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Gwar! wrote:

jab4962 wrote:Space Wolves are losing true grit?

It is thought they will, as True Grit was Removed as a USR, and with Space Marines having Bolter and Bolt Pistol (and a few models having Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW ala Chaos Marines), it is rumoured that Grey Hunters and others will instead get All three ala Chaos Marine.

jab4962 wrote:And in the SM codex i do believe it classifies a storm bolter as a two handed weapon.

Page 99, Codex: Ultramarines and Salamanders (Let's be Honest, no-one uses anyone else):

Storm Bolter
A storm bolter resembles two boltguns attached side by side. The storm bolter is capable of withering fire without hindering manoeuvrability, enabling the bearer to charge headlong into combat, firing on his enemy all the while.

Nothing about 2 handed at all.

Well it says in the bolter description that it IS rapid fire, and it doesn't say anything about THAT being one-handed, so if one bolter is two-handed, then two bolters taped together is probably normally two-handed as well. Although terminators are modeled with a storm bolter in one hand, and correct me if I am wrong on this point, it says nowhere in the rules that the terminators can shoot a storm bolter with one hand.

jab4962 wrote:Well it says in the bolter description that it IS rapid fire, and it doesn't say anything about THAT being one-handed, so if one bolter is two-handed, then two bolters taped together is probably normally two-handed as well. Although terminators are modeled with a storm bolter in one hand, and correct me if I am wrong on this point, it says nowhere in the rules that the terminators can shoot a storm bolter with one hand.

Well, that's the problem. You need to have rules to back it up. Just because it is rapid fire doesn't mean anything.

broxus wrote:Well to end this argument the rules for powerfists say you cant gain an additional attack by having an additional CCW.

And so, again, not all terminators have powerfists.

The discussion would be relevant for Sergeants, or ICs in Terminator armour. I woudn't be too surprised to see Wolf Guard with an option to take normal CCWs in the new codex, as well.

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I was being facetious... because I think that is only slightly more ridiculous than the "storm bolters count as a pistol because they look like it."

And I, in return, was being acutely pedantic in response to your facetiousness

I see, you used double-sarcasm on me. Well played, sir!

Gwar! wrote:

jab4962 wrote:Well it says in the bolter description that it IS rapid fire, and it doesn't say anything about THAT being one-handed, so if one bolter is two-handed, then two bolters taped together is probably normally two-handed as well. Although terminators are modeled with a storm bolter in one hand, and correct me if I am wrong on this point, it says nowhere in the rules that the terminators can shoot a storm bolter with one hand.

Well, that's the problem. You need to have rules to back it up. Just because it is rapid fire doesn't mean anything.

AoBR rules p.28

"Rapid Fire Weapons:
Rapid Fire weapons are very common and usually come in the form of semi-automatic rifles. Their versatility means they can be fired effectively from the hip when a squad is advancing.

Assault Weapons
Assault Weapons are fired by warriors as they move forward into the attack. They either fire so rapidly or are so indiscriminate that all you have to do is point and shoot..."

Neither say anything about being one handed, while the pistol section says "light enough to be fired one-handed...handy enough to allow the trooper to fight in close combat with a combination of pistol and sword..."

The pistol section SPECIFICALLY says that it is one-handed, inferring that the others are not.

Well, I am very sorry, but the 40k Rules say what is, not what isn't. Unless the rules say "ALL RAPID FIRE WEAPON ARE TWO HANDED MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!" They are not.

Furthermore, the AoBR Rulebook is the exact same as the normal one, so there is no need to differentiate between them.
Further Furthermore, every single part you just quoted is fluff, not rules.

Gwar! wrote:Well, I am very sorry, but the 40k Rules say what is, not what isn't. Unless the rules say "ALL RAPID FIRE WEAPON ARE TWO HANDED MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!" They are not.

Furthermore, the AoBR Rulebook is the exact same as the normal one, so there is no need to differentiate between them.
Further Furthermore, every single part you just quoted is fluff, not rules.

Ah, one more thing GW has forgotten to mention, either way.

I mentioned AoBR for the correct page number.
Just as you quoted the fluff of the SM storm bolter section.

I'm running out of energy for this, so I'm just going to stop.

Imperial Monkey wrote:You hav to hav a close combat weapon and pistol or 2 close combat weapons. A storm bolter is an assault weapon even when wielded by a terminator

And exactly where on page 37 do the rules require that they be a pistol or a close combat weapon? They don't.

combatmedic wrote:The storm bolter is listed as an assault weapon (in DA list anyhoo). Last time I checked, flamers, plasma guns, and melta guns did not grant me a +1 attack when combined with the bolt pistol my tactical unit has. And because the Terminator does not say "treat storm bolters as pistols" or an equivalent, its a no go to extra attacks.

And again, open your rulebook to page 37 and tell us where it says only pistols and close combat weapons can be used to provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat? It says no such thing. The only requirement is that you have a single-handed weapon in each hand, nothing else. There is no rule limiting it to specific weapon types.

To break things down a little, before this turns into yet another rehash of a very tired argument...


There are two separate pages that contain rules that appear to apply when determining whether or not a model gets an attack bonus for having two weapons.

- Page 37, second bullet point.
This entry tells us that models get the bonus attack for having two single-handed weapons, and mentions that such weapons are typically close combat weapons or pistols.

- Page 42, "Fighting with Two Single-Handed Weapons"
This section specifically addresses models fighting with various combinations of the different sorts of close combat weapons (which includes pistols, since they count as a CCW, as mentioned under the 'Normal Close Combat Weapons' section).

This section only addresses combinations of the different types of close combat weapons, and doesn't mention single-handed weapons other than in a line mentioning that some models have single handed weapons that can be used in close combat.



Some players take page 42 to be the section with the actual rules covering the bonus attack, treating the entry on page 37 as a summary rather than an actual rule. Which means that models need 2 CCWs, not just any two single-handed weapons, to gain the bonus.

Some players take page 37 as an additional rule, which means that models gain the bonus attack for having two close combat weapons, or for just having two single-handed weapons, whatever they may be.

RAW would seem (to me) to lean towards the latter, as nothing on page 42 specifically contradicts page 37. But given the trend in the codexes for not defining the 'handedness' of weapons, I rather suspect that RAI is for the bonus to only come from having CCWs and/or pistols, with the wording on page 37 being an artefact of the previous edition.

Make of that what you will.

Ghaz wrote:

Imperial Monkey wrote:You hav to hav a close combat weapon and pistol or 2 close combat weapons. A storm bolter is an assault weapon even when wielded by a terminator

And exactly where on page 37 do the rules require that they be a pistol or a close combat weapon? They don't.

combatmedic wrote:The storm bolter is listed as an assault weapon (in DA list anyhoo). Last time I checked, flamers, plasma guns, and melta guns did not grant me a +1 attack when combined with the bolt pistol my tactical unit has. And because the Terminator does not say "treat storm bolters as pistols" or an equivalent, its a no go to extra attacks.

And again, open your rulebook to page 37 and tell us where it says only pistols and close combat weapons can be used to provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat? It says no such thing. The only requirement is that you have a single-handed weapon in each hand, nothing else. There is no rule limiting it to specific weapon types.

Ghaz, refer to pages 28-32 in your BGB to find all the info you need on weapon types. The only shooting weapon type that allows an extra close combat attack is a pistol. There are some exceptions included in different codexes. Space Wolves and Deamonhunters come to mind, as they can use bolters or storm bolters as an additional CCW respectively due to true grit.

And yet again, where does page 37 say that those rules apply only to close combat weapons and pistols? Pages 28-32 say no such thing, do they? Pages 28-32 say absolutely nothing about gaining an extra +1 Attack in close combat. As worded, the rules on page 37 allow ANY TYPE OF WEAPON will provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat as long as they're single-handed. If they wanted it to only apply to pistols and close combat weapons then they would have worded it as such as they did in the 3rd edition rulebook.

You're still making the same baseless assumption that only a close combat weapon will provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat when page 37 does not make that distinction.

...sigh...


Well, I tried.

Okay, two single-handed weapons will give you your attack bonus. However, we have a permissive rule set here. You must now prove that stormbolters are classed as single handed. Models do not count as proof. Also, even if you prove they are not classed as two handed, it doesn't follow that they are classed as single handed.

Also, please check if bolters count as 2-handed or single handed. If they are single handed, SM will get an extra attack in close combat.

And that's the rub, none of the new codexes have any mention of single or double handed.

If Ghaz wants to make this argument with DH or WH codexes then he might have something to go on. As it is, absolutely none of the weapons in the SM codex are classed as either.

Personally, I take the bullet on p37 as both a summary of what's to come on p42 and as a catch-all for the legacy codexes.

They have removed handedness from the rules. The only mention of it is the two handed rule that relic blades have. However two handed on the relic blade doesn't even mean the same thing as it used to mean back in old codices as there are no longer limits to how many weapons you can carry.

As for the rulebook discussion, the stuff about 2 single handed weapons working is there so that the old codexes that do mention stuff like that will still work. As there are no longer any weapons classified as single handed, once those old codexes are fully phased out it will only be CCWs and pistols that give extra CC attacks.

As for being pedantic...well that is the nature of our hobby. And pedantic is a cool word. I'm quite sure it qualifies as a CCW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, where does page 37 say that those rules apply only to close combat weapons and pistols? Pages 28-32 say no such thing, do they? Pages 28-32 say absolutely nothing about gaining an extra +1 Attack in close combat. As worded, the rules on page 37 allow ANY TYPE OF WEAPON will provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat as long as they're single-handed. If they wanted it to only apply to pistols and close combat weapons then they would have worded it as such as they did in the 3rd edition rulebook.

You're still making the same baseless assumption that only a close combat weapon will provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat when page 37 does not make that distinction.

Hey Ghaz, though it seems to be a lost cause...Thanks for fighting the good fight! To me this is a serious discussion that deserves dialogue. And I have to say that I agree with you on page 37. To me, that's argument.

Yes, you have a reasonable argument that single handed weapons count for +1A bonus.

However, only old codexes have handedness anymore. So, you're stuck with the p42 bullet points for all the 5th ed. codexes.

Are there any single handed weapons in the old codexes which are not pistols or CCWs?

Storm Shields, and that is about it IIRC.

That's what I thought - no assault or rapid fire weapons?

Scott-S6 wrote:That's what I thought - no assault or rapid fire weapons?

From the Codex Daemonhunters FAQ:

Q. Does the Callidus Assassin’s neural shredder count as a single or two-handed weapon?

A. Single-handed.

There is your single-handed Assault weapon.

Pika_power wrote:Okay, two single-handed weapons will give you your attack bonus. However, we have a permissive rule set here. You must now prove that stormbolters are classed as single handed.

Prove to me that they're two-handed? Seems to me you can't prove your position any more than someone can prove otherwise. That's been my position all along. The rules don't tell us how many hands they take to use.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:They have removed handedness from the rules. The only mention of it is the two handed rule that relic blades have. However two handed on the relic blade doesn't even mean the same thing as it used to mean back in old codices as there are no longer limits to how many weapons you can carry.

They have not removed handedness from the rules. It's right there on page 37 as being the only way to get the bonus +1 Attack in close combat. Where else does it say that you get a bonus +1 Attack in close combat? It's one of the biggest flaws in the game. You get the bonus +1 Attack for using two single-handed weapons, yet they don't tell us how many hands it takes to use the majority of the weapons in the new codices and only the rules for pistols default them to being single-handed. The rules for close combat weapons never say that they're all single-handed nor do the rules for ranged weapons say that they're all two-handed.

Ghaz wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:That's what I thought - no assault or rapid fire weapons?

From the Codex Daemonhunters FAQ:

Q. Does the Callidus Assassin’s neural shredder count as a single or two-handed weapon?

A. Single-handed.

There is your single-handed Assault weapon.

The fact that they needed to clarify in an FAQ that this assault weapon that the model is carrying single-handed does in fact count as a single-handed weapon tells me that the fact that it is a single-handed weapon is not deducible from either of the two characteristics of the weapon, namely that it is an assault weapon and that the model is carrying it single-handed. Ergo, storm bolters are not single-handed weapons until an FAQ so specifies.

And yet again, you have no proof that they're two-handed either, do you? No, you do not. The rules don't tell us how many hands it takes to use.

Also note that the FAQ noting the Neural Shredder was a single-handed weapon came out at the end of 4th edition. It's not a 5th edition ruling.

EDIT: Unless somebody has a specific quote from the rulebook to support their positions then there's no reason to go through this again. That means a rule that clearly and defintively says how many hands a specific type of weapon takes to use and not just trying to infer it from other rules and FAQs or a rule that says those rules on page 37 only apply to close combat weapons instead of any type of single-handed weapon.

Ghaz wrote:
Also note that the FAQ noting the Neural Shredder was a single-handed weapon came out at the end of 4th edition. It's not a 5th edition ruling.

Yes, it is a 5th Ed. ruling. It is in a document that is currently available on the GW website titled "Daemonhunters FAQ 5th Edition".

Just because it's in the current FAQ does NOT mean it's a 'current' ruling. That ruling was made and added to the FAQ at the end of 4th edition. Either way, it does NOT support your position.

Actually Ghaz that's exactly what it means. Any rulings in the current FAQ are by definition current. When the ruling was made has no effect, only whether or not it is in the current FAQ.

Arguing whether the FAQ ruling is helpful, accurate etc is another matter, but it would be outright incorrect to state it is not current.

Ghaz wrote:Just because it's in the current FAQ does NOT mean it's a 'current' ruling. That ruling was made and added to the FAQ at the end of 4th edition. Either way, it does NOT support your position.

Isnt the fact that there is no FAQ after the one stated mean that it is the current one......... I thought that was the very definition of current.......

If there is anyone that can show that a Stormbolter is one handed, I would say it adds a +1...........that seems to be the very rule we are looking for at this point, if there is proof that it is a 2 handed weapon then the debate ends there, but if it counts as 1 handed, then I see no reason for this to continue any further.

Army Builder seems to agree that the stormbolter is a 2 handed weapon.........

And yet again, the ruling was made at the end of 4th edition. Just because it's in the current FAQ doesn't mean that they went through the FAQ and reviewed what was already there. The FAQ may be current, but the ruling is not.

The wargear section of the DH codex states that the Stormbolter is a 2 handed weapon.... cant get any more specific than that.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, the ruling was made at the end of 4th edition. Just because it's in the current FAQ doesn't mean that they went through the FAQ and reviewed what was already there. The FAQ may be current, but the ruling is not.

By that logic then the 3rd edition Dark Eldar Codex is invalid as this is now 5th ed

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, the ruling was made at the end of 4th edition. Just because it's in the current FAQ doesn't mean that they went through the FAQ and reviewed what was already there. The FAQ may be current, but the ruling is not.

Yes the ruling is current. Can you prove that they did not actually go over the rulings made in 4th? Because the onus is on you here, since the documentation says "5th edition" on it.

They have not removed handedness from the rules. It's right there on page 37 as being the only way to get the bonus +1 Attack in close combat. Where else does it say that you get a bonus +1 Attack in close combat? It's one of the biggest flaws in the game. You get the bonus +1 Attack for using two single-handed weapons, yet they don't tell us how many hands it takes to use the majority of the weapons in the new codices and only the rules for pistols default them to being single-handed. The rules for close combat weapons never say that they're all single-handed nor do the rules for ranged weapons say that they're all two-handed.

What you just said seems to back up what i said before. I said they removed handedness, then you say they didn't and then go on to complain about the lack of them specifying handedness...

Sure its a problem that they don't actually ever tell us specifically that generic CCWs are 1 handed, but i don't see the problem in the rest of what you are saying. We don't need to be told that a weapon is two handed. We just have to not be told that its 1 handed to know that we don't get a bonus attack for having it and another 1h weapon.