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I've seen the Nob biker units and I think they are pretty awesome. I was wondering if something like this would be effective for marines.

Space Marine Captain
Bike, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Storm Shield
Command Squad
4x SS, 2x PF, 1x PW
Apothecary

Comes to 540 Points total. They all have 3++ save and Feel No Pain for those 1's and 2's you roll against small arms. Anyone think this would work at all?

nope... they still only have 1 wound each, so unlike nobs, they will die quickly.

their saves are only slightly better than nobz at range (4+cover w/ FNP for nobz, 3++ w/ fnp for marines) and they don't have as much CC hitting power as nobs.

With a couple storm shields they can be more durable than nobs against "super units."

Where the nobs get a 5+ save against powerfists, you can put the fist wounds on 3+ saves for a bike command squad. Either unit, failed saves equals whole models killed.

IMO biker command squads can be a viable "super unit" but I think that lists built without super units can be more dangerous.

I run a Captin on bike with Art. Armour SS and TH. I rarely feel the need to run a CS with him; when I need ablative wounds to get him into CC I just attach him to a regular bike squad.

SS seems a bit of a waste on a captain, since he already has a 4++ for free. Thunder Hammer, in my opinion, is definitely a waste. He has I5, take advantage of it. Relic blades are awesome.

But you can't use SM bike Command squads like Nobz. They don't have the numbers or the wounds, nor are they as good in combat. They are slightly tougher (at least wound by wound), thanks to possible 3++ saves.

An SM bike army is a finesse army, and the Command Squad is no different. You have to pick your targets carefully to avoid being bogged down/killed.

I'm so tired of hearing this "bikes are a finesse army" crap.

Guess what, a fully kitted bike squad is not that much more than a tac squad in a rhino, is tougher, and has better anti-infantry and better anti-vehicle firepower, and is much more mobile.

The "finesse" in a bike army comes down to this flowchart:

Are they better in close combat than I am?

1. Yes: shoot them!!
2. No: charge them!!

And that's it.

The only thing that might require finesse for a bike army is avoiding the pie plates, they lack the AV coating that a tac squad has.

So far I've enjoyed my Bike Captain, although I've run mine with Relic Blade and digi weapons instead of the stormshield...although I might try that out in the future.

Gully Foyle wrote:SS seems a bit of a waste on a captain, since he already has a 4++ for free. Thunder Hammer, in my opinion, is definitely a waste. He has I5, take advantage of it. Relic blades are awesome.

I humbly disagree. I've more than once had an entire army shoot at my lone captain, and thanks to his T5,2+,3++ he's taken only a wound ot two. I5 is great, but not that great, but STR8 is awesome. I5 puts him even with most characters (MEQ HQ's) and still after the fast ones (Eldar). The TH makes him a truly versatile unit able to hunt both infantry and Vehicle/MC's, the toughness and saves make sure he gets to swing it (Having Vulkan in the list [I usually do] makes sure it hits enough to be effective). Versus MC's that survive the charge, the I modifier is mostly negated by the TH anyway.

@willydstyle:
Tac Squad in rhino + Fist/combi something = 240
8 bikers, 2 meltas, fist, Hvy bolter AB = 300.

Soooo, if your definition of 'not much more' is roughly 60 points, then sure.
I think that 60 points is a big difference.

The 60 points gets you some bonuses, but bikers are still expensive for what you get.
Hence the 'finesse' lable people give them if you play an army heavy with them, you have a lower model count replaced by an unit that is a bit tougher, faster, better at shooting, same combat effectiveness.
You lose out on some of the other hvy weapon options, you can't get to the second floor, and (though you always get 6" you must test for dangerous through terrain).
Each casualty is 'felt'.
_________________

As to the OP.
I feel command squads on bikes should try to keep things simple and cheap, (obligatory Storm shields aside).
A sprinkle LC's, a fist, and maybe a pair of special weapons.

If you have 4 storm shields, there is no reason to take a power weapon over a single lightning claw.

As for the captain, I do run him with relic and storn shield....but that's only because of WYSIWYG. I don't think SS is an 'auto-include', generally the captain I use is there to be allocated non-instant death weapons, much like the attack bike to 'save' a biker model.

My 7 Cents.

Why would you buy a 40pt AB in a unit with 2 meltaguns abd a fist? Are you intentially trying to increase the cost of the unit so your argument looks better?

Add Khan to your bike command squad for furious charge & hit & run? Does he cost that much more than a regular captain?

@DarthDiggler:
Because that Attack bike is prob. the best points for what you get in that whole unit entry.

You use the attack bike to suck up a non-instant death shot.
The way I use meltas on bikers is purely defensive. Meltas/fist are there for when I need to use them. I don't specifically race forward in a bull rush.
The hvy bolter is there to provide some longer range reach when (and most likely) I don't need to approach so quickly.

In addition when combat squadding, the hvy bolter + 3 joes can hang back and try and maximized distance from enemy assaulters and try and get some terrain cover saves, hovering near by an objective or something.

I don't plan on bikers actively seeking to get into combat, BUT, I know that a combatty opponent will do anything in his power to get into combat with me.
So when I have no more space to move back, i have the option to moveforward, shoot/charge and still have a fist to deal with power armor or AV targets.

My 7 Cents.

willydstyle wrote:Guess what, a fully kitted bike squad is not that much more than a tac squad in a rhino, is tougher, and has better anti-infantry and better anti-vehicle firepower, and is much more mobile.

The "finesse" in a bike army comes down to this flowchart:
Are they better in close combat than I am?

1. Yes: shoot them!!
2. No: charge them!!

I play a bike army and have been getting some practice, so let me add to this.
A bike squad kitted out is about 25% more expensive than a tactical squad, and have the following advantages of tac squads.
1) Can move nearly anywhere on the board they need to be with turbo-boost.
2) Can move 12" and shoot
3) Models are relentless so they can move and fire bolters 24".
4) They can assault after all the models have "double tapped"
5) Biker bolters are twin linked, increasing the chances of hitting from 2/3 to 8/9
6) Can shoot the multi-melta on the move, greatly increasing the chances of being 12" or less from a tank.
7) Gives up 1 VP when wiped. There is no rhino to give up another VP
8) When your squad is down to 2 marines, just turbo boost to the other side of the board and hide.
9) Toughness of a 4(5) vs 4.
10) Can bring two special weapons per squad.
11) Bases are larger, meaning template weapons will hit less models.

That being said, its not just a simple matter "If I'm better in assault, charge them." Last night I played a game -- and posted the battle report this morning -- where I used my command squad to charge a group that it had no hope of defeating. This tied up their command units, allowing for me to grab the other objective while contesting one with the command squad. Is that finesse, or just smart playing?

In my experience the HQ bikers are a good assault unit, which bikers are lacking. I use them as "counter assault" or "objective contesting".
In a normal marine army, they would guarantee you can get into the fight with your command squad. Turbo boost on turn one, and then engage on turn two. Turbo boosting will let you shoot up one edge of the board, and then you could flank your opponent with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sanctjud wrote:Each casualty is 'felt'.

In a 1500 point list, you can bring 42 bikes pretty easily. That's more models than many marine army lists I've seen
When your using a bike army, you don't need to spend points on tanks, dreadnoughts, etc... That lets you bring a lot more models.

I'd say that's smart playing. The idea of a "finesse" army is that it needs finesse to win with. Sometimes you gotta get tricksy no matter what army you're using.

@Flavius Infernus:
A Captain on bike + lets say a relic blade is 165.
Khan on mount is 200+ a handful.

Khan with kitted out command squad is nice, but I prefer to keep combat tactics.

Ass Termies in a LRC, now that's an interesting combo with khan...attached to them or just plain old outflanking.
___________

@labmouse42:

I don't know...the 1500 biker list I have is 37 models.

Captain, bike, relic, SS.
8 Bikes, 2 Melta, Fist, HBAB.
8 Bikes, 2 Melta, Fist, HBAB.
8 Bikes, 2 Flamers, Fist, HBAB.
3MMAB.
3MMAB.
3HBAB.

With ike 10 points left.
Maybe I'm too streamlined or buying too many upgrades, but 40+ seems more desirable, but I don't think I can get enough points to push my list over that number.

Another pro is the biker base itself, not only in avoiding more hits from templates but:

CONGA LINE: claiming more than one obj.
Claiming an obj and still moving out to get some shots off with special weaponry.
Conga lining across your deployment zone with a sacrificial squad to provide everyone behind them cover saves.
Easier combo charges if they charge sidways.

I remember this one game way back against Drop Guard.
I deployed in the center, turboed to the left side turn 1. Turn 2 comes around and I turbo up the field so my army pretty much lines up the whole short table edge.

It's raining men, but cover saves are ace. 7 squads of IG are trying to surround me when cornered, then I charge sideways along the whole flank. with half my force, including FA attack bikes.

The rest of his force comes in and plasters the bikes who did not continue turboing...then the remaining bikes clean up as a second wave.

So...... combat is not something to look forward too, but if without a choice, bikers do well enough 'initially'.

Now... for expansion I suggest some foot units....as sometimes you just can't shoot the second floor dudes to death as they hug their walls. Heh.

My 7 Cents.

The sooner marine players move to bike squads over tacticals the more they'll start to win imo.. Tacticals have virtually no advantage over bikes besides costing slightly cheaper. Just make your standard vulkan army but with a bike captain also.. You'll do amazingly well

Yeah, bike marines are a surprisingly good build that doesn't get a whole lot of attention. They are fast, shooty, and resilient (to a point). You do pay a bit of a premium, but you make up for it it flexibility.

What they are not is CC monsters. Gearing them up for CC runs ALOT of points for something that is still going to lose to dedicated CC stuff. Instead, they should be used intelligently to maximize the advantage of their maneuverability. Not built into 500+ point plasma targets.

Kirasu: Vulkan doesn't run on a bike and plowing more points into a second HQ= less melta goodness ;-)

Problems with biker armies:
Bikes are $15 a pop.

The best buy is the ravenwing set with The bikers and the landspeeder.

Comes with biker base too, sadly, no special weapons other than the Vet segeant combat weapons.
_____________

@jmurph:
True Vulkan doesn't run on a bike and less meltas.
But now you have faster/ more efficient melta delivery systems.

My 7 Cents.

jmurph wrote:What they are not is CC monsters. Gearing them up for CC runs ALOT of points for something that is still going to lose to dedicated CC stuff. Instead, they should be used intelligently to maximize the advantage of their maneuverability. Not built into 500+ point plasma targets.

Take a look at the command squad below, they come in at a staggering 470 points, and get chewed up very quickly. They do, however, provide one important element to a bike army which has won me multiple games, they provide a strong CC unit to counter assault or contest and objective.

HQ:
Captain
w/ Bike, Relic Blade
[165]

Command Squad
- Company Champion
- Lightning Claw
- Lightning Claw, Storm Shield
- Power Fist, Storm Shield
- Apothecary
[305]

This squad is also fairly resilient, with 2 storm shields to place wounds on. On turn 5, when I want to contest an objective, they are great for that role.
Are they the best unit? No. It might be worth dropping the command squad for 6 attack bikes with multi-meltas, or another squad of 8 bikes + 1 attack bike.
However, in the games I have used the commands squad in, they have proven worthwhile every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sanctjud wrote:Problems with biker armies:Bikes are $15 a pop.

Bikes are $8 a pop on ebay if your shop carefully.
Ebay sellers will sell extra riders, so just grab a few extra riders per squad to let you easily swap plasma, melta, or flamers.

I still need about 10 more bikes to finish my collection, so if you can all hold off another week before buying them...

labmouse42 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Each casualty is 'felt'.

In a 1500 point list, you can bring 42 bikes pretty easily. That's more models than many marine army lists I've seen
When your using a bike army, you don't need to spend points on tanks, dreadnoughts, etc... That lets you bring a lot more models.

Can I see your 1500 point list with 42 models please?

@labmouse42:
$8 is better. Though my solution was to do a 'count as' biker army.
The theme is 'chaos SM'....funny right.
Anyway, I've mixed in the normal 'real' bikers with count as bikers in the form WFB Chaos Knights.

5 in a pack is a great deal, 5 count as bikers, wonderful models.
The TL bolter will be a la grey knights wrist mounted, while meltas will be hanging off the saddles.... or somesort of roughrider like weapon on a spear.

It's still WIP, but I'm loving the route I'm taking.
Oh... of the 12 attack bikes, 6 are blood crusher models, with appropriate riders with MM on hand.
____________________

Back on track but not exactly the topic, I would also like to see the 42 model list.

I think it drops off some fists and attack bikes and bumps up more biker squads, not exactly maxed out squads though, and light gear.

I don't know but I think my 1500 is pretty streamlined but at only 37 models.....it's only like 10 ish more models than a pure Deathwing army...prob. w/o a landraider.

My 7 Cents.

Alpharius wrote:Can I see your 1500 point list with 42 models please?

Ah, I made a mistake, I was looking at my 1750 list. With 1500 points, you can get roughly 37 models and be effective.
You could get more by dropping the multimelta attack bikes and melta-guns, but you lose to much effectiveness at that point.

The 42 model list is sound, labmouse 42 might or might not post it here.

It's basically he went for more bodies, while the list I posted went for more (instant killable) wounds.
So I guess it all levels out.

But yea, 1750 vs. 1500....

My 7 Cents.

Do you guys think that two 8 man bike squads and a bike captain are enough bikes to run in a 1850 pt army? Or do you have to really sell out and go all bikes to be effective?

I think at 1500 you can go all out bikes.
But past that you should diversify.

Bikers need the counter attack, the extra bodies that can.....supposedly...... climb to the second floor and beyond.

Some hvy support to provide cover fire as they are primarily a close to mid range hammer.
____________________-

Actually, I'm having trouble moving from 1500 to 1850.

There are many options, but I find there just isn't enough points to get all the options you'd want/need.

I have a list of options, but I've never been happy with any of them.
You know what I would be happy with........obliterators..../sigh.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:I think at 1500 you can go all out bikes.
But past that you should diversify.

Bikers need the counter attack, the extra bodies that can.....supposedly...... climb to the second floor and beyond.

Some hvy support to provide cover fire as they are primarily a close to mid range hammer.
____________________-

Actually, I'm having trouble moving from 1500 to 1850.

There are many options, but I find there just isn't enough points to get all the options you'd want/need.

I have a list of options, but I've never been happy with any of them.
You know what I would be happy with........obliterators..../sigh.

My 7 Cents.

I'm planning on supplementing the bikes with speeders.

See, I go with Fast attack Attack Bikes.
Speeders seem ok for like mech lists or a list with some mech element, but from a Biker 1500 I don't think there's enough Armor saturation.

BUT, i've always been tempted by one Speeder: the typhoon, able to bring more of what the bikers need.

ML's sort of the middle of the line, long range. They are flexible in that they can go long range anti-infantry/horde when they need too adding to the midrange biker bolter barrage.

But they are so expensive, no armor saturation, only AV 10.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:See, I go with Fast attack Attack Bikes.
Speeders seem ok for like mech lists or a list with some mech element, but from a Biker 1500 I don't think there's enough Armor saturation.

BUT, i've always been tempted by one Speeder: the typhoon, able to bring more of what the bikers need.

ML's sort of the middle of the line, long range. They are flexible in that they can go long range anti-infantry/horde when they need too adding to the midrange biker bolter barrage.

But they are so expensive, no armor saturation, only AV 10.

My 7 Cents.

I see we're on the same page. Typhoons are on the list because I love fast moving long range firepower.

My list is really all over the place right now, but I'm going to be trying out bikes and we'll see how it goes.

I've experimented with:

Triple Vindi
Stern in a pod
Triple Dread
Ass termies in a LR varient
As many Ass termies as can fit (9)
Unblinged command squad
16 Repentia +1 Mistriss
2 squads of 10 kitted out sisters
Dropping Hvybolter bikes for 3 Typhoons
Triple whirlwind.
Triple dakka pred.
Another 8 man biker squad.

So far the 9 Ass termies (seemingly they don't fit) have had a decent time. I'm not sure if I'll stick with them, but they offer me two things they do well enough:
1. Counter attack (a bit slow but I don't have to advance towards the opponent 24").
2. Army wide cover save for the first turn.
Layered conga lines is all I have to say.
Cover saves from nothing essentially.

But even then, their inclusion is iffy.
I don't know.... they all seem fine, but I still haven't found anything that directly 'gels' with my list.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:]But past that you should diversify. Actually, I'm having trouble moving from 1500 to 1850..

I'm having the same problem. When you start putting over 40 bikes on the table, they begin to take a lot of tablespace. One of the advantages of a fast army is that they can deliver the necessary firepower in a precise location when required. In essence, you are putting your 1750 army vs. half his 1750 army, and should look like this.


If you throw another 20 or so bikes on the table, its hard to focus your army on one area, which lowers a lot of the value of being a fast army, the opponet does not have to go as far to get to your units.
Once you start to push beyond 1750, Vulcan + TH/SS Terminators in a LR starts to look like a good option as its a great counter assault, and can concentrate your power/points in a smaller area than covering the board.