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I've just ordered up 3 punisher tanks , mostly to lay down a high rate of anti infantry fire. I got to thinking whats the best bang for buck. With a punisher you get 23, strength 5 shots, for 180 points , but if the tank gets hit once it's potentially out of the game. A HB heavy weapons squad is around 60 points, and gives you 9 , strength 5 shots, with some AP. So for 180pts you get 27 shots. Which you can put in cover , though not very maneuverable, and with a 5+ save. A storm trooper squad can give you 20 shots for around the same points. With a better save , AP and movement than the heavies but only strenght 3 , and short range. So which would you choose. I've already gone for three punishers. But I know as soon as they play they will suffer from, "first game syndrome" ,and get toasted . I thought of backing them up with heavy bolters so the punishers draw the fire and the heavy squads clean up, ( well I can dream).

Heavy weapon squads will die to so much firepower that the Leman russ (frontally) is completely immune to. It is also completely immune to standard str4 charges with rear AV11.

A punisher can always put out those 23 shots, on the move whilst the heavy weapons team has to sit-tight all the time to fire. A punisher also takes up about the same (possibly less) space as the HWS so with multiple groups, your starting ti fill up your own DZ making the already horribly effective blast weapons even more effective against HWS.

Against infantry the punisher will consistantly kill a certain number of models, for a triple H.bolter punisher against marines; will kill 3-4 MEQ's. As its AP- you dont need to worry about cover either, its totally irrelevant thus making things simpler. Yes, while a executioner could kill 10+ MEQ per volley, its not hard to imagine two blasts scattering wide & the remaining blast hitting a clump of four, wounding all four but two make cover saves (etc etc). I guess what im saying is that you get a lower consistant damage threshold amount.

It will also averge a consitent (due to the amont of shots) 2-5 glance/pens vs transport-grade vehicles (AV10-11) but with AP- vehicles arent its best target.

Im only telling it how I see it, im not sure if Im an advocate of the Punisher tank. It does look fun for sure.

I agree with Razerous. He's made a bunch of good points, but even if the Punisher wasn't better than the heavy weapon squad, I'd still take it, just because of it's ridiculously unique main weapon.

The main problem with the punisher is the short range. 24" Range allows a lot of units the ability to get into melta range.

I've been thinking about the punisher and the best setup I've come up with is giving it a hull Heavy Bolter and a pintle stubber. It comes to 190 points but it throws down 26 shots total and can always fire at full effect on the move. I think that the heavy bolter sponsons are a little over priced for what you get and the fact that you lose out on them when you move.

Cheers
~Volkan


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also my beef with Heavy Weapon Squads is that a lone multilaser can potentially wipe the squad. They seem really fragile and if you give them more than mortars or auto cannons they get fairly expensive.
Storm troopers are interesting. They bring back the musings of the old drop guard and are actually pretty reliable when deep striking. But with a starting cost of 85 points for Troopers and specials adding to the cost they rank in around 20 points a model in most cases. Also even if it is ap3 strength 3 is kind of underwhelming. They are nifty but I'm not sure how good they are in proportion to their cost.

Cheers
~Volkan

My punisher tho pricy is quite effective with 3 heavy bolters and pask. mmmm 29 s5 shots hitting on 3s, and a tip for construction, dont glue the main guns or the hull gun in tehy wedge in pretty good after base coating so it leaves you options and easy weapon destroyed representations. dont forget with lumbering a punisher can move 6 and fire its gattling gun and any heavy bolters in its hull. so for an extra 20 points it might be worth putting the sponsons on. They magnatise fairly easy too.

Thanks for the replies dakkites. As I write the punishers lead. I was thinking of no sponsons on my 3 tanks. I'm trying to make them as cheap as possible. Squadron rules can make tanks quite vulnerable. Any kind of glancing or penetrating hit and at the least they don't fire the next turn. Still like shelegelah said its a unique weapon. If I can get off 60 shots with it at my usual opponents, and take out a whole squad of fire warriors or necrons, it will be worth it.

Well as I stated before they can keep keep moving at combat speed all game and always be firing all weapons that are in range if you don't take sponsons. With a main gun that has 24" I think this is probably the way to go.

The only reason I suggested the pintle stubber is because its a defensive weapon that shares many properties with the Punisher's other weapons. Its going to give up saves, it matches range with the heavy bolter, adds three more shots and is only 1 str less. Doesn't seem too bad for 10 points.

Looking at the numbers it looks like 3 Punishers with Hull Heavy Bolters will on average kill about 4 necrons after WWB rolls are made. Although I could be wrong.

Cheers
~Volkan

I just did some math myself out of curiosity and it seems, that three Punisher gatling cannons will kill exactly 12 fire warriors on average. That's how it's done! And it get's really funny against AV10 vehicle squadrons like land speeders or vypers. Three Punishers will score 5 glances and 5 pens on a squadron!

Yeah, my vote is definitely with the Punishers. So many shots, so well protected by AV14...good stuff.

Witzkatz wrote:I just did some math myself out of curiosity and it seems, that three Punisher gatling cannons will kill exactly 12 fire warriors on average. That's how it's done! And it get's really funny against AV10 vehicle squadrons like land speeders or vypers. Three Punishers will score 5 glances and 5 pens on a squadron!

Yeah, my vote is definitely with the Punishers. So many shots, so well protected by AV14...good stuff.

punisher gattling cannons are ap- which are at -1 on the damage table, so while tehy can wreck a vehicle its still goning to require a 6 and i dont even want to think what a glancing hit would do at -3

Ah, my fault, forgot about that. Well, it's a shame - otherwise they would make nice AV10 killers. That way, three Punishers have only a chance of 83% of wrecking a single AV10 vehicle. Oh well, I guess they should really be pointed at infantry.

83% isnt bad id still take the chance at AV 10. but where they shine is termie poping, more dice the oponent has to roll the more chances they have to fail. by my calculation with 60 shots 30 hit 24 wound and 4 die not too shabby.

Still my prefered termie popping method is lasguns. for a 200 point termie squad i can get 35 lasguns so thats 70 shots rapid firing, or 105 if i pass my FRFSRF, 53 will hit, probly about 20 wound, 2 or 3 dead not too bad for an equal points value.

Punisher is epic. On paper I hate the AP - but then I see 15 S5 shots. Whats not to love? Way tougher than a HWS too. Go for heaps of them. Or Executioners. Heck any Russ is awesome.

Its good to see you all have faith in AV14. I've been against Tau player who likes to field at least 6 broadsides maxed out. He plants them in heavy cover, and pushes out 6 strength 10 twin linked shots per turn. He also has an uncanny ability to roll high on damage strength. Thats not mentioning the Hammerhead and melta armed stealth team and piranhas. I remember him toasting 2 russes a hell hound and 2 chimeras on turn one. I used to have to field HWS or dev squads for the SM. No tanks.

Well, Tau DO have some of the hardest ranged AT weaponry there is in the game and if he builds his army in that direction... I mean, seems just like a bad matchup, he probably would have problems with a green tide then.
And, I mean, there is nothing better than AV14 apart from Titans. You can only improve it with camo-netting and placing it in cover. It will hold against many, many attacks by other weapons, TL Railguns are just the best thing against it. So, therefore, I have faith in AV14.


(I think what I'm trying to say is, if this would be about HWS, someone would complain that they die so easily to heavy flamers (or even worse, inferno cannons), or to S6+ barrage weapons. Everything has its nemesis somewhere.)

Im not the most math hammery kinda guy, but im sure 3 naked LRBT would out pace 3 Punishers easily with its battle cannon. Also its range is 6'. And S8, and AP3, and gets Ordance pen dice rolls. And its cheaper.

Gkocknal wrote:
Im not the most math hammery kinda guy, but im sure 3 naked LRBT would out pace 3 Punishers easily with its battle cannon. Also its range is 6'. And S8, and AP3, and gets Ordance pen dice rolls. And its cheaper.

I like the Battle tank. Against larger squads of 3+ saves or less (or 2+ wound T4 models) its probably a better choice. The punisher doesn't have to factor in things like cover saves, model spacing, squad number. You get 20 str 5 shots without the hull weapon or sponsons. The target will get any saves available. You can force more saves than there are models.

5 terminators means a battle cannon will only get 5 hits at best, with the big bases probably less. The punisher will still average 10 hits. Averages about 6.67 wounds. Termies are going to get saves against both.

I see the Punisher working well with a psyker battle squad as it shouldn't have too much of a problem forcing a morale check on most targets.
Cheers
~Volkan

Quite so, the more wounds you can inflict on something the more saves it can fail, thats the guard philosophy.

Vodski, if you can find/convert some battlecannon barrels, it owuld be worth magnetising the turret weapons (and sponsons too if you're really keen) to allow weapon swaps. I can definitely see the Punishers being lots of fun against certain opponents (hordes especially), but againt other opponents the standard Russ battlecannon is better and cheaper.

Clang wrote:Vodski, if you can find/convert some battlecannon barrels, it owuld be worth magnetising the turret weapons (and sponsons too if you're really keen) to allow weapon swaps. I can definitely see the Punishers being lots of fun against certain opponents (hordes especially), but againt other opponents the standard Russ battlecannon is better and cheaper.

I started doing that with my valk/detta and then a hellhound squadron. My only worry is I will need extra boxes for all the bits

Theres enough room under the tank to fit em all.

And whoops! Punishers are actually Heavy 20.....wait a second.....HEAVY 20!?

WHY THE HECK DID THEY EVEN ALLOW THIS THREAD!! HEAVY 20!!! S5!!!!

WHY HAVE WE ALL NOT ALREADY GOT 10!?!?!

And with 3 heavy bolters....

THATS 29 S5 SHOTS PER TURN!!! HOW IS THIS DISCUSSION STILL GOING!?!?

Cos pies plates S8 AP3 is kick ass.

It all depends on if your getting everything else done, thats needing to be done, elsewhere in the list and give the duty of anti-infantry to the punisher slot.

Edit: By way of the poll, the punisher is winning.

Madgod wrote:And whoops! Punishers are actually Heavy 20.....wait a second.....HEAVY 20!?

WHY THE HECK DID THEY EVEN ALLOW THIS THREAD!! HEAVY 20!!! S5!!!!

WHY HAVE WE ALL NOT ALREADY GOT 10!?!?!

And with 3 heavy bolters....

THATS 29 S5 SHOTS PER TURN!!! HOW IS THIS DISCUSSION STILL GOING!?!?

Because when you do the cost/effectiveness math its not all that wonderful.

Even though the Punisher seems like an anti-horde weapon, it actually is best firing on single-models/elite infantry. A Pask-punisher is really good against MCs. Against T6 MCs (Nurgle Princes, Bloodthirsters, Hive Tyrants, etc.), a Pask Punisher should put out about 10-11 wounds (assuming you can fire everything), which is death if they are even a little bit unlucky with their saves. T5 MCs are basically dead once you point it at them (14.5 wounds to save, on average).

What Gully said. That lash whip equipped Daemon Prince will have to think twice about jumping in front of the Punisher...

Gully Foyle wrote:Even though the Punisher seems like an anti-horde weapon, it actually is best firing on single-models/elite infantry. A Pask-punisher is really good against MCs. Against T6 MCs (Nurgle Princes, Bloodthirsters, Hive Tyrants, etc.), a Pask Punisher should put out about 10-11 wounds (assuming you can fire everything), which is death if they are even a little bit unlucky with their saves. T5 MCs are basically dead once you point it at them (14.5 wounds to save, on average).

Yes, the punisher actually kills more points/shot against marines than it does against orks. Also, it can often force wounds on important equipment/upgrade characters/etc against small elite units, whereas against hordes the player will just remove the chumps.

willydstyle wrote:

Madgod wrote:And whoops! Punishers are actually Heavy 20.....wait a second.....HEAVY 20!?

WHY THE HECK DID THEY EVEN ALLOW THIS THREAD!! HEAVY 20!!! S5!!!!

WHY HAVE WE ALL NOT ALREADY GOT 10!?!?!

And with 3 heavy bolters....

THATS 29 S5 SHOTS PER TURN!!! HOW IS THIS DISCUSSION STILL GOING!?!?

Because when you do the cost/effectiveness math its not all that wonderful.

How so? 200pts for 29 S 5 shots? Thats like 7 points per shot, assuming it fires once in the game (incidentally if it fires 3 times then its closer to 2 points per shot) . The same shots in heavy weapons teams would cost 250pts and not be immune to anything less than S8 most of the time. I don't see what the issue is though given the vanilla Russ is cool too. But going with the poll Punisher is where it's at for the OP.

I agree, if the punisher removes a 200 pt unit, tank or MC fisrt turn it has made its points and every other turn is a bonus.