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 krodarklorr wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

harkequin wrote:
I think, due to the choose one profile each turn restriction

What do you mean by choose one profile each turn?

To be brief, there was a discussion awhile back after the release of the codex (that has somehow never come up before to my knowledge) that based on a wording in the rule book, a weapon with multiple profiles must choose one to use for each turn. Therefor, you weren't able to shoot it, then charge and use it in CC in the same turn. However, this is incorrect. Use it as you have been using it, and don't let people tell you otherwise.

Aaaaah, ok. I didn't even know that was a debate. Thanks

Just got back from my game. Me and Tau against two Dark Eldar players. I went full Asasult... but I was stupid and brought a Conclave of the Burning One, forgetting that nearly every bloody thing in their list has poison.

Either way, also brought an Orikanstar + Destroyer Lord with 2+/4++/IWND/Warscythe, which is basically a monster. Once the Conclave died, that unit took about 3 turns of focus fire, charged a unit of Warriors killing them and then finally went down after being charged by a Talos, Chronos, Wracks, and Jetbikes all in one turn. And even then, it was only because I failed the Morale roll and got wiped. It's very apparent why Zahndrekh is super useful in that situation.

Basically, my two big scary deathstars took the brunt of 3000 points of shooting and assault for ~4 turns while my Tau ally just shot the crap out of everything. It worked quite well.

Requizen wrote:
Just got back from my game. Me and Tau against two Dark Eldar players. I went full Asasult... but I was stupid and brought a Conclave of the Burning One, forgetting that nearly every bloody thing in their list has poison.

Either way, also brought an Orikanstar + Destroyer Lord with 2+/4++/IWND/Warscythe, which is basically a monster. Once the Conclave died, that unit took about 3 turns of focus fire, charged a unit of Warriors killing them and then finally went down after being charged by a Talos, Chronos, Wracks, and Jetbikes all in one turn. And even then, it was only because I failed the Morale roll and got wiped. It's very apparent why Zahndrekh is super useful in that situation.

Basically, my two big scary deathstars took the brunt of 3000 points of shooting and assault for ~4 turns while my Tau ally just shot the crap out of everything. It worked quite well.

Well, who won? I want to hear it just for confirmation purposes. =P

We took it near the end. We had first blood, they eventually got Warlord on me, but we held an objective and contested the other two for Big Guns Never Tire, and both sides had Linebreaker. It was pretty close overall, I think if the game went on it could have been anyone's game. I was whittled down to 2 units of Flayed Ones and 5 Immortals, but Tau hadn't lost more than a Drone and a couple Fire Warriors. We would have been able to drop most of them, but one guy was running that nasty Talos + Chronos + Haemonculus formation that was all but impossible to kill.

I think we would have taken it if we had time for another turn, even with just Flayed Ones left they didn't have enough shooting on the table to really stop them from running roughshod through Warriors or even wrecking light vehicles. Meanwhile, when the Crisis team came in it erased 4 transports from the board by itself (judicious use of Targeting Relays) and was ready to continue clearing out bodies.

If I had been thinking, I would have run Wraiths or just more shooting instead of the Conclave. As it stood, it turned out ok.

Requizen wrote:
We took it near the end. We had first blood, they eventually got Warlord on me, but we held an objective and contested the other two for Big Guns Never Tire, and both sides had Linebreaker. It was pretty close overall, I think if the game went on it could have been anyone's game. I was whittled down to 2 units of Flayed Ones and 5 Immortals, but Tau hadn't lost more than a Drone and a couple Fire Warriors. We would have been able to drop most of them, but one guy was running that nasty Talos + Chronos + Haemonculus formation that was all but impossible to kill.

I think we would have taken it if we had time for another turn, even with just Flayed Ones left they didn't have enough shooting on the table to really stop them from running roughshod through Warriors or even wrecking light vehicles. Meanwhile, when the Crisis team came in it erased 4 transports from the board by itself (judicious use of Targeting Relays) and was ready to continue clearing out bodies.

If I had been thinking, I would have run Wraiths or just more shooting instead of the Conclave. As it stood, it turned out ok.

Yeah, the conclave was probably the worst thing you could've done against DE. In a casual game where I know who I'm fighting, I'll leave him at home.

I'm coming to the same conclusion about my game against DE this weekend. I've dropped the harvest from my list as all those poison shots hurt MC's and I'm adding more mobility in the form of night scythes and deathmarks. I'm keeping the royal court lychstar though. I really want to rout his grots by switching zahndrek's warlord ability to 'lowest leadership in unit'. Which would be an evil combo with the nightbringer?

zerosignal wrote:
I'm coming to the same conclusion about my game against DE this weekend. I've dropped the harvest from my list as all those poison shots hurt MC's and I'm adding more mobility in the form of night scythes and deathmarks. I'm keeping the royal court lychstar though. I really want to rout his grots by switching zahndrek's warlord ability to 'lowest leadership in unit'. Which would be an evil combo with the nightbringer?

Very much so, just hope they don;t make an incredible amount of FnP

So the current stance on Praetorians is Void Blades? I've built one set as Rods but that's for the Judicator where they re-roll to hit and wound their ap2 weapons which is nice

To be brief, there was a discussion awhile back after the release of the codex (that has somehow never come up before to my knowledge) that based on a wording in the rule book, a weapon with multiple profiles must choose one to use for each turn. Therefor, you weren't able to shoot it, then charge and use it in CC in the same turn. However, this is incorrect. Use it as you have been using it, and don't let people tell you otherwise.

There is no need for that now. It is one of the least ambiguous cases of RAW out there.

The rule is very clear, if you have 2 profiles, you must choose one for each turn.

So don't tell him , it's wrong and not to let anyone say otherwise. It's correct, it's just a stupid rule.
The consensus is that the writers probably forgot it existed when they wrote the codex. If you want to play RAI, or houserule it go ahead. But if you play RAW, it's clear as day, not accepting your opponent telling you that, (if you're both playing RAW) is cheating.

It'll probably get FAQ'd , but until then it's important to know, for anyone considering using praets, as in a tournament scene this could be a big deal, and important to know.

Don't just tell the guy to flat out ignore a rule, that's just poor form.

No tournament packet follows that interpretation. You're in a very large minority, and this thread isn't for inane rules discussion. You're not going to be swayed and you're not going to sway anyone, so it's best to drop it.

No tournament packet follows that interpretation. You're in a very large minority, and this thread isn't for inane rules discussion. You're not going to be swayed and you're not going to sway anyone, so it's best to drop it.

Someone asked about praetorian loadouts, I was just letting him know the ups/downs of both load outs, as per the rules.

I am considering running a conclave, the c'tan by itself I find is too slow and vulnerable.

However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?

Going to be running a nightbringer with 1 cryptek with veil and god shackle and the other with the solar staff.

If anyone seriously tried to enforce that Praetorian rule I would just pack up my models and not play with them anymore.

By that logic, you shouldn't get an extra attack with Pistols in CC, since they used the Shooting profile before charging in, so they can't count as Close Combat weapons. Assault Marines just got even worse!

Punisher wrote:
I am considering running a conclave, the c'tan by itself I find is too slow and vulnerable.

However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?

Going to be running a nightbringer with 1 cryptek with veil and god shackle and the other with the solar staff.

I've used the Conclave quite extensively, but keep in mind that I'm by no way an authority on the matter. I run the following setup:

Nightbringer
Cryptek with Solar Staff and Phase Shifter
Cryptek with Veil and God Shackle

Note that Crypteks get a 4+ RP roll against even ID, since they both add +1 modifier to it.

I keep the Cryptek with Solar Staff out front. He has a 4++/4+++, so he's actually pretty durable. The turn I Veil in, or the turn that I think I'm going to take the most fire, I pop the Solar. I take everything on the Cryptek unless it's S8 or higher, which I Look Out, Sir! onto the C'tan so the Cryptek doesn't get ID'd. Once he's gone, I take all further shooting on the C'tan since losing the God Shackle Cryptek is actually worse.

The Nightbringer losing a wound or two isn't bad since Gaze of Death gets them back, but if they have lots of Heavy Weapons or Poison, it's very easy to lose all 4 wounds in a single round of shooting. I use the Solar Cryptek to shrug off as much as possible, he basically acts as the "Shield" to the unit.

However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?

Cryptek-Nightbringer-Cryptek. Crypteks have 2+ look out sir. Nightbringer has 4+. It's easier to relocate wounds from a cryptek, than a C'tan.

Requizen wrote:
If anyone seriously tried to enforce that Praetorian rule I would just pack up my models and not play with them anymore.

By that logic, you shouldn't get an extra attack with Pistols in CC, since they used the Shooting profile before charging in, so they can't count as Close Combat weapons. Assault Marines just got even worse!

I mean, I'm with you on the "not playing that person anymore" area. If they wanted to rules lawyer it, I have some examples I like to bring up to them. Also, the whole Pistol debate was also part of the same debate, and they have special rules that still allow them to be used in CC anyway.

Oi
Drop it, already

Requizen wrote:
If anyone seriously tried to enforce that Praetorian rule I would just pack up my models and not play with them anymore.

By that logic, you shouldn't get an extra attack with Pistols in CC, since they used the Shooting profile before charging in, so they can't count as Close Combat weapons. Assault Marines just got even worse!

Punisher wrote:
I am considering running a conclave, the c'tan by itself I find is too slow and vulnerable.

However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?

Going to be running a nightbringer with 1 cryptek with veil and god shackle and the other with the solar staff.

I've used the Conclave quite extensively, but keep in mind that I'm by no way an authority on the matter. I run the following setup:

Nightbringer
Cryptek with Solar Staff and Phase Shifter
Cryptek with Veil and God Shackle

Note that Crypteks get a 4+ RP roll against even ID, since they both add +1 modifier to it.

I keep the Cryptek with Solar Staff out front. He has a 4++/4+++, so he's actually pretty durable. The turn I Veil in, or the turn that I think I'm going to take the most fire, I pop the Solar. I take everything on the Cryptek unless it's S8 or higher, which I Look Out, Sir! onto the C'tan so the Cryptek doesn't get ID'd. Once he's gone, I take all further shooting on the C'tan since losing the God Shackle Cryptek is actually worse.

The Nightbringer losing a wound or two isn't bad since Gaze of Death gets them back, but if they have lots of Heavy Weapons or Poison, it's very easy to lose all 4 wounds in a single round of shooting. I use the Solar Cryptek to shrug off as much as possible, he basically acts as the "Shield" to the unit.

Don't forget the fact that someone pointed out, in that thread, the huge number of models that would be affected by that.

If you're doing Judicator, one squad of each is what I would do. Otherwise, if you're paired up with a Destroyer Cult, just do Rods for AP2. Blades still aren't a bad choice though. Hard to pick honestly...

Yeah, as for the weapon loadouts... I dunno. Having more AP2 is never a bad thing, but the Blades are pretty good too. Against anything 4+ or lower it doesn't matter anyway, and the extra attacks are awesome as always. It makes them better against AV12 or higher, though that's fairly situational. I am a big proponent of just having as much AP2 as possible, though.

Here's the thing. For 12 points more than Voidtorians you can get Wraiths. Wraiths are sorta like Voidblade Praetorians but also different. If you want a fast rending unit, maybe you just want Wraiths? Rod Praetorians are different altogether, since having AP2 makes them a completely separate unit for target priority (for the most part).

Requizen wrote:
Yeah, as for the weapon loadouts... I dunno. Having more AP2 is never a bad thing, but the Blades are pretty good too. Against anything 4+ or lower it doesn't matter anyway, and the extra attacks are awesome as always. It makes them better against AV12 or higher, though that's fairly situational. I am a big proponent of just having as much AP2 as possible, though.

Here's the thing. For 12 points more than Voidtorians you can get Wraiths. Wraiths are sorta like Voidblade Praetorians but also different. If you want a fast rending unit, maybe you just want Wraiths? Rod Praetorians are different altogether, since having AP2 makes them a completely separate unit for target priority (for the most part).

I have to respectfully disagree. Voidblade Praetorians do more damage than Wraiths. Aren't as durable, no. But do more damage. 258 points of Wraiths gets you 6 fearless models, 12 wounds total, a 3++ save (but no RP, and if they have it, it's easy to get rid of it), and a full squad has 24 S6 AP- attacks on the charge with rending. 280 points gets you 10 also fearless praetorians, but 40 S5 AP4 attacks on the charge, also with rending, as well as Entropic Strike (Helps for things like Walkers and Land Raiders when your rending hits fail to cause enough damage), and they always have RP. Plus, 10 S6 pistol shots.

Overall, a little more expensive, and you give up some durability, but you'll do way more damage than Wraiths.

I mean yeah, they're not the same, so it really does depend. I just think that if you're looking for a fast moving unit with lots of attacks (which is the reason that you bring Voidblades over Rods), Wraiths are slightly better overall since they ignore terrain without needing the formation, are more durable, and can be a higher initiative (which is pretty good for a fast striking unit). Voidblade Praetorians putting out a lot more attacks is better in some situations, of course.

Thanks for the comments guys. I have 20 praetorians so I think I'll just build half as Void Blades and Half as Rods. They're both really good for certain situations. I would much rather have void blades against hordes and other necrons but would rather have rods against MEQ and TEQ.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys. I have 20 praetorians so I think I'll just build half as Void Blades and Half as Rods. They're both really good for certain situations. I would much rather have void blades against hordes and other necrons but would rather have rods against MEQ and TEQ.

Yeah, that's what I would do. Run a Judicator Battalion with 2 10 man units, each with a different weapon.

20 Praets is quite a points investment. VB Praets, yeah, max them out as you want as many attacks as possible with them, but I'd run 7 Rods max, unless I knew I was going to be facing a ton of 2+ saves.
Plus, you have to remember the formation bonus that the Stalker grants is only in the shooting phase, they can't reroll in combat (which is why attaching a D.Lord to VB Praets is always prudent, as Rending loves PE). Though, because the bonus extends to ALL the units in the formation, if you throw in a couple of Night Scythes for the Praets (they don't have to be in them), you'll have tank hunting flyers (rerolls to hit and to pen).

RE my game vs DE yesterday:
Well, that was a total beating. The decurion is incredibly powerful - I think I lost a ghost ark, a few warriors and the CCB, and an immortal or a deathmark here and there.

The deathstar just tanked soooo many wounds it was insane. It didn't kill much (it spent most of the game running away from grots) but it drew so much fire and survived completely intact. At the end of the game it was in my opponents backfield smashing up vehicles.

What it lacks in firepower it more than makes up for in endurance. That seems pretty good in maelstrom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
Though, because the bonus extends to ALL the units in the formation, if you throw in a couple of Night Scythes for the Praets (they don't have to be in them), you'll have tank hunting flyers (rerolls to hit and to pen).

Ooof. That's a bit busted! In fact, that seems to be a theme... my opponent was pretty upset yesterday when he realised my entire army was move through cover.

No dangerous terrain tests for me!

I think the CCB is worth considering, I mean have you read all the chariot rules? It gets an insane number of buffs. Re-roll charge range, D6 S6 HoW attacks, armour 13 in combat... it's a fast skimmer, and as part of the royal court it has move through cover (so no dangerous terrain tests...).

Yep, the Orikanstar is a monstrosity to try and drop. I took down a Stompa with mine over the weekend. Strength D sword? Who cares with 3++ rerolling 1s?

The CCB is... iffy in my opinion. Granted, a kitted out one can be quite powerful, but you're paying a lot for it.

My issue with it is the fact that it has to be so choosy about what it wants to charge. The 3 best Assault units in the book, imo, are Flayed Ones, Shieldguard, and Wraiths. The best thing about all of these is that they don't really care what they charge. Wraiths are going to tarpit up anything and tear apart most things. Ditto for Lychguard. Flayed Ones are so cheap that even throwing them into a combat you know you're going to lose just to be a speedbump is fine.

The CCB though, you have to make sure the thing you charge isn't just going to punk you in one turn. If it has any of: Melta Bombs, Haywire Grenades, Powerfists, S10 weaponry of any kind, Armorbane weapons, or anything of that nature. Since the Barge doesn't have any sort of save, anything that can glance or pen it in Assault will just kill it out from under you in seconds flat. That also means that any army consisting of Monstrous Creatures are just going to laugh at it. Meanwhile, most dedicated assault units, even if they don't have anti-armor weaponry, are going to tear the Overlord a new data port before he can go at his I2.

It's good against shooting focused units that can't realistically fight back, and it's good against vehicles. It's not all bad, with the massive speed of 30" per turn if you Flat Out, you can nominally get to any unit you want to, and it's more or less invincible against shooting attacks if you kit it out right. A blinged out CCB with 2+/4++/IWND is going to laugh at most shooting in the game. But offensively, it's lacking.

I'd agree with most of that. In that particular game it was ok (took a lot of shooting, mashed a vehicle). I did wish I'd taken a warscythe over the staff, although given most of his vehicles were armour 11 or 10 front, I thought 3x S5 plus 2x S6 plys D6 S6 plus 4 s5 attacks would be ok, and he'd be tough enough to take on the MSU troops inside the light transports, and resistant to all the poisoned small arms fire.

To be honest with the exception of warriors in an ark, blobs of immortals, and nightscythes (4 twin linked tesla S7!!) shooting is pretty lacking in the list I ran. I'd have struggled against an obsec list, I think. Durability though... amazing.

How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?

 Deuce11 wrote:
How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?

You can run it base but I prefer to take the following:

Warscythe and Phase Shifter for Destroyer Lord.
Upgrade 1 Destroyers to Heavy Destroyer in each squad (only 10 points each).
Purchase a full unit of Heavy Destroyers for the optional slot.

After that I might upgrade the Destroyer Lord further with a Nightmare Shroud if the points are available but minimum squad sizes works well for the MSU factor.

Zimko wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?

You can run it base but I prefer to take the following:

Warscythe and Phase Shifter for Destroyer Lord.
Upgrade 1 Destroyers to Heavy Destroyer in each squad (only 10 points each).
Purchase a full unit of Heavy Destroyers for the optional slot.

After that I might upgrade the Destroyer Lord further with a Nightmare Shroud if the points are available but minimum squad sizes works well for the MSU factor.

Agreed. 3 units of 2 Regular + 1 Heavy and a unit of 3 Heavies - or as I like to call it: 6D6H. Basically enough firepower to tear down any heavy armor or tough units, though it's lacking the numerical output for hordes of enemies. Of course, that's what you have Warriors and Flayed Ones for.

I also agree on the Destroyer Lord loadout. Getting 4++ and Warscythe is important. I would say the next thing to get is either IWND or 2+, or both. Just remember to put him in something other than Destroyers so he's not wasted.

 Deuce11 wrote:
How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?

I run 3 squads with 2 destroyers and 1 heavy, I then kit out the destroyer lord with shroud, warscythe and shifter. Gives you 3 units that are effective against any target and a T6 beat stick that you can hide in a unit of wraiths(or tank for them).

 Deuce11 wrote:
How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?

Depends what you want. I'm currently doing a list that's just Destroyer Cult, Judicator, and the Canoptek Harvest, so I'm actually doing x3 5 Destroyers and then the 3 Heavy Destroyers in a squad. I fething love it.