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Alright fellow Dakkites, this is a question that always intriged me. What army list has the most magic potential and defence, so in a 2250 sized toury list, building up nothing but magic, how many dice can you get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH include points.

To my knowledge, Orcs are pretty high on the list.

At any point level (though preferably 1000pts+) you can fit a Mork's Spirit Totem on Big 'Uns, Black Orcs, or a Battle Standard Bearer for +50pts. This lil' wonder - if you use it right - gives a constant +3 to your Dispel Dice pool (it adds your Rank Bonus to the pool-generated Dispel Dice).

Along with this, you can take both the Common Staff of Sorcery (for +1 to Dispel Rolls), Scrolls may still be bought (on a very cheap Scroll-caddy Goblin Shaman that - for only 50pts - adds +1 Dispel Dice in addition to scroll potential) and you can - if desperate - take the Sneaky Stealin' Staff to both drop your enemy by one power die and increase your dispel total by one. Lastly, you have a Warboss that can be a Level 2 Wizard.

So what does this mean? If you tooled yourself specifically for this (for some reason), your army could have at 2000 points:

10 Dispel Dice
-1 to the Enemy's Power Die Pool
+1 to Dispel Attempts
2 Scrolls for those spells you dont feel like risking

This is one of the better Anti-Magic Armies to my knowledge. I'm sure there's at least one other army (Tzeentch Daemons?) who can get better, but it's still far up there. The sacrifice here is you've give up all your Hero slots for low-level Goblin Shamans, and your Warboss is flying around on a 3 Attack Large-Target Model. And is Stupid.

Usually if I want to counter magic in my Orc & Goblin Army I'll just take the Spirit Totem in a unit of Big 'Uns (Which is at a minimal over 230pts for no extra equipment, the upgrade to Big 'Un, Standard, and buying the banner), alongside one or two (depending on how much magic I intend to face) Orc Shamans (more expensive than Goblins, but also more durable and better / easier to cast Level 1 spells).

More often than not, the Shaman will have a Staff of Sorcery. This gives a solid 6 Dispel Dice to start the game off with (Add this to the +1 to Dispel, and we're speaking enough oomph at under 2K Points to shut out most Magic Phases, and over 2K points enough to cancel the worst of spells for non-Magic Complete armies).

EDIT: Most magic? Well, if trying to focus completely on Magic, replace the Warboss with a Great Shaman on a Monstrous Mount. Adds one more to the Dispel Pool, and if you bump everything to level 2 for the Heros / the Lord to level 4 you've got a base then of 12 Power Dice. Not much, but you can take a good two bound items (A Horn for +1 to Army Leadership until the end of the turn, and -1 to Enemy Leadership for just as long) and Nibbla's Ring (for a bound 'Eadbutt spell). Furthermore, your army does get +1 Power Die if any Orc units 20-or-bigger are in combat at the start of the magic phase, and if you take the Idol of Mork you can also gain an additional +1 Power Die for any Orc Units 20+ in combat within 24" of the bearer. Or in other words, 12 Power Dice, 2 Bound Spells (one at Level 3, another Level 5), and potential for many more dice once you're stuck-in.

Nice try @2250 Dark elves can get 29 without power stones if everything goes right and they all cast Power of Darkness for a net gain of 3 PD each.

Supreme Sorceress Lvl4 -Sacrificial Dagger + PoD=11
Sorceress Lvl2 -darkstar cloak +PoD=6
Sorceress Lvl2 -Pod=5
Sorceress Lvl2 -Pod=5
Pool=2

Loaded up with 8 power stones and the number of power dice kicks up to 45 for one turn. You only get 7 dispel dice but you could easily switch out some power stones for scrolls if you want the total offense/defense package.

No other list comes close to what Dark Elves can do

skaven for my money.

pretty standard magic heavy i´d run 13 casting (grey seer on bell, 2 engineers) and 6 dispelling with 2/3 scrolls. usually i´d take 10 - 12 warpstone tokens as well. there is also a bound spell in there (every turn) which does D6 S5 wounds as a magic missile. That is a balanced magic heavy skaven army. Just can´t bring myself to not have the total casting dice as 13 (very skaven)

but if i wanted to cheese out on magic as the sole focus the focus that is that is 15 standard casting and 7 dispelling. there would be a bound spell in there (every turn) and 22 warpstone tokens. thats with taking a standard grey seer rather than thanquil. If you are able to use them all in one turn that is 37 casting in a turn.

regarding the dark elf post you need to use 2 dice to get power of darkness off (1 dice is easy to dispel and may not even get the spell off). It is not 3 free casting dice. meaning power of darkness is +1 casting dice (on average) rather than +3 which equates to 16 standard casting dice total not 27. total maximum effective casting in one turn on average would be 32. range is 28 - 36.

That being said all the rats would probably be dead from eating that many warpstone tokens and that much warp lightning.

Bat Manuel wrote:
No other list comes close to what Dark Elves can do

Ha...ha... Daemons... Horrors... Ha...ha...

Dwarves for dispell dise -no doubt about it.
2250 alows you 1 lord 3 heroes:

Runelord , 3 runes of balance

Runesmith, rune of balance

2 more Runesmiths

This would generate 18 dispel dice, 4 of which come from your opponents power pool. Allow me to explain. 2 for normal allowance, 2 for being dwarfs 2 from having a runelord, 3 from having three runesmiths, 5 from the runesmith/lord 'rune lore' ability, 4 from the runes of balance (theese come from your opponents power pool). Due to the rune rules i cant include any more Runes of Balance however runes of warding (magical resistance (1)) or runes off spelbreaking or spelleating may be takes (works like a dispell scroll, spell eater destroys a spell on 4+ when used)

leighr3029 wrote:
regarding the dark elf post you need to use 2 dice to get power of darkness off (1 dice is easy to dispel and may not even get the spell off). It is not 3 free casting dice. meaning power of darkness is +1 casting dice (on average) rather than +3 which equates to 16 standard casting dice total not 27. total maximum effective casting in one turn on average would be 32. range is 28 - 36.

That was a max number, not an average

Tzeentch Demons @ 2250pts:

Lord of Change w/ power vortex & lvl4 = 565pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts

26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts

=2248pts, 28pd and 15dd, do I win ?

P.M wrote:Tzeentch Demons @ 2250pts:

Lord of Change w/ power vortex & lvl4 = 565pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts

26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts

=2248pts, 28pd and 15dd, do I win ?

That's an army I could actually see someone using.

Tzeentch's guide to making friends

Another reason Daemons gets the silly army book award.

Lets see lizzies now

Slann, 4 dice +1 dice per spell so say 2 on average,
SKink Priest Lvl 2 on Steg with Engine of Gods, = 3
SKink Priest Lvl 2 on Steg with Engine of Gods, = 3
SKink Priest Lvl 2 on Steg with Engine of Gods, = 3
Base Pool=2
Total without any equipment, 17 power dice, 15 Dispell Dice, the banner that makes each wizard in line of site role stupidity every turn, my engines give -1 to any school of magic, comulite, and my oppenents rolls of 6 on power dice are discarded, and that magic item that takes my miscast and transfers it onto an enemy spell caster letting them take it instead. ANd this is without special characters.

Bat Manuel wrote:

P.M wrote:Tzeentch Demons @ 2250pts:

Lord of Change w/ power vortex & lvl4 = 565pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts

26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts

=2248pts, 28pd and 15dd, do I win ?

That's an army I could actually see someone using.

Tzeentch's guide to making friends

Sadly that is an army I have seen used, and was going to be at a tourney but the TO banned it.

Alright, I am rejoining the WHFB ranks and have yet to play the new VC or Daemon army books, is the daemons as bad as they say for overpowered.

Alright, I am rejoining the WHFB ranks and have yet to play the new VC or Daemon army books, is the daemons as bad as they say for overpowered.

There is plenty of threads talking about the unbalance of the daemon book. This is a my armies dice pool is bigger than yours thread.

DE if they get their 1 dice power of darkness off every turn, with a lvl 4 sac dagger thrown in have the highest volume of dice period. It's not the most reliable number of dice, but it is the highest potential. Tzeentch Daemons have the highest number of reliably useful dice. VC can bring quit a few, but their power is one dicing the raise spells. Yippee I get more crappy guys, if my opponent can't kill them, I win. (sorry, my personal opinion is they are good, but not OP like some people think).

If it was a matter of 1 wizard using as many dice as possible without power stones, and not caring how they were used, the DE win I believe. 6 dice starting, roll 1 for PoD, and sac a guy for PoD, generate 4 dice, so 9 dice now. If you were somehow able to cast all of the spells known, you get 4 more sac dagger uses, bringing your useful dice total to 13. Add in 3 power stones, and you could have a 19 dice turn with 1 wizard. I'm betting at least one miscast with that lol.

If we talk about just the strongest magic defense, dwarfs can get a stupid number of DD and MR units on the table. I don't know enough about min maxing that book for that purpose, I would like to see what they could do fully maxed out.

Vampires can get 17 PD (Master of the Black Arts on 4 vampires) and 7 PD. In a realistic, competitive list they can easily pull in 12-14. Throw in a black pariapt and you get +1 in both phases.

Eldar Own wrote:Dwarves for dispell dise -no doubt about it.
2250 alows you 1 lord 3 heroes:

Runelord , 3 runes of balance

Runesmith, rune of balance

2 more Runesmiths

There's a couple things wrong here. You can't take all four characters as the anvil reduces your hero selections by one. So, drop a runesmith. Furthermore, the Rune of Balance is a Master Rune which means it can only be taken once per army. This will cut you down to 9 DD (-1 to enemy power dice) but free up a little room for other anti-magic. Won't help with the OP's challenge, though...

RZ

P.M wrote:Tzeentch Demons @ 2250pts:

Lord of Change w/ power vortex & lvl4 = 565pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts
Herald of Tz w/ power vortex = 145pts

26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts
26 Pink horrors = 312pts

=2248pts, 28pd and 15dd, do I win ?

You win a big kick in the junk if you play this I've played against it, and in its 8x10 units of horror's mode, and I consider it awful. Its so 1 dimensional, I would love to sit and watch a high elves player with the end magic phase item run into this, and then destroy it as the dragon princes ride in. Of course, laws of averages and ward saves, factor in unfortunately....

This is a list I love seeing banded. I don't care what the argument, its unbalanced, unfriendly, and not a list for 1 off or tournaments. A variation i've seen that is fair. Is the 2x26 horrors, with 2 heralds, that's more than enough for magic.

however: being the point was the MAX number of power/dispel: you win

Beast of Chaos

Great Bray-Shaman (level 4)
3x Bray-Shaman (level 2)
16x Tusgor Chariot with Mark of Tzeentch

2225pts

That's 28 power dice baby. Add one Power Stone and you top the demons mentioned before.

Oh but when you really optimise the Deamons you'll get:

4x Tzeentch Herald with Power Vortex
8x 16 Horror
1x 11 Horror

That's 31 PD and 15 DD. Talk about overkill. Did I win?

So Tzeentch is just 4 characters and 140 Horrors?

At current GW prices ($4.4 per Horror), that's $600 in Horrors alone...

If GW sold them as plastics like Daemonettes & Bloodletters, it's still $300 in Horrors.

Still, on deep discount, $200+ for "themed" single-Power / single-Mark Daemon army isn't so bad.

My army is so weak magically. I get 3 DD and 3 PD. If I'm not in combat by Turn 2, I'm dead agianst a magic heavy opponent. In my experience Daemons are really stacked. I haven't played against the new VC list yet, but I've heard they're brutal.

High Elves can be pretty good, take Teclis and 3 level 2 Mages, Banner of Sorcery, Jewel of Dusk, thats 13 + 2d3, plus Power Stones

And Dispel dice you have 7 base, plus the Annulian Crystal to make 8 and minus 1 PD for your opponent. But even better than the number of dice is the combination of +1 to dispel for being a High Elf, and Drain Magic, making them possibly the best defensive magic army out there.

How about:

Lord of Change (lv4, Power Vortex) - 565
3x Herald of Tzeentch (Master of Sorcery) - 3*140
6x 16 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 6*192

Total Points: 2137 (cant fit in another Horror unit unfortunately, would need 7 more points)

Maximum amount of PD in a Magic Phase = 37
Base Power Pool = 2
Lord of Change = 8 (Boon of Tzeentch cast on 1 dice generating 4 dice)
3 * Herald of Tzeentch = 15 (Boon of Tzeentch cast on 1 dice generating 4 dice for every Herald)
6 * Pink Horrors of Tzeentch = 12

Obviously, one would have to be extremely lucky to be succesful on every Boon of Tzeentch casting and generating the maximum amount of PD with each of those castings.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So Tzeentch is just 4 characters and 140 Horrors?

At current GW prices ($4.4 per Horror), that's $600 in Horrors alone...

If GW sold them as plastics like Daemonettes & Bloodletters, it's still $300 in Horrors.

Still, on deep discount, $200+ for "themed" single-Power / single-Mark Daemon army isn't so bad.

Its not. Most people who build lots of horrors make them out of ghoul's without heads. That $22 for 10. Heralds can be made out of anything... I use old Chaos Mortals characters for mine. I build a tournment calibre list for under $350.

Khorne Herald x2: Belakor (direct ordered x mos ago)
Herald of Tzeentch x2, old Chaos Mortal for cheap in a trade, i use 1 in my list now.
3x10 Horrors: headless ghoulds
5 furies: bought 10, trade 5 for parts
20 blood letters: 2 boxes, $44
10 steeds of slaanesh (glade riders with hoods, 1 box+parts from the furies trade)
10 flesh hounds, i used chaos hounds for $22 for 10.
3 blood crushers; i used doombulls $60
4 flamers, these were waywatchers painted up on fire.

Someone at my local store plays a list almost identical to that Tzeentch list, except he runs Kairos and the Scribes in his.

Have I been playing dwarfs wrong? I didn't think the rune lore ability gave you double the dispel dice, I thought it just let your runesmith/lord generate dispel dice like wizards. Or am I wrong and you would get 2 for runelord 3 for 3 runesmiths and 5 more for the rune lore ability like Eldar Own says. I think I would actually change out a runesmith and use a BSB with MR of Valaya ( +2 to dispel attempt and remains in play spells automatically dispelled within 12" of banner.) Also use a MR of spellbinding adding another +1 to attempts. That is like having an extra dispel dice for every attempt.

dwarfs = 4
runelord = 2
MR of balance = -1 PP and + 1 DD
runesmith = 1
spellbinding = +1 attempt
runesmith = 1
2x spellbreaking = 2x dispel scrolls
thane bsb = +2 to attempts and auto dispel to all remains in play spells within 12"
total = 9 dd +3 to attempts and 2 dispel scrolls actually could add 4 more spellbreaking runes to runelord
not bad but nothing compared to a lot of these new army books (imo)

Eldar Own got a lot of details wrong on how the Dwarf runes and Runelore work, so I'd discount that.

You look to be correct about everything. However, note that you couldn't add 4 spellbreakers to your Runelord- he can only have three total runes on his runic talisman.

RZ

Thanks. That 4 spellbreakin runes was an afterthought (and not a very good one LOL) and something was nagging at me even when i was typing it.