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Terminators and Veteran Sergeants get two wounds each. But NOT Honourguard or Sternguard, except their respective Veterans. The only problem is that all of a sudden Terminators are REALLY GOOD so they get +5 points each, which they probably should be anyway. Or Sternguard, Honourguard and Vanguard could get it too with a +5 points increase or so, maybe less for Sternguard. Veterans stay the same since Space Marines could probably use a small buff anyway, especially if there is a new MEQ and Mech hunting Tyranid book coming soon.

I think Terminators need the extra +5 points because otherwise the HQ Characters are not as good. Look at Lysander, for example

No Why cuz for 5 pts that would be making them oblitz at around 20-30 points cheaper that pwn at close combat with 3+ invuls or rerolls to wound shooty ones well thats breaking them meaning the other player has to pump in twice as many shots to get the same results and that already enough at the moment.

Theres a thing called a Land raider use it to get your terminators in close combat without getting them killed.

For an extra wound in the 3rd Edition Chaos Codex it cost like 30pts. There is no WAY termies should get another wound for 5 points. YOu marine players oughta try playin CSM for a while if you really wanna know about nerfed!

And Space Marines do NOT need a buff. Take your free Multi-Meltas and go elsewhere sir!

WTH is all I can say

W2 on Vet Sergeants? Why?

Terminators should be T4(5) W2, at 45 points a piece, but that's it.

No Why cuz for 5 pts that would be making them oblitz at around 20-30 points cheaper that pwn at close combat with 3+ invuls or rerolls to wound

1. Where does Tacobake's proposal include free Plasma Cannons and Lascannons for the Terminators?
2. Where does it say they get 3+ Invuls, beyond the standard Storm Shields.
3. Where does it say they get re-rolls to wound, beyond Lightning Claws?

The answer to all of these questions is "It doesn't", so stop knee-jerking.

with two wounds, I can see storm shields going down to a 4++. 2 wounds, 2+/3++ is damn good for 45pts.

Polonius wrote:with two wounds, I can see storm shields going down to a 4++. 2 wounds, 2+/3++ is damn good for 45pts.

Or an extra 5/10 points for a storm shield.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Polonius wrote:with two wounds, I can see storm shields going down to a 4++. 2 wounds, 2+/3++ is damn good for 45pts.

Or an extra 5/10 points for a storm shield.

It's likely that any serious attempt to fix terminators will require if not a ground up re-write, at least a review of nearly every cost. Keeping everything as is, I'd go with the following prices:

Basic terminators: 35pts, Heavy Flamer is free, AC is 30, Cyclone is 25.
Assault terminators:35pts with lightning claws, 40 with TH/SS.

Polonius wrote:with two wounds, I can see storm shields going down to a 4++. 2 wounds, 2+/3++ is damn good for 45pts.

In our rules Storm Shields provide a 4+ Invul Save, but only in Close Combat. They do count as an Additional CCW though, which is a nice bonus.

Polonius wrote:Basic terminators: 35pts, Heavy Flamer is free, AC is 30, Cyclone is 25.
Assault terminators:35pts with lightning claws, 40 with TH/SS.

Why more for the AC than the Cyclone? It got worst in 5th Ed.

Our rules, which do vary with some things here and there, Terminators are:

Terminator Squad (0-1 per 1000 Points or part-thereof)
WS4 BS4 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/5+(I)
45 Points Per Model

Type: Heavy Infantry (cannot run, D6 pursue rather than 2D6)

Squad: Sergeant (WS5 BS5) + 4-9 Terminators

Weapons: Sergeant has a Stormbolter (R36 S4 AP5 Assault 2/Twin-Linked[/i]) + Power Weapon, Terminators have Storm Bolter + Power Fist.

Options: Up to two models may exchange their Stormbolters for Heavy Flamer (R Template/12" S5 AP5 Assault 1) +5 points, Cyclone (R48 S8 AP3 Heavy 2/Guided ([i]always hits on a 3+ or better) -OR- R48 S4 AP6 Heavy 2/Blast/Guided) +15 Points, Assault Cannon (R24 S6 AP4 Heavy 4/High Impact (-1Sv)/Reaping (To Wound of 6 = AP1) - Cyclone comes with a Storm Bolter just to keep things WYSIWYG.

Any model can have a Chainfist at +5 points, replacing their HTH weapon.

Character: The Terminator Sergeant has access to the Space Marine Armoury.

Veterans: May choose Veteran Skills ranging from cheap ones at +1 point per model (Move Thought Cover, Night Vision) to expensive ones at +3 points per model (Tank Hunters, Furious Charge).

Special Rules:
Teleportation: Terminators may Teleport in any mission that uses the Deep Strike/Teleportation special rules.
Stable Platform: May shoot and charge different targets. No penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons. No penalties for shooting and charging in the same turn.
ATSKNF: Must be reduced to below 25% to not be Scoring, may regroup beneath 50%.
True Grit: Affects Stormbolters, not other weapons.

Assault Terminator Squad (0-1 per 1000 Points or part-thereof)
WS4 BS4 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/5+(I)
45 Points Per Model

Type: Heavy Infantry (cannot run, D6 pursue rather than 2D6)

Squad: Sergeant (WS5 BS5) + 4-9 Terminators

Weapons: A pair of Lightning Claws or a Thunder Hammer (can act as Power Weapon or Power Fist, but not both in the same turn) + Storm Shield (4+(I) save & extra CCW).

Options: Up to two models may exchange their weapons for a Heavy Flamer (R Template/12" S5 AP5 Assault 1) and Power Fist for +5 points, Heavy Flamer & Chainfist for +10 Points or a Stormbolter + Chainfist for +5 Points.

Character: The Terminator Sergeant has access to the Space Marine Armoury.

Veterans: May choose Veteran Skills ranging from cheap ones at +1 point per model (Move Thought Cover, Night Vision) to expensive ones at +3 points per model (Tank Hunters, Furious Charge).

Special Rules:
Teleportation: Terminators may Teleport in any mission that uses the Deep Strike/Teleportation special rules.
Stable Platform: May shoot and charge different targets. No penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons. No penalties for shooting and charging in the same turn.
ATSKNF: Must be reduced to below 25% to not be Scoring, may regroup beneath 50%.
True Grit: Affects Stormbolters, not other weapons.

Two wounds on a vet gives it two wounds for the Power Fist, same as a Nob.

What it comes down to, Terminators are just not that great. I mean SURE they have Power Fists, but defensively they do not really compete with Tac squads. Their only real defence is against AP3 weaponry ... and if they have AP3 weapons they can probably shoot them at (other squads of) 3+ MEQ anyway.

T4(5) is the preferred option but we have already discussed that to death.

I'm not sure why Veteran Sergeants would need 2 wounds. Nobs are physically a different class of ork, and exarchs are flying rodent gak from being in their aspect for so long. Vet Sarges are closer to regular marines, though.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm not sure why Veteran Sergeants would need 2 wounds. Nobs are physically a different class of ork, and exarchs are flying rodent gak from being in their aspect for so long. Vet Sarges are closer to regular marines, though.

Yeah, Vet sarges are just skilled Marines. Nobz are bigger and stronger Orks, not veteran Boyz (which would be either Skarboyz or 'Ard Boyz).

Im going to just say it.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with terminators as they are.

Terms should really be T 5, I'm willing to pay for it +5 points. But really just give us one term sqaud with the mixed assault and range weapons. That will solve all my problems. Oblitz have 2 wounds for 75 points and inv saves and whever wep they want. Ether nerf the obliz or up the terms its that simple. Games Workshop isnt in the habbit of giving the rines any cheese though.

I think that the Vanguards need to come with jump packs and have WS 5, Sternguard BS 5, and same for respective classes of Termies. I think more important than the Termies is the fact that the Chaplain and Librarian were really taken down in their strength. They should be real HQ and not just support. Just my thoughts....

I don't know why I chose the marines. Maybe because they look cool. They are probably the least cheesy race. Sure you can make your army to be pretty multi role which makes them a great tournemnt army - but if your playing against your friends and they know what your facing it's almost impossible to win. I think most marine players are willing to pay more points to get a basic troop that is "actually" elite. Lets compare what other armies get for the 15-18 point range and I promise marines come up lacking everytime. 3+ save, yeah thats nice - 4 Ws but I cant even take close combat weapons. The base marine at its price needs to get ether +1A +1T or the standard marine bolter needs the be (assault 1 range 24/ heavy 2 range 24.)

I'm with blaktoof, Terminators being broken is news to me. I almost always run a squad of ten with two assault cannons and they always, always, always shape the whole game and ruin the enemy's day, with no Landraider.

I can't believe how good they are!!

RinesofGlory wrote:I don't know why I chose the marines. Maybe because they look cool. They are probably the least cheesy race. Sure you can make your army to be pretty multi role which makes them a great tournemnt army - but if your playing against your friends and they know what your facing it's almost impossible to win. I think most marine players are willing to pay more points to get a basic troop that is "actually" elite. Lets compare what other armies get for the 15-18 point range and I promise marines come up lacking everytime. 3+ save, yeah thats nice - 4 Ws but I cant even take close combat weapons. The base marine at its price needs to get ether +1A +1T or the standard marine bolter needs the be (assault 1 range 24/ heavy 2 range 24.)

It's about 16 points for a Space Marine. For that they get a free heavy weapon, Combat Tactics, And They Shall Know No Fear, a good statline all around, a good basic weapon, access to a special weapon, access to cheap transports (which can also have additional shooting capability), and power armor. Tactical marines aren't killers, but they're not bad. Pity the people stuck with Necron Warriors, Firewarriors, Gaunts, or Gray Knights and Stormtroopers instead.

If your friends are tooling up to kill Space Marines, I'd talk to them about it. Playing a power armored army is pretty difficult when people know that they're up against it. I'd see if they'd be willing to use lists built to take all comers.