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On another thread, we got into the discussion on whether a terminator gets the+1 attack bonus for a ccw and stormbolter. I say it does. I'm going by page 42 of the black reach mini-rulebook, which describes "Normal" ccws as chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, pistols, etc. and page 37, which states that you get the +1 attack for having 2 single handed weapons. It seems to me that it is not as much about what kind of weapons are used, but more about how many (one in each hand to get the bonus).

since terminators (because of their armor) can weild a storm bolter as a single handed weapon (and grey knights with thier special rule), I don't see why they shouldn't get the bonus just like the grey knights.

So I thought I might run it up the flagpole and see what everybody else thinks.

MODQUISITION ON:
Greetings I am using this as one of two threads to test the tenets of YMDC in a real world context. Posts starting on page four after my notation will be modded accordingly. Your help would be appreciated in this experiment.

If the OP desires that i not use this thread as a test they are free to PM and I will leave the thread be.

Thanks
Frazzled

Unless there is a specific entry that states that they can (don't have the SM dex in front of me) a storm bolter does not count as a CCW therefor they don't get a bonus attack. The bonus attack for CCW is if you have two of them.

gothmog wrote:since terminators (because of their armor) can weild a storm bolter as a single handed weapon

Can you find a rule to back that up?



Storm Bolters are not defined as a single handed weapon, nor as a pistol or close combat weapon. Terminator Armour does not add any rule that changes how storm bolters are defined in the rules.

So there is nothing that would allow them to be used by regular terminators in close combat for the bonus attack.


You'll also find that some players contest the bonus being granted by any single handed weapon in the current edition, ruling that the weapon list on page 42 restricts it solely to close combat weapons and pistols specifically, rather than any single handed weapon as mentioned on page 37.

No, Storm Bolters are not Close Combat Weapons and do not provide any sort of bonus at all, for the reasons insaniak states.

I agree that the rules are vague when defining what constitutes a ccw. It uses words like "typically". And describes them as "rifle butts and bayonets".

All I'm saying is that the rule seems to be more hinged upon how many weapons, as opposed to what kind. And terminators use storm bolters as a single handed weapon. that's a fact. just look at the model. They have a stormbolter in one hand and a powerfist, or whatever, in the other. Are you saying that in the rules, they are actually carrying the stormbolter with 2 hands?

No, in the rules they are not using any hands, because the Storm Bolter is never defined as either 1 or two handed nor defined as a CCW and as such cannot fall into either criteria (1 Handed weapon/Close Combat Weapon).

This is an entirely moot point of course, because you cannot claim the extra attack with the power fist anyway because you would need a second power fist.

Makes me wonder why this is even being discussed to tell the truth.

insaniak wrote:

gothmog wrote:since terminators (because of their armor) can weild a storm bolter as a single handed weapon

Can you find a rule to back that up?



Storm Bolters are not defined as a single handed weapon, nor as a pistol or close combat weapon. Terminator Armour does not add any rule that changes how storm bolters are defined in the rules.

So there is nothing that would allow them to be used by regular terminators in close combat for the bonus attack.


You'll also find that some players contest the bonus being granted by any single handed weapon in the current edition, ruling that the weapon list on page 42 restricts it solely to close combat weapons and pistols specifically, rather than any single handed weapon as mentioned on page 37.

The only time you can use stormbolters as a close combat weapon is if you have the ability called "True Grit" or the equivalent...... Grey Knights and Space Wolves, are good examples of an army that uses this rule.....

DJ Illuminati wrote:The only time you can use stormbolters as a close combat weapon is if you have the ability called "True Grit" or the equivalent...... Grey Knights and Space Wolves, are good examples of an army that uses this rule.....

Only Grey Knights can. Space Wolves only use Bolters, and even then that is only for 2 more months before the new codex comes out and replaces it.

Still is a Moot Point though.

gothmog wrote:All I'm saying is that the rule seems to be more hinged upon how many weapons, as opposed to what kind.

No. Both are equal. You must have two of them and they must both be single-handed. If one or the other is missing, then you can't claim the extra +1 Attack in close combat. You can't claim one is more important than the other and therefore you can get the +1 Attack if you only meet one of the two criteria.

gothmog wrote:And terminators use storm bolters as a single handed weapon. that's a fact. just look at the model. They have a stormbolter in one hand and a powerfist, or whatever, in the other. Are you saying that in the rules, they are actually carrying the stormbolter with 2 hands?

So? Where do the rules say that how it is modeled determines how many hands it takes to use? Terminators have always been modeled with their storm bolters in one hand, even when the rules were very specific that storm bolters were two-handed weapons. How they're modeled is inconsequential.

gothmog wrote:All I'm saying is that the rule seems to be more hinged upon how many weapons, as opposed to what kind.

The weapon has to be defined as a CCW, a pistol, or (if you accept page 37) as a single-handed weapon in order to grant the bonus attack.

And terminators use storm bolters as a single handed weapon. that's a fact. just look at the model.

How the model is carrying the weapon is completely irrelevant. There are numerous power armoured models with bolters, storm bolters and combi-weapons held in one hand. That doesn't make the weapon one handed... it just makes the character modelled holding the weapon in one hand.

I can hold an assault rifle in one hand. Can't shoot for peanuts with it held that way though... although I can wave it around and gesture with the other hand if I feel so inclined.

Are you saying that in the rules, they are actually carrying the stormbolter with 2 hands?

What I'm saying is that the rules don't define it as single handed, as a CCW, or as a pistol. It therefore does nit confer a bonus attack no matter how many hands the model uses to hold it.

Ok, sounds good to me. I agree with Gwar!, this is moot. the rules are specific. terminators never get a +1 att bonus for 2 ccws unless they are matched pairs such as lightning claws, at least when it comes to nilla marines.

insaniak wrote:What I'm saying is that the rules don't define it as single handed, as a CCW, or as a pistol. It therefore does nit confer a bonus attack no matter how many hands the model uses to hold it.

Insaniak is corect - remember that the rules are permissive - they must specifically allow you to do something. Yes you could say that the butt of a SB counts as a 'CCW' however, because it isn't declared to be a 'single-handed' CCW, it does not count for the purposes of +1 attack.

The list of generic 'CCW's' is to replace the old rules that used to state (IIRC) that every model was considered to have a knife somewhere on their person (to allow them to attack in CC), which could cause confusion in this edition because a 'combat blade' is a specific 1-handed CCW these days.

gothmog wrote:Ok, sounds good to me. I agree with Gwar!, this is moot. the rules are specific. terminators never get a +1 att bonus for 2 ccws unless they are matched pairs such as lightning claws.

The second part of your statement is incorrect. A terminator can have 2 CCW's and still grant +1 Attack. However, a Storm Bolter does not fit this requirement, and a single lightning claw or powerfist only grants a bonus attack if paired.

gothmog wrote:Ok, sounds good to me. I agree with Gwar!, this is moot. the rules are specific. terminators never get a +1 att bonus for 2 ccws unless they are matched pairs such as lightning claws.

It's moot for loyalist terminators, who come standard with power fists.

That's not true of everybody.

gothmog wrote:And terminators use storm bolters as a single handed weapon. that's a fact. just look at the model. They have a stormbolter in one hand and a powerfist, or whatever, in the other. Are you saying that in the rules, they are actually carrying the stormbolter with 2 hands?

No... he's saying that what the model looks like has nothing to do with the rules as far as extra attacks or weapons fired goes. A Stormbolter is not defined as a weapon that could give an extra attack so it doesn't. Claiming the SB is onehanded because the model carries it in one hand is almost as absurd as claiming a model can't shoot since the weapon is slung on it's back or holstered.

gothmog wrote:I agree that the rules are vague when defining what constitutes a ccw. It uses words like "typically". And describes them as "rifle butts and bayonets".

All I'm saying is that the rule seems to be more hinged upon how many weapons, as opposed to what kind. And terminators use storm bolters as a single handed weapon. that's a fact. just look at the model. They have a stormbolter in one hand and a powerfist, or whatever, in the other. Are you saying that in the rules, they are actually carrying the stormbolter with 2 hands?

A storm bolter is specifically defined as assault 2. Nowhere in the assault weapon description on page 28 of the BGB does it say that assault weapons count as an extra CCW.

A bolt pistol, for example is defined as a pistol. On page 29 of your BGB it states that pistols do count as an additional CCW.

That's not very vague from my standpoint.

However as has been stated, it's only how many hands it takes to use the weapon that determines if it can be used for an additional +1 Attack in close combat according to the rules on page 37 of the rulebook.

Ghaz wrote:However as has been stated, it's only how many hands it takes to use the weapon that determines if it can be used for an additional +1 Attack in close combat according to the rules on page 37 of the rulebook.

Keep reading, page 42 goes on to define what single handed weapons are and the "possible combinations".

Page 42 does not state that only pistols and close combat weapons are single handed, does it? No, it doesn't.

You hav to hav a close combat weapon and pistol or 2 close combat weapons. A storm bolter is an assault weapon even when wielded by a terminator

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:The only time you can use stormbolters as a close combat weapon is if you have the ability called "True Grit" or the equivalent...... Grey Knights and Space Wolves, are good examples of an army that uses this rule.....

Only Grey Knights can. Space Wolves only use Bolters, and even then that is only for 2 more months before the new codex comes out and replaces it.

Still is a Moot Point though.

Space Wolves are losing true grit? And in the SM codex i do believe it classifies a storm bolter as a two handed weapon.

jab4962 wrote:Space Wolves are losing true grit?

It is thought they will, as True Grit was Removed as a USR, and with Space Marines having Bolter and Bolt Pistol (and a few models having Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW ala Chaos Marines), it is rumoured that Grey Hunters and others will instead get All three ala Chaos Marine.

jab4962 wrote:And in the SM codex i do believe it classifies a storm bolter as a two handed weapon.

Page 99, Codex: Ultramarines and Salamanders (Let's be Honest, no-one uses anyone else):

Storm Bolter
A storm bolter resembles two boltguns attached side by side. The storm bolter is capable of withering fire without hindering manoeuvrability, enabling the bearer to charge headlong into combat, firing on his enemy all the while.

Nothing about 2 handed at all.

Well to end this argument the rules for powerfists say you cant gain an additional attack by having an additional CCW.

broxus wrote:Well to end this argument the rules for powerfists say you cant gain an additional attack by having an additional CCW.

I said that in my Second post, but it doesn't stop some people it seems

And actually, that is not true. The rule is "If you have a Powerfist You cannot get a Bonus attack for having another CCW, Unless it is another powerfist", not "If you have a Powerfist you cannot get a bonus attack for having another CCW."

I'm going to model a daemon prince with 5 close combat weapons so it gets 4 extra attacks.

willydstyle wrote:I'm going to model a daemon prince with 5 close combat weapons so it gets 4 extra attacks.

Well, not only is that Not permitted by the Daemon Prices rules, but also by Page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, which states that "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit - you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons."

@Broxus below: It was nearly 2am, and us Trolles need our Beauty sleep

Gwar, didnt see your second post you must have been tired and didnt capture that in your first post. You feeling ok, very out of character?

The storm bolter is listed as an assault weapon (in DA list anyhoo). Last time I checked, flamers, plasma guns, and melta guns did not grant me a +1 attack when combined with the bolt pistol my tactical unit has. And because the Terminator does not say "treat storm bolters as pistols" or an equivalent, its a no go to extra attacks.

EDIT: Huh to longer to post than I thought.

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I'm going to model a daemon prince with 5 close combat weapons so it gets 4 extra attacks.

Well, not only is that Not permitted by the Daemon Prices rules, but also by Page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, which states that "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit - you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons."

@Broxus below: It was nearly 2am, and us Trolles need our Beauty sleep

I was being facetious... because I think that is only slightly more ridiculous than the "storm bolters count as a pistol because they look like it."

willydstyle wrote:I was being facetious... because I think that is only slightly more ridiculous than the "storm bolters count as a pistol because they look like it."

And I, in return, was being acutely pedantic in response to your facetiousness