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When running tactical squads or marine bike squads, is it worth it to PF your sergeants?

It gives your tactical squad a good chance to tear open a vehicle in assault. It gives your marines a shot on destroying the dreadnought in combat.
It keeps your models from losing assault, running back then auto-rallying to shoot again.

Overall, is the PF worth it in your squads?

I don't know with SM being able to run away and auto regrouping PF would only be useful if you are planing to charge the MC, Dread, ect. In Many ways a 5pts melta bomb would work out better.

i play necrons and against me. once the powerfist reaches assault it assures my loss in combat. so yes take it. and it is also very good against vehicles (other than armour 14) and monsterous creatures. i do admit that if you face orks alot you may not need the powerfist though. again its all about you personal preference. but im my experience the powerfist does wonders.
hope this helps

white_kid wrote:i play necrons and against me. once the powerfist reaches assault it assures my loss in combat. so yes take it. and it is also very good against vehicles (other than armour 14) and monsterous creatures. i do admit that if you face orks alot you may not need the powerfist though. again its all about you personal preference. but im my experience the powerfist does wonders.
hope this helps

Thanks for your thoughts.

The Powerfist is awesome against MeQs. However if you are fighting something like guard or eldar. Id rather the extra attack wounding on 3's that comes from a trusty Space Marine powersword

It really does depend on which you would rather have. If you tend to fight weaker t opponents go with the powersword. if you happen to always seem to be getting stuck in against dreads and mc's you should probly take the p fist.

My personal preference is the pfist. I like having that ability to cream what ever I hit and alot of people around here seem to run mc's and dreads more often then not.

Also i tend to play fairly defensive so having some one kitted out for cc isnt really my cup of tea. Id much rather shoot away then charge.

You have the correct pro's and con's in mind...

I need to see your list for sure. But assuming that you didn't take a character with chapter tactics, then you have less to worry about with dreadnoughts, as you have a chance to make a break for it, for free.

Bikes are a bit scary to not have fists for because they run FAR, and are more likely to want a fist, although buying them a fist does not make them a capable assault unit in most cases.

In most cases with combat tactics in play, I say skip the fist, and use generalship to avoid close combats that you can't win with regular sized fists, and spend those points on shooting.

However, if you are stubborn or fearless for any reason, the fist is a LOT more tempting.

Lol if you are guard and you have a choice of the fist... don't

Shep makes a very valid point about the bikes running far. Assaulting anywhere near a table-edge, if you aren't 100% sure you are going to win, is a no-go.

I usually go with Powerweapon or Combimelta, meltabomb.

That's just me.

Imagine your 200 point tactical squad gets charged by a T7 Carnifex, T8 Wraithlord or C'tan, an AV10 Sentinel or an AV11 Killa kan, or an AV12 Dreadnought.

That is a tactical squad that is doomed.

Now Imagine your 215 point tactical squad with powerfist instead of power sword gets charged by those things.

That is a tactical squad that is going to be shooting again in a turn or 2.

^ albeit short a few sacrificial marines... but they die for the emprah!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:^ albeit short a few sacrificial marines... but they die for the emprah!

It's how they would have wanted to go

Canonness Rory wrote:Imagine your 200 point tactical squad gets charged by a T7 Carnifex, T8 Wraithlord or C'tan, an AV10 Sentinel or an AV11 Killa kan, or an AV12 Dreadnought.

That is a tactical squad that is doomed.

Now Imagine your 215 point tactical squad with powerfist instead of power sword gets charged by those things.

That is a tactical squad that is going to be shooting again in a turn or 2.

The first tactical squad lose 2-3 men and falls back and melta guns the T7 Carnifex, T8 Wraithlord or C'tan, an AV10 Sentinel or an AV11 Killa kan, or an AV12 Dreadnought along with the rest of the army

The second tactical also lose 2-3 men but also get a slim chance at returning some damage....
T7 Carnifex takes a wound you still lose combat.
T8 Wraithlord or C'tan takes a wound you still lose combat.
AV10 Sentinel you smash into it and destroy a weapon ... you still lose combat
AV11 Killa kan you smash into it and destroy a weapon ... you still lose combat
AV12 Dreadnought you smash into it and stun it (extra armour) ... you still lose combat

No matter how good a power fist is you still need to roll to hit (1/2 average) roll at least a 4+ (ok 3+ for the sentinel) and then in the case of the vehicles actually cause some damage worth talking about (on a pen 4+)

The power sword enhances the abilities of the sarge without actually changing them - he's still good at killing the same things but is a little improved.

The power fist gives the sarge new abilities - in particular vs vehicles and walkers.

It is expensive but it's also much more reliable than a melta bomb (three goes instead of one) up to AV12. For AV13 and 14 the meltabomb has the advantage. At the current pricing I think it's a tough call between power weapon+melta bomb and power fist.

Good post on Powerfists (for both loyalists and CSM):
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/power-fists.html

Thanks, that link seems handy

How is your squad even getting charged by the above things?

Heck, why is your squad even outa their transport?

In 5th ed power fists are usually a huge waste of points because you have no way to protect it from shooting or massive amounts of attacks.

If you really have pts to spare, I would say melta bombs for your sgt. are a better idea.

Tri wrote:The first tactical squad lose 2-3 men and falls back and melta guns the T7 Carnifex, T8 Wraithlord or C'tan, an AV10 Sentinel or an AV11 Killa kan, or an AV12 Dreadnought along with the rest of the army

Don't you still have to roll off vs. Infinitive to see if your squad is wiped on the fallback? Am I missing something with this ruling?

labmouse42 wrote:

Tri wrote:The first tactical squad lose 2-3 men and falls back and melta guns the T7 Carnifex, T8 Wraithlord or C'tan, an AV10 Sentinel or an AV11 Killa kan, or an AV12 Dreadnought along with the rest of the army

Don't you still have to roll off vs. Infinitive to see if your squad is wiped on the fallback? Am I missing something with this ruling?

Space marines can't be killed with sweeping advance because they are awesome. (and have ATSKNF)

Why would you roll off vs infinitive?

Timmah wrote:
Space marines can't be killed with sweeping advance because they are awesome. (and have ATSKNF)

Why would you roll off vs infinitive?

Hey, If I'm wrong in reading these rules, please let me know! I would love it if my marines could disengage from combat at will without any repercussions.

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale check to hold their ground .... If they pass, the unit fights on ... If they fail, they must abandon the fight and will fall back." p39 Base Rule Book
"A non-fearless Space Marine can chose to automatically fail any Morale check if it is called upon" p51 Marine Codex
"When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a Sweeping Advance, attempting to cut down the retreating enemies. Both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their Initiative value to the result." p40 Base Rule Book
"If Space marines are caught by a sweeping advance they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally. If this happens the unit is subject to the No Retreat! rule in this round of close combat" p51 Marine Codex
"These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back. Instead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by (allocated as normal)." p44 Base Rule Book

The way that I read it is this : If a marine unit is caught in a sweeping advance, then for that round of close combat, they have "No Retreat!" and will need to make a number of saved based upon how many they lost the close combat by.

Thanks for helping to clarify this for me!

labmouse42 wrote:

Timmah wrote:
Space marines can't be killed with sweeping advance because they are awesome. (and have ATSKNF)

Why would you roll off vs infinitive?

Hey, If I'm wrong in reading these rules, please let me know! I would love it if my marines could disengage from combat at will without any repercussions.

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale check to hold their ground .... If they pass, the unit fights on ... If they fail, they must abandon the fight and will fall back." p39 Base Rule Book
"A non-fearless Space Marine can chose to automatically fail any Morale check if it is called upon" p51 Marine Codex
"When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a Sweeping Advance, attempting to cut down the retreating enemies. Both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their Initiative value to the result." p40 Base Rule Book
"If Space marines are caught by a sweeping advance they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally. If this happens the unit is subject to the No Retreat! rule in this round of close combat" p51 Marine Codex
"These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back. Instead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by (allocated as normal)." p44 Base Rule Book

The way that I read it is this : If a marine unit is caught in a sweeping advance, then for that round of close combat, they have "No Retreat!" and will need to make a number of saved based upon how many they lost the close combat by.

Thanks for helping to clarify this for me!

Labmouse - that's exactly how I think it works - you have to win the initiative roll to avoid having to take some saves and still being stuck in combat...

Slinky wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Timmah wrote:
Space marines can't be killed with sweeping advance because they are awesome. (and have ATSKNF)

Why would you roll off vs infinitive?

Hey, If I'm wrong in reading these rules, please let me know! I would love it if my marines could disengage from combat at will without any repercussions.

"Units that lose a close combat must take a Morale check to hold their ground .... If they pass, the unit fights on ... If they fail, they must abandon the fight and will fall back." p39 Base Rule Book
"A non-fearless Space Marine can chose to automatically fail any Morale check if it is called upon" p51 Marine Codex
"When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a Sweeping Advance, attempting to cut down the retreating enemies. Both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their Initiative value to the result." p40 Base Rule Book
"If Space marines are caught by a sweeping advance they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally. If this happens the unit is subject to the No Retreat! rule in this round of close combat" p51 Marine Codex
"These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back. Instead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by (allocated as normal)." p44 Base Rule Book

The way that I read it is this : If a marine unit is caught in a sweeping advance, then for that round of close combat, they have "No Retreat!" and will need to make a number of saved based upon how many they lost the close combat by.

Thanks for helping to clarify this for me!

Labmouse - that's exactly how I think it works - you have to win the initiative roll to avoid having to take some saves and still being stuck in combat...

Yes. Just because you decide to fail a morale check does not mean your opponent lets you walk away from close combat.

I think you are probably better off with the PW right now.use the points you saved on a combi-weapon.

Powerfists for many reasons. when you want something dead, and dead fast, this is how you do it. in a tournament, all three games I played I got screwed quite easily. mainly because I went for fun, not competition (then I realized how much fun I could have ripping these guys to shreds). But, the only reason I stayed above last place was because of my powerfists. Extra points for popping expensive HQ's from a sarge is well worth it. Not one survived because of that.

Next is the transport full of guys charging in. If it ends up immobilised because you can't shoot a melta gun for squat (like me) box it in, kablamo, dead squad too. instead of one melta bomb hit, you get three hits, and do you really need 2D6 armor penetration against a rhino? not really.

"It's useless against Land Raiders" is the next argument. simple, ignore the land raider. There are softer targets out there for kill points and victory points, and how often is that Land Raider carrying troops? screw it, avoid it no need when those enemy scouts look much easier to kill.

I use csm, but seeing that tac squads and basic csm are quite simlar ill add my 2 pence. I rather like them, espessially when facing high touness things. That carnifex with the 1 last would that you couldn't kill from shooting bothering you?, charge in,lose a few men, and crush his balls with your 'uge mechanical hand!

p.s just typing that gave me a strange sensation
p.p.s Their not bad against bikes and the like too

labmouse42 wrote:
"These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back. Instead, these units suffer a number of wounds equal to the number their side has lost the combat by (allocated as normal)." p44 Base Rule Book

what does allocated as normal mean?

when i play my friend's Nids he fields a choir (3 Zoans and a Tyrant all w/ Psychic Scream) which often lowers my leadership by 4 and thus adds to the number I loose by in CC. Should I, a nilla marine player, roll No Retreat! saves for the Psychic Scream Ld. Penalty? I have been and it really hurts!

It means that you take the number of casualties the losing side took, subtract the number of casualties the losing side inflicted and that is the combat result - sans any special rules that might change this - and the number of extra saves that the losing side would have to take should No Retreat! come about.

Allocated as normal means that the wounds are distributed to the squad as normal with the models owner determining which wounds will go on what models per the BGB.

rowan-thats-me wrote:I use csm, but seeing that tac squads and basic csm are quite simlar ill add my 2 pence. I rather like them, espessially when facing high touness things. That carnifex with the 1 last would that you couldn't kill from shooting bothering you?, charge in,lose a few men, and crush his balls with your 'uge mechanical hand!

p.s just typing that gave me a strange sensation
p.p.s Their not bad against bikes and the like too

One important difference, however, as Stelek pointed out in the link I posted above, is that CSM marines can't voluntarily fall back / auto-regroup. So a fist is much better for them, as they are probably going to be stuck in combat anyway, unlike the 'nilla rines.

The thing is, Combat Tactics + ATSKNF doesn't let you regroup if the enemy is within 6". Sure, you can voluntarily fall back, but if the enemy comsolidate too close, you are hosed and must fall back again on your next turn...only to be assaulted again.

This is why PFs are still usefull to SMs. If you are guarding a home objective near a table edge, and you get asasulted, volentarily falling back could cost you the game. Also, if you are trying to take and hold an objective, you don't want to take the chance of getting runn off it from a late turn assault by the enemy. In both cases, the you will wish you had the PF, instead of relying on Combat Tactics + ATSKNF.

Alerian wrote:The thing is, Combat Tactics + ATSKNF doesn't let you regroup if the enemy is within 6". Sure, you can voluntarily fall back, but if the enemy comsolidate too close, you are hosed and must fall back again on your next turn...only to be assaulted again.

This is why PFs are still usefull to SMs. If you are guarding a home objective near a table edge, and you get asasulted, volentarily falling back could cost you the game. Also, if you are trying to take and hold an objective, you don't want to take the chance of getting runn off it from a late turn assault by the enemy. In both cases, the you will wish you had the PF, instead of relying on Combat Tactics + ATSKNF.

Of course combat tactics doesn't always work. A lot of times you don't get away, and you take fearless wounds, sometimes they get within 6" and you have to run for another turn. But it is free, and its about as reliable as a 2 attack power fist for getting out of dreadnought or killer CC unit jams. Which is to say... not very.

Now if your plan for that power fist is to get in there and actually WIN assaults against stuff, then the power fist is quite awesome. And combat tactics loses all appeal. Better to take an SC with chapter tactics at that point.

As far as getting assaulted again after falling back. That really shouldn't happen or you did it wrong. Don't combat tactics out of a fight that is happening on your own turn. Use it to get out of a fight on THEIR turn. The idea is that the unit that just popped out of combat isn't going to be around on your opponents turn. You would use combat tactics to shoot a unit that charged your marines, or at very least tie it up with a more dedicated cc unit to rescue your resources.

Its not a reliable way to save a unit. But its free of charge and the 25 point powerfist doesn't make losing combat suddenly winners... at least not since 5th edition rolled around. Power fists are good, if your goal is to get in there and rip it up (and then you are likely using khan, lysander, vulkan, pedro... someone who trades in combat tactics) Power fists shouldn't be used as a defensive measure, in this gamers opinion.