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Ok so first off I'v honestly read and reread the rulebook trying to sort this whole thing out.

Now let me begin, this ist so much of a quick and easy question, more of a "i'm totally frickin lost and would like some in depth explaination"

Ok so I play mech guard. I'm shooting infantry behind a baracade, a small baracade. Is there a point where my vehicle simply sees over the baracade? because true line of sight at a certain distance back, from an elevated view (my turret) tells me that the unit is not blocked. Now from a birds eye view I am shooting over the cover. I'm about 12 inches away.

Feel free to just explain in depth how cover saves work for vehicles.

Also.

As I read it. Just because a model can see my side facing, doest mean he can shoot at it? It goes by the arch of my vehicle. So if a model it very far away and it on the edge of my front arch, but can clearly see my entire side armor, he is shooting at my front armor correct?

Thanks in advance guys.

If you can draw an uninterupted line from the end of the gun barrel to the target then you have a line of sight. This can be difficult if you have a basilisk with the gun glued in place
Barricades don't really block line of sight anyway, like a hill would, instead they provide a cover save as the enemy troops would be shooting over the barricade.

I'm not very good at vehicle facings, but as far as I understand it, you shoot at the armour side that you can see most clearly - so if you can only see the side armour at an oblique angle then you can't shoot at it.

Grim.Badger wrote:If you can draw an uninterupted line from the end of the gun barrel to the target...

...with the weapon pointing at the target.

If the weapon doesn't turn, you just draw LOS from the mount, not the end of the barrel.

Yeah I'm not worried about being able to shoot at them, I want to know how do I know if they get a cover save?

If they're partially obscured, then they get a cover save.

1) You get a cover save from barricades/walls if your [edit] 50% of your models models are obscured. \You can fire over barricades without it obscuring LoS. Looks like i had the two rules confused.

In your situation, the models would probably receive a cover save if the were anywhere between 0-6" behind the wall (depending on the height of your turret of course).


2) You must shoot at the front of the tank if you are in its front arc. You may not normally shoot at its side facing if you are in the front arc and can see both the front and sides facing.
You MAY shoot at the side facing if you are in the front arc, in the (rare) condition that you cannot see any of the front facing, in which case you confer a 3+ cover save to the target.

Trasvi wrote: 1) You get a cover save from barricades/walls if your models are physically touching the barricade. Otherwise, you get a cover save from anything on the board if it obscures LoS to any part of the target's body.

In your situation, the models would probably receive a cover save if the were anywhere between 0-6" behind the wall (depending on the height of your turret of course).


2) You must shoot at the front of the tank if you are in its front arc. You may not normally shoot at its side facing if you are in the front arc and can see both the front and sides facing.
You MAY shoot at the side facing if you are in the front arc, in the (rare) condition that you cannot see any of the front facing, in which case you confer a 3+ cover save to the target.

basically thats it. Just like defensive lines in PS, if your behind a barricade, you get a save, even if your LOS is uninterrupted. You think those guys will stand behind a barricade and NOT duck? lol

Trasvi wrote: 1) You get a cover save from barricades/walls if your models are physically touching the barricade.

I don't think i've read a rule stating as much in the BRB. I may be wrong. Of course if your models are behind a barricade/wall, you can be fairly certain they're going to be at least partially obscured by LoS.

The rule is that if your models are touching a barricade, you get a cover save, and enemy models don't count that barricade as cover if the touching unit fires.

So there's a rule about touching barricades to grant cover? I know of the exception about shooting over walls not granting cover to your target, but i don't recall reading any rule about being granted a barricade cover save with a b2b prerequisite. This is just TLOS, and calls for no special mention suggesting otherwise.

2) You must shoot at the front of the tank if you are in its front arc. You may not normally shoot at its side facing if you are in the front arc and can see both the front and sides facing.
You MAY shoot at the side facing if you are in the front arc, in the (rare) condition that you cannot see any of the front facing, in which case you confer a 3+ cover save to the target.

Close but not exactly. A firer may never fire at the side armor if he is in the front arc.




If the firer can draw line of sight to any part of the vehicle's hull or turret, he can fire at that vehicle.

If the firer is in the "front armor arc" he will always roll against front armor for penetration, even if he can only draw line of sight to the side.

If the firer is in the "front armor arc" but cannot draw line of sight to any point on the "front" of the hull or turret (the "front" being the part of the vehicle itself in the front arc), the vehicle's cover save is improved by 1.

Hope this helps.

-GK

Pg 62 wrote: It may rarely happen that the firing unit cannot see any part of the facing they are in (front, side or rear), but they can still see another facing of the target vehicle. In this case they may take the shot against the facing they can see, but to represent such an extremely angled shot, the vehicle receives a 3+ cover save

Sorry, pretty sure you have it wrong GiantKiller

I appreciate the rules quote, and I'm pretty sure I had it wrong, too. The language "against the facing they can see" certainly suggests that the drafter intended the shot to be made against that facing's armor value.

I am away from my rulebooks right now (starting to get the shakes) and I really should've known better than to try to argue against someone's interpretation, based on "how I've always played it" but without the specific language to back it up. Thank you for pointing out my error.

As an aside, I think this presents an interesting tactical consideration. Particularly against mech guard chimeraspam, there are a lot of circumstance where I'd gladly give up +1 to the vehicle's cover save to hit side armor instead of front. If you can't get your firing model into the side arc, but you can maneuver your firer to lose LoS to the front facing but maintain a sliver of LoS to the side facing (for example, because of a wall or, more likely, another vehicle's chassis) you can get side armor anyway. I like it!

Very, very interesting (to a rules lawyer like me, anyway!).


-GK

Darn it, wheres Gwar?

What's the problem? If the tank can see it, it can shoot it. If any part of the model is obscured it is considered to be in cover. 50% of the units in infantry squads must be in cover to grant a cover save. Theres nothing to it.

archite666 wrote:Darn it, wheres Gwar?

I am here, I am just not that interested in this question, especially as other have answered the question sufficiently.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The rule is that if your models are touching a barricade, you get a cover save, and enemy models don't count that barricade as cover if the touching unit fires.

The second part of that is in the cover save rules, but I've never seen a rule granting them a cover save for anything other than actually being obscured. Do you have a page reference for that rule?

He's talking about page 22
Firing Over a Barrier
"Models that are in base contact with a linear piece of terrain they can see over, such as as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a fence can fire at enemies on the other side without the barrier getting in the way of their shots."

Commence with Debate ( That's with a Capital D)

It'd be a pretty poor barrier if it didn't obscure the models behind it.

The Dragon wrote:He's talking about page 22
Firing Over a Barrier
"Models that are in base contact with a linear piece of terrain they can see over, such as as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a fence can fire at enemies on the other side without the barrier getting in the way of their shots."

That's the second part. I was asking for the rule that grants the unit a cover save for being in contact with the barrier.

For simply being in base contact with a barrier? there is no rule for that.

Can you imagine it? Behold I have touched the magic rock and now my whole unit gets a cover save.

I'm pretty sure they must've meant the unit claiming cover was right up on the barrier and behind it in relation to being fired upon by an enemy's position.

insaniak wrote:

The Dragon wrote:He's talking about page 22
Firing Over a Barrier
"Models that are in base contact with a linear piece of terrain they can see over, such as as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a fence can fire at enemies on the other side without the barrier getting in the way of their shots."

That's the second part. I was asking for the rule that grants the unit a cover save for being in contact with the barrier.

Sorry, that's not what I meant. The assumption was that the barrier would be obscuring the unit behind it.

** Looks like I had the barricades rules confused. There is no magic cover save for touching a barrier.

Well, to be fair, there kind of is...

If the models behind the barrier are close enough to be touching it, it's fairly unlikely that they're not going to be at least partially obscured unless the firer is at a much higher elevation.

So the outcome is effectively the same. It's just the reason for it that was wrong

Behold the magic rock. lol