothing can save them unless a rule specifies. The debate is whether or not the wbb rule specifies enough. theres nothing in the FAQ about this i believe. Most people play (including me) that swept necrons cant stand up.

Also, you can never make a wbb roll against death or glory, even with an orb. Besides this the orb grants wbb to everything. A lord that is knocked down doesnt grant resurection orb powers (his model is ignored for all purposes).

Actually, WD40, according to the faq (I believe) they are still considered to be in the same unit as the one that was swept, so as such the already downed necrons are swept as well.

EDIT:Okay, actually it's not in the faq....

If the downed models did not belong to the unit, they would not get teleported with it when using the Monolith's Power Matrix, nor would they be moved with the unit if it falls back (FAQ); They are removed along with the unit if it is swept.

Thanx everyone, but my opponent still believes that if you "down" a necron and that necron fails its wbb roll it stays on the board until next turn. Then it can roll again for the wbb roll.

I disagree with this as that means that they never actually die. he hasnt got a monolith yet, thank god, so i want to make sure he understands how it works.

So what i have gathered from this is,

1. models that are killed in cc with a power weapon or a weapon (ranged or cc) thats double str, makes that model have no WBB unless there is a res orb within 6"

2. Once a model fails its WBB roll it is removed from the table, permantly, even if theres a monolith, tomb spider etc.

3. Do ranged weapons that are double str not allow WBB rolls?

Thanx everyone so far, please keep posting your opinion as we have a battle coming up against him and i do not want another heated argument with him.

Cheers, Old Sledgeaxe.

When Chuck Norris was denied an Egg McMuffin at McDonald's because it was 10:35, he roundhouse kicked the store so hard it became a Wendy's.

Old Sledgeaxe wrote:

1. models that are killed in cc with a power weapon or a weapon (ranged or cc) thats double str, makes that model have no WBB unless there is a res orb within 6"

Correct

2. Once a model fails its WBB roll it is removed from the table, permantly, even if theres a monolith, tomb spider etc.

Correct

3. Do ranged weapons that are double str not allow WBB rolls?

That is correct, they do not. Res-orbs are the exception of course. EDIT:For complete clarity, ranged weapons with str equal to 2x the toughness of the target deny WBB rolls.

DO show him this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Especially this part:

Necron faq wrote:Q. When do you remove Necrons that fail their
WBB roll?
A. Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move.

Its not just ranged, its any weapon thats 2x toughness, i believe.

The RO effects the entire squad if even one modle in the unit is within six inches.

If a modle fails its WBB role affter doing the rest you say that you moving the let say three modles that were downed and falied there roles and the rest of there unit into the monolith. This allows them to re-role WBBany who fail this one are removed from play normaly. This can only be done to one unit per turn.

Old Sledgeaxe wrote:Thanx everyone, but my opponent still believes that if you "down" a necron and that necron fails its wbb roll it stays on the board until next turn. Then it can roll again for the wbb roll.

Not a smart person I presume? Advise this person to actually read their codex.


The section pg 13 that says "We'll be back" second paragraph "roll of 1-3, remove model as normal". the only exception to this is if they are going to be teleported to a monolith for a second WBB back attempt. 1-3 there, it's removed as normal again.

A simple premise to WBB rolls:

Damaged models are removed at the beginning of the Necron turn, unless they make their WBB roll. So, it a model doesn't satisfy the WBB roll rule it is removed. Period.

Additionally, the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, although not Necessarily of the same unit.

side question: what qualifies as same type? immortals = warriors? heavy destroyers \ destroyers?

While type is now defined as Infantry, Jump Infantry, Beasts, etc., it was not in 3rd edition (when the Necron codex was written). It is generally accepted that type= entry, I.E. Warriors = Warriors, Immortals= Immortals, ETC. It was FAQ'd in 3rd edition that H. Destroyers don't count for WBB purposes for Destroyers, and vice versa.

Thanx everyone, i think our battles are goin to be much smoother from now on. oh, Bluedagger, yeah he is not very smart and incredibly stubborn, not a good combination, but i do believe that he will see the sense of things unless my friend has already cracked him.

Thanx everyone for your help, but he still doesn't understand how monoliths work, he thinks that a squad that teleports doesnt suffer ANY casualties that turn, aka instantly passes any WBB save and is always allowed one.

Please could you comment on how to show that he is wrong.

Cheers, Old Sledgeaxe

Earth's emergency defence plan in case of alien invasion is Chuck Norris.

How to show it is wrong? Because the rules for the Monolith states that any failed WBB rolls in the unit get another attempt - not that they automatically pass. In addition you remove the models that CANNOT WBB before you port them through the monolith, so they cannot be there in the first place!

thanx i think he could understand this.

I just discovered a slight flaw in my plan, he doesnt believee that any of this is real and that how he interprets the codex is the right way, only problem is that means that all of his necrons just lie on the field and roll WBB every turn.

I know this is wrong and its ruining our games as we tried to play along but it just DOESNT WORK!!

HE thinks that only games workshop is right and wont believe me in what i tell him about your opinions.

Please help me, it is becomeing very difficult.

Old sledgeaxe

Simple: ask him to show you the EXACT rules that let him do what he says: so for the monolith get him to show you that it states they "automatically" get their WBB - that's the easiest one, as he cannot do so.

Once a chink of doubt starts you may be able to get him to admit he doesn't know what he's talking about

Then I'd point out another rule to him, Sledge:

Grab the big 'ol rulebook.

Read the first few pages off to him, most importantly, Warhammer 40k is about having fun with your friends. If he's SO stubborn in believing he's right, DESPITE the fact that he is wrong, he's more concerned with winning in a friendly match then having fun. I'd show him that. If he still will not conceed that he's wrong, I'd pack up my stuff and leave.

Its not worth it.

cKerensky wrote:Then I'd point out another rule to him, Sledge:

Grab the big 'ol rulebook.

Don't forget to roll on the Can Yer Mother Sew? chart, and also the 2d6" scatter for teeth

Yeah, will do cKerensky. Ive got a match aginst him on Sunday so hopefully i can put my methods into practice.

Thanx everyone, is there another way or do i just not allow him to have the priveledge of fighting and leave if he doesnt agree? im not a pyschologist so i dont know how i would convince him?

Well thanx anyway, if you have any suggestions just say.

Cheers, Old Sledgeaxe

Chuck Norris can kick through all 6 degrees of separation, hitting anyone, anywhere, in the face, at any time.

cKerensky wrote:Then I'd point out another rule to him, Sledge:

Grab the big 'ol rulebook.

Read the first few pages off to him, most importantly, Warhammer 40k is about having fun with your friends. If he's SO stubborn in believing he's right, DESPITE the fact that he is wrong, he's more concerned with winning in a friendly match then having fun. I'd show him that. If he still will not conceed that he's wrong, I'd pack up my stuff and leave.

Its not worth it.

And what's to stop him countering "If I don't win on a 1+ I am not having fun, therefore I have to win on a 1+ and if you say no you are TFG and not following TMIR"?

Whilst Gwar! is correct, he would not do this as even he is not that obsessed with winning, close to it but not THAT obsessed. He would rather play and say it doesn't count than us not included him. Yes, he is that immature.

Chuck Norris can kick through all 6 degrees of separation, hitting anyone, anywhere, in the face, at any time.