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Having gotten some experience under my belt, I'm learning that necrons are surprisingly eldarish, as in no squad is nearly as strong by itself as when it synergizes with other units. Warriors and Immortals marching up the board together can put out a disgusting amount of gakka (gauss+dakka) for example. However I am getting destroyed in CC. So I had an idea that may work as an CC "Squad" and was wondering if anybody had tried it.

10 Flayed Ones
3 Wraiths

The plan is to deploy the Wraiths as close to the center line on your side of the table behind the biggest rock you can find, and keep them there until the Flayed Ones make their deep strike. Then Turboboost the Wraiths straight at where the Flayed Ones ended up (after scatter). Run the two squads together and rip the back line up. They would end up leapfrogging around for movement I know (Flayed Move, Wraiths move 8-10", Flayed Run)

They should have to either pull a cc squad back to deal with this (or two) or turn their heavy weapons around, allowing my Phalanx to advance into firing range with less resistance.

Flayed ones are terrible, don't run them. If anything do 2 squads of 3 wraiths and a Destroyer Lord w/ war scythe. Flayed ones have the stats of a marine, but nothing special otherwise (yeah they get that fear thingger, but against a lot of assault stuff it will be moot). The only reason you should run flayed ones is fighting stuff like Eldar because of their terribad leadership lol. I must stress not running them against any armies with a lot of fearless (i.e. Nids, Chaos, Demons, etc.)

I'm getting pretty tired of every time I post on this forum, the only responses I get are "That's stoopid. You're stoopid! Lets not forget, you are Stoopid!"

You know what? you!

Have you tried it? Can you show me? Can you prove it?

Are Wraiths better then Flayed ones? Maybe, but so far the games I've played vs 'crons, I've taken them out with my basic warriors. IN Close Combat! Where wraiths are supposed to be good.

I've had more luck using Scarabs, but they're nothing but a tarpit, granted, but at least they've done some damage. (2 kills vs Pariahs, several IG squads, and a couple of SMarines, even some Genestealers)

On the other hand, WBB has proven pretty useful in CC. Most armies don't carry more then one or two power weapons in a squad, and I can pull them down with sheer relentlessness. My guys will come back, yours don't.

no one called or insinuated that you were stupid, one person just made a statement of opinion that flayed ones were not the best choice for a CC unit in a Necron army.

and I can say what I have seen is a Necron army with some wraiths as a counter-charge CC unit vs a berzerkerspam chaos marine list... by turn 2 the necrons were phased out by a single unit of berzerkers that got extra movement from 1. being charged by the wraiths, 2. wining combat and consolodating 6" forward.
that extra movement gave him a 2nd turn charge, where one unit charged into 2 full units of warriors (including a lord with rez orb) the zerkers broke them and ran down all of them, forcing the phase out.

I've always thought Flayed Ones were ridiculously cool, and I could really see them owning against Guardsmen or Eldar, as stated previously. However, I've never fought against them, so I don't know how effective they are from first-hand experience. I always thought that their stats should have been just a tidbit more beefy, though. Maybe just another point of weapon skill, or a point of strength or something. You know.

But Wraiths I HAVE played against, and I've found that in small numbers they're underwhelming, but in a decent group they can seriously throw a wrench in anyone's plans (providing those plans center around infantry). I've had a squad of wraiths take out two of my Noise Marine squads, then tie up my Sorcerer until the Nightbringer got close enough to end me. So I'd say that yes, they can be very effective.

As for your tactic, I'd say that combining two dedicated close combat units into one assault is always a winner. If I were you, I'd try to keep the Wraiths in front of the Flayed Ones so that their impressive invulnerable saves can have a decent chance of soaking up some fire. Just a thought.

As there are only 3 other 'cron players around here, and one I've not played, I don't have a lot to judge by:

One guy played Wraiths. He charged his first squad into one of my 12-15 man squad of warriors. Warriors -1- Wraiths -0-. I completely wiped him out. Next turn he charged the second squad. He lasted a turn or two before I wiped out the rest of his wraiths. My squad of warriors wasn't even under half. If he had charged both in at once, it probably would have made my job a lot harder.

The other guy used pariahs. I tarpitted them with scarabs until he used the Deceiver to start swatting them like flies.

Mathhammer says that a full squad of Flayed Ones should kill 1.7 MEQs per turn (2.5 on the charge), while Wraiths get only 1.3 MEQ's per turn (1.7 on the charge). Mathhammer is not the whole game I know, tactics play a huge part, but they do help give hints to units effectiveness. But I can't find any tactica on using Flayed Ones. There must be some reason, originally I thought it might be price, but a full squad of Flayed Ones is only $75, compared to the wraiths $60, not significant when considering GW prices.

Wraiths can move as fast as a vehicle, Flayed Ones can deep strike, infiltrate, and move through cover .
Wraiths have an Invulnerable Save, Flayed Ones have more models.
Wraiths take a fast slot (Destroyers/Scarabs), Flayed Ones take a elite slot. (Immortals/Pariahs)



I have been toying around with the idea of using the "Bug Zapper" AKA Destroyer Lord w/ lighting field attached to scarab swarm(10). But will that be enough to swing combats into my favor so my one squad of scarabs can win and move on, or will it just make the tarpit last longer? Alternately I could just throw a second squad of scarabs(10) into that same combat and make sure that they're not going to be able to get that squad back into the game.

Is that all the CC options for the Necrons? Could a lord armed with a phylactery and a phase shifter join a squad of Pariahs and hope for good run rolls? Is a tooled out Destroyer Lord (or two) the way to go? Would a Lord with a Rez orb and a Veil double the effectiveness of a squad of Flayed Ones, or Wraiths for that matter? Just tarpit them with scarabs?

gjinari wrote:I'm getting pretty tired of every time I post on this forum, the only responses I get are "That's stoopid. You're stoopid! Lets not forget, you are Stoopid!"

You know what? you!

Have you tried it? Can you show me? Can you prove it?

Are Wraiths better then Flayed ones? Maybe, but so far the games I've played vs 'crons, I've taken them out with my basic warriors. IN Close Combat! Where wraiths are supposed to be good.

I've had more luck using Scarabs, but they're nothing but a tarpit, granted, but at least they've done some damage. (2 kills vs Pariahs, several IG squads, and a couple of SMarines, even some Genestealers)

On the other hand, WBB has proven pretty useful in CC. Most armies don't carry more then one or two power weapons in a squad, and I can pull them down with sheer relentlessness. My guys will come back, yours don't.

If you ask someones opinion and they say it doesn't work then it doesn't work to them. You will NEVER know the true experience of a person on a random internet forum. Get use to it. Saying something like that makes me think that if the tip doesn't adhere to what you want it to be, you'll dismiss it as idiocy and won't bother trying to gain anything from it. If you don't think they explained their position enough and want to learn more from them, then PM them about "what do you mean by that?" or reply in that same way.

For CC with crons you just have to try and avoid it for the most part. Crons are not a strong army in this edition in the first place and they were meant to be weaker in CC and that just compiles to mean you kinda suck in CC.

IMHO the best tactic for crons CC is to avoid it entirely. Using Cloak and Monoliths you can portal units out of CC and you should definitely try to eliminate units that want to get you bogged down in CC with destroyers and immortals and warriors nice shooting.

Tarpitting with scarabs and sacrificial units then sending in the big guns (Tomb Spiders, Lords, C'Tan) and just swarm them can work too.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/battle-report-necrons-vs-iyanden.html

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/battle-report-necrons-vs-mech-eldar.html

here are two battle-reports that I think will give you a bit more understanding on CC with crons.

Wraiths I think with a Destroyer lord with PW etc. is a decent combo that might get you a decent CC unit if it hits units that have been weakened by shooting.

Ok, I might have been a bit harsh with Zid, but it reminded me very much of my post back in july when I started playing Necrons. I asked for some tactical advice, (since there is no Necron Tactics in the Tactic Articles section) and got nothing but "Use a monolith, if you don't you're stupid and will never ever win a game". I haven't fielded a monolith yet, and have won a couple of games, fought to a draw a couple of times, and gotten much closer over all to playing "close" games.

Zid didn't say "When I fight against them, they can't even scratch me." Or "When I use them they always get wiped without doing anything" he said "Your Unit is Worthless."

He did offer an alternative, which I have taken into consideration, after cooling off a bit.

Shelegelah, did say, when I fight Wraiths this happens... makes his statement have a bit more weight. Although, I would like to know what his definition of "small numbers" and "decent group" are.

Using one squad of wraiths to shield the second squad (as used against me) seems like a waste. When I threw a squad on the table, they got nuked, without even drawing a significant amount of fire. Caused me to drop them out of my army until I at least learn how to use them better.

I have tried to cloak out of CC, and that works somewhat, but that leaves my phalanx without a rez orb, and me not able to get back in time to cloak out the next unit to be assaulted/divides my fire base so I can't gakka stuff nearly as well/ etc.

I know I'll never out CC an assault army(and I'm not trying to) , but I play against several bugs, some orks, and a couple of BA armies regularly, so I'll need some way of dealing with it.

Haven't tried the 'spiders yet, (can't keep the dang thing together long enough to move it off my hobby table), Or C'Tan, but the lord I've been using hasn't exactly been a "Demon Prince" CC monster (again, not trying to) and certainly can't stand on his own as the only CC option.

Thanks for the Battle Report Links, I will read them.

And Zid, I apologize.

gjinari wrote:Ok, I might have been a bit harsh with Zid, but it reminded me very much of my post back in july when I started playing Necrons. I asked for some tactical advice, (since there is no Necron Tactics in the Tactic Articles section) and got nothing but "Use a monolith, if you don't you're stupid and will never ever win a game". I haven't fielded a monolith yet, and have won a couple of games, fought to a draw a couple of times, and gotten much closer over all to playing "close" games.

Zid didn't say "When I fight against them, they can't even scratch me." Or "When I use them they always get wiped without doing anything" he said "Your Unit is Worthless."

He did offer an alternative, which I have taken into consideration, after cooling off a bit.

Shelegelah, did say, when I fight Wraiths this happens... makes his statement have a bit more weight. Although, I would like to know what his definition of "small numbers" and "decent group" are.

Using one squad of wraiths to shield the second squad (as used against me) seems like a waste. When I threw a squad on the table, they got nuked, without even drawing a significant amount of fire. Caused me to drop them out of my army until I at least learn how to use them better.

I have tried to cloak out of CC, and that works somewhat, but that leaves my phalanx without a rez orb, and me not able to get back in time to cloak out the next unit to be assaulted/divides my fire base so I can't gakka stuff nearly as well/ etc.

I know I'll never out CC an assault army(and I'm not trying to) , but I play against several bugs, some orks, and a couple of BA armies regularly, so I'll need some way of dealing with it.

Haven't tried the 'spiders yet, (can't keep the dang thing together long enough to move it off my hobby table), Or C'Tan, but the lord I've been using hasn't exactly been a "Demon Prince" CC monster (again, not trying to) and certainly can't stand on his own as the only CC option.

Thanks for the Battle Report Links, I will read them.

And Zid, I apologize.

Its cool. But honestly, Flayed ones are terrible bro. Ask any experienced cron player (I play with a dude with 5000+ points) and they will all say the same. A CC unit with MARINE stats, very few attacks, and only one ability thats cool (I mean they can't even assault outta DS) is not worth it. On top of that they cost quite a bit for what they do. I had one game where some flayed ones assaulted my CC warriors (nids), they didn't even get 1 wound, and I wiped the squad. And warriors aren't even that good.

Yes, wraiths aren't the best unit, but if your trying for CC Destroyer lord w/ 3 wraiths for the counter charge is basically the ONLY way to run. Yes, crons are terrible in CC, but the wraiths Str 6 hits are pretty good against stuff with bad saves. And the 3+ invun is pretty nice.

I think the biggest thing with crons, like others said, is try and avoid CC altogether. It lowers your phase out number a lot, for crons its only good for the counter charge, and everything gets saves against it. Str 6 is nice, but the fact its not a power weapon is kinda lame. Yeah, you get war scythes (which are pretty damn awesome IMO), but thats about it. And the Nightbringer/Deciever are beasts.... when they finally get to the front line.

I play against 'Crons enough to know that if you try and CC (depending on what you fight) it fails. If you REALLY wanna use some flayed ones run them against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or IG. Their terribad LD makes flayed ones beast. The one time I've seem them used to effect was when they charged some banshees, the guy failed his LD, and they sweeped the unit. Its rare, but it was pretty funny! but against things liek Chaos, Demons, Nids, and a plethora of other armys with a lotta fearless Flayed ones are just sub-par wannabe marines :(

The problem I have with flayed ones over Wraiths, is that wraiths have a better initiative. Your numbers are good, but lets say that the wraiths are fighting the flayed ones.

With the wraiths attacking, the Flayed ones will lose one at least, maybe two. Then the flayed ones will attack and lose a little less. But that is if there is only one squad of wraiths.

Run two. Almost the same points. You can have a full squad of Flayed ones for 180 right? But two squads of wraiths for 246. Me personally, I have five which is 205. Now do the numbers. Wraiths can do more damage and take less hits for only slightly more points. Essentially, wraiths are better for the points. One wraith costs as much as two flayed ones, but kill more often.

Still, all of this is pointless because wraiths should only be used to hit the rear edge guys anyway. Recently I saw a battle agains tht eldar and the Necrons had a squad of flayed ones. They got killed the moment they came on the board. They were shot, and then assaulted. It was brutal!

However, I would rather have Scarabs. They are usually better, and cheaper. Get ten and give them Disrupter fields and throw them at enemy tanks and vehicles. The Scarabs can get there fast and tie up the vehicle until that vehicle can't move or fire. With 30 attacks you will get a few 6's on them. And something that can't move or shoot is dead.

Still, necrons is an army that doesn't do well in CC. Flayed ones will just get dead. Got cheaper, go Scarabs.

headrattle wrote:The problem I have with flayed ones over Wraiths, is that wraiths have a better initiative. Your numbers are good, but lets say that the wraiths are fighting the flayed ones.

With the wraiths attacking, the Flayed ones will lose one at least, maybe two. Then the flayed ones will attack and lose a little less. But that is if there is only one squad of wraiths.

Run two. Almost the same points. You can have a full squad of Flayed ones for 180 right? But two squads of wraiths for 246. Me personally, I have five which is 205. Now do the numbers. Wraiths can do more damage and take less hits for only slightly more points. Essentially, wraiths are better for the points. One wraith costs as much as two flayed ones, but kill more often.

Still, all of this is pointless because wraiths should only be used to hit the rear edge guys anyway. Recently I saw a battle agains tht eldar and the Necrons had a squad of flayed ones. They got killed the moment they came on the board. They were shot, and then assaulted. It was brutal!

However, I would rather have Scarabs. They are usually better, and cheaper. Get ten and give them Disrupter fields and throw them at enemy tanks and vehicles. The Scarabs can get there fast and tie up the vehicle until that vehicle can't move or fire. With 30 attacks you will get a few 6's on them. And something that can't move or shoot is dead.

Still, necrons is an army that doesn't do well in CC. Flayed ones will just get dead. Got cheaper, go Scarabs.

Good point, Scarabs arent that bad honestly. They have 3 wounds each, are cheap, can glance down vehicles (like Land Raiders), and can tie up large combat units for several turns. yeah, they might not kill it. But they will keep a hive tyrant at bay for 2-3 turns in large numbers!

scarabs are great. the thing to keep in mind though, is that they are vulnerable to instant death. PF/PK will go through scarab bases pretty fast in CC, and instant death template weapons can be a nightmare for your little robots due to the swarm rule.

Unfortunately necrons are pretty bad in CC overall. As I am sure you have realised, keeping warriors out of CC is one of the most important things you can do to help avoid phase out.

Here are my thoughts on the various necron CC units:

C'tan: these guys are murderball. they definately on the short list of most powerful single models in all of 40k right now

Pariahs: I am not a fan at all. They are VERY expensive, their anti-psycher abilities are of questionable value, and most importantly they arent 'necrons'. their weapons are savage, but they are a big point sink that is pretty easy to avoid or just to death before it gets into CC.

Flayed-Ones: i havent ever run them, but as others have said, they are space marines with some fancy rules that will almost never actually come into play

Wraiths: ive had mixed results with these guys. I love the idea of them, but the maximum squad size is a severe limitation. The invul save is nice, but they still arent overly survivable with only 3 wounds in your 120pt squad. you are bound to roll some 1s and 2s eventually. On the plus side they are terrifically mobile and have great initiative. But i have found it tough to find suitable targets for them to charge due to being largely outnumbered by virtually any enemy squad.

scarabs: i love them. one of the best units in the codex in my opinion. you can do so many things with them for so few points. I am just a total fan

Lord/Destroyer Lord: Never used a non-destroyer lord for CC. Destroyer lord is solid though. high toughness, fast, hits hard in CC with his warscythe. Have had him kill a squad of terminators all by his lonesome (slightly lucky dice, but he murders hard targets like termis). run him side by side with wraiths as they have the same speed. other wargear options can help survivability but his high toughness makes him hard even with just normal saves.


Overall: in general i have a hard time justifying the CC options for crons. when i look at wraiths/flayed ones/pariahs I have a hard time not imagining them as more destroyers/immortals, which are basically the 2 best units in the codex IMO.

I've seen some Nidzillar style lists with 2 Squads of Scarabs , Tomb Spyders and Wraiths.