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We all need troop choices. It is a fact of the game. You have to pick at least two seperate choices and you need at least those few troop choices to capture objectives in 2/3 (thanks mr.N) of all standard missions played.

Imperial guard have the following options;
1) The Infantry Platoon
2) Veteran squads
3 ..we'll get to that.

Infantry squads come in at a minimum, per choice, at 130pts and 1-2 killpoints. They are easy to kill but are upgradeable (adding to the cost) massively, eventually making them technically extremely durable as far as firepower retention is concerned. Needs support.

Veteran squads come in at a minimum, per choice, at 70pts and only 1 killpoint. They are easy to kill but this can be mitgated to a degree with upgrades and can field serious firepower that is more densely confined to groups of models. Best used with larger infantry cover-shields or better yet; Chimeras.

Lastly.. the Penal legion. Comes in at a finite 80pts per squad per kill point and has no upgrades whatsoever and has medicore to moderate killing potential. Most importantly, they can outflank with thier "Scouts" USR and secondly they are stubborn which (when combined with thier possible prowess in closecombat) means thats where they will invariably survive the longest, in melee combat..
But really, when it boils down to it, what they seem to be designed best to do is capture objectives and harass the enemy. Mobility really isnt much of an issue with Scout and they are cheap. Their longevity comes from the fact they will be arriving from reservers, thus out of harms way for atleast one turn whilst the vast majority of your forces are on the field crippling the enemy.

The best option by far when you want to sink all your remaining points into Heavy armor and firepower*
*Chimeras not included.
P.s I have searched for previous penal legion posts but its direction was towards Infantry heavy armies which is comletely contary to what I envision.

Lastly.. the Penal legion. Comes in at a finite 80pts per squad per kill point and has no upgrades whatsoever and has medicore to moderate killing potential. Most importantly, they can outflank with thier "Scouts" USR

Transports are not popular just for their mobility, but for the extra firepower (MULTILAZORS) they bring to the table, and for the extra surviveability they give to the future corpses inside.

and secondly they are stubborn which (when combined with thier possible prowess in closecombat) means thats where they will invariably survive the longest, in melee combat..

So a ld9 stubborn rerollable save means nothing to you? (commissar) also, 10 guardsmen, furious charge/counter attack or not, will die in close combat to anything short of fire warriors. Furthermore, S3 I3 furious charge is far from impressive. You go from the second worse in close combat, to a bad close combat unit. And that's IF you get the charge.

But really, when it boils down to it, what they seem to be designed best to do is capture objectives and harass the enemy. Mobility really isnt much of an issue with Scout and they are cheap. Their longevity comes from the fact they will be arriving from reservers, thus out of harms way for atleast one turn whilst the vast majority of your forces are on the field crippling the enemy.

10 guardsmen will not do a lot of effective objective capturing. an infantry platoon rains down far more firepower, with far more bodies. and A mechvet squad is far more mobile, and with their transport far more surviveable.

my summary: If you want to have your troops be a meaningful part of your battles, go with the other 2 choices. If you hate winning, go with penal legionnares.

Penal legion have their uses, BUT as a support unit..and as a harrassment unit..for me in order for them to work better they should be part of a "harrassment" detachment (marbo, valks, scout sentinels) together with an astropath so that luckily they all come out by turn 2 or 3, and distract/damage the enemy enough while your main units do their job..

However, go ahead if you want to build a themed army..should be interesting..

See..this is exactly the kinda response ive found in other threads.

Chimera's are not great gunboats, they are quite weak & pretty expensive for a tank choice (at between 145-170pts). Yes they protect the troops amazingly well but the fact remains there are stronger choices in terms of shooty. And generally shootier choices, in terms of shooty (ish).

Like I said, Infantry platoons are amazingly upgradeable (this is where I was already acknowlegding commissars, many sgt power weapons, creed, etc) but it all adds points to the troop-choice which detracts from this threads title - Tank Love.

Far more mobile? How mobile do you need? Do you need to shoot meltaguns? Do you need to get within 12" of the enemy? Do you even need to be on the board to be shot at?

Reduce the scope at which you view imperial guard troop-choices, expand upon the many awesome & varied non-troop vehicle options and I think you will have a blast.

Razerous wrote:We all need troop choices. It is a fact of the game. You have to pick at least two seperate choices and you need at least those few troop choices to capture objectives in 1/3 of all standard missions played.

Don't you mean 2/3 of all standard missions played? Only Annihilation is scored on kill points.

5th edition has a lot of objective-based games. Only troops can take objectives in 5E. Therefore, why would you shortchange your troop units? All the armor in the world is only going to contest, never capture, objectives. Your only hope is to table the opponent, which is not tactics at all.

Vehicles are indeed fun. So why wouldn't you at least stick your troop options in chimeras? Yeah, its a few more killpoints but it actually gives you a shot at holding objectives, whereas penal legion troops are probably not going to accomplish much if you field them in their minimum numbers.

Razerous wrote:See..this is exactly the kinda response ive found in other threads.

Chimera's are not great gunboats, they are quite weak & pretty expensive for a tank choice (at between 145-170pts). Yes they protect the troops amazingly well but the fact remains there are stronger choices in terms of shooty. And generally shootier choices, in terms of shooty (ish).

One hundred and fort-wha? What the hell kind of chimeras do you have? With no upgrades, those things are less than 60 points, and only 65 if you buy a hunter-killer missle for them. They're quite durable for how cheap they are, so long as the enemy's to your front.

That being said, I like the penal legion. Their stubborn special rule is all that kept me from tabling someone at a tournament. Since the objectives for the tourney were kind of oddball, the enemy had already achieved all of them by turn 3, and so in order to win we HAD to table them. They got into combat with one of my defilers, which with 4+ to hit and limited attacks, couldn't finish off the unit despite two full turns of close combat. Those suckers can be worth their weight in gold!

As far as an army of them goes, I'm not so sure. What I'd do is bring a full infantry platoon with 5 squads and a command platoon in chimeras - then just dump the penal legion in the chimeras and send them off at the enemy. Let those stubborn troops hold them down for a bit, while you isolate targets with the tanks and the infantry platoon's heavy weapons. It makes for a great theme [penal legion and police guard force] and could actually be quite effective. Just send them headlong at dakkafexes, dakka tyrants, defilers, dreadnoughts, anything with few attacks and relatively low WS and just let them tie up the enemy.

And whoever said tabling the opponent isn't tactics, really? I can see a good list tabling a bad list requiring no tactics at all. But two evenly matched lists with good players have to REALLY work hard to table one or the other, because their forces should be taking a heavy toll on each other every turn of the game. Provided the lists are good, it requires proper placement of troops and application of force and target selection to get the most out of your army and gain the upper hand. These games usually don't end in tabling the enemy, but if they do, trust me a LOT of hard thought went into it.

Razerous wrote:See..this is exactly the kinda response ive found in other threads.

Chimera's are not great gunboats, they are quite weak & pretty expensive for a tank choice (at between 145-170pts). Yes they protect the troops amazingly well but the fact remains there are stronger choices in terms of shooty. And generally shootier choices, in terms of shooty (ish).

Like I said, Infantry platoons are amazingly upgradeable (this is where I was already acknowlegding commissars, many sgt power weapons, creed, etc) but it all adds points to the troop-choice which detracts from this threads title - Tank Love.

Far more mobile? How mobile do you need? Do you need to shoot meltaguns? Do you need to get within 12" of the enemy? Do you even need to be on the board to be shot at?

Reduce the scope at which you view imperial guard troop-choices, expand upon the many awesome & varied non-troop vehicle options and I think you will have a blast.

Why do you think this seriously?

Yeah you need meltaguns, ITS THE WAY OF 5E!!!! Guard can spam the living GOD out of them, DO IT!. Chimeras are also great gunboats and when it parks up to you and hits you with 3x flamers from a mechvet squad and its MULTILAZAR and HF you will be thinking what i'm thinking too. They are GREAT!!!! Tanks!!!

I know IG armies with a lot of infantry that max out their tanks, if you want to run a tank horde i'll run my Melta Guard and win. Sorry but having a bunch of vehicle squadrons is good but you need backup, heavy weapon squads in infantry squads and chimeras to block LOS etc.

You NEED good infantry, it is how you cap objectives and how you hurt other people, Penal Legion are an OK unit but if you bring 2x squads of them in a game and thats your only troops choice i'll shake your hand before the game while thanking you.

Penal Legionaires are crap. Thinking that they can be any decent in combat is wrong. Even with stubborn, the enemy will simply just kill them. They might be able to tie something up for a turn, but that is the extent of their use. I've used them a few times before, and they just suck. Sure they might be able to outflank and attack a weak unit by the board edge, but they're still going to lose against 95% of all units in combat. If you get the assault 2 lasguns ability, they only get worse. They simply aren't worth 8 points a piece. They are worse than kroot and they cost more.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Penal Legionaires are crap. Thinking that they can be any decent in combat is wrong. Even with stubborn, the enemy will simply just kill them. They might be able to tie something up for a turn, but that is the extent of their use. I've used them a few times before, and they just suck. Sure they might be able to outflank and attack a weak unit by the board edge, but they're still going to lose against 95% of all units in combat. If you get the assault 2 lasguns ability, they only get worse. They simply aren't worth 8 points a piece. They are worse than kroot and they cost more.

Umm, I think "crap" may be too strong a word.....I also have used them and they are not bad...even if they die it means something used their shots/assault versus them, which is perfect since they are meant to distract and die anyway.

Use them within their limitations, and like I said if they are used as part of a harrassment group, and not individually, they can pull off surprises...

The gunslinger ability is not bad for me....that means you can use them at range..granted versus some armies (mechanised) they may not do well, but against any foot army they can do some hurt, and may force some of his units to displace in order to reach the penal legionnaires...if so they have doen their job....

Penal legionaries are great.

IF you recognize their use on the battlefield.

They are harassment units, they are weak enough not to draw the heaviest firepower (keeping them alive), but strong enough to be a genuine thorn in the enemy's side.

Best of all they can outflank and score. This is what really sets them apart and makes them a genuine thorn.

You can't leave them alone on the field, but they don't warrant your heavy guns (but if they draw heavy guns, then your better stuff has been spared).

You have our enemy thinking of how much firepower it will take to wipe them off the board.

The important thing is that. THEY ARE NOT part of your main strategy, they are there to operate separately and make your enemy think about them.

johnjohnson wrote:Penal legionaries are great.

IF you recognize their use on the battlefield.

They are harassment units, they are weak enough not to draw the heaviest firepower (keeping them alive), but strong enough to be a genuine thorn in the enemy's side.

Best of all they can outflank and score. This is what really sets them apart and makes them a genuine thorn.

You can't leave them alone on the field, but they don't warrant your heavy guns (but if they draw heavy guns, then your better stuff has been spared).

You have our enemy thinking of how much firepower it will take to wipe them off the board.

The important thing is that. THEY ARE NOT part of your main strategy, they are there to operate separately and make your enemy think about them.

QFT.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.

Just like Ratling and marbo, they are there to unnerve you opponent and provide a target that can't be ignored but also is not deadly enough to dedicate resources to. They are cheap and worth it even if they don't make their points back (but they often will). I wouldn't stuff you list with them due to KP rules, but 1-2+ of thorn units would be good.

By letting them do their own thing, you distract the enemy from their plan, forcing them to be reactive. Letting your main force do its thing.

Im more talking about taking 2-3 units (and possibly, at games higher than 1500pts, harker and some melta vets) to act purely as harassment and objective takers. Thats 160-240pts worth of troops and thats it. 1250-1340pts worth of tank. Love it.

I don't subscribe to using penal legionaries in that fashion. 0-2 units max and are useful in filling out the second troops slot in small points game (after you have bought your large blob squad).

They derive their real power from the fact that they outflank and have a nasty random special ability (which adds to their distraction benefit). Scoring is icing on the cake and what makes them a real threat. A rogue scoring CC guard squad is running around in back field.

If you focus your full points in them, they will be easily wiped out. 3 penal squads can be taken out easily. They are one of the few units that should be played exactly as they are portrayed in the fluff.

I guess 2-3 units can be taken out easily, but thats why they only cost 8ppm (ever) and can stay deploy from reserves via the outflank manouever covering most issues with manouverability and adding to surviability.

But they wont get taken out easily as a very large proportion of the ideal army (to be fielded with these penals) is heavy armor/heavy firepower tanks which will require conserted efforts to remove.

The main point is the outflank/scout ability.

But in 2/3rd of games they are the units that matter! They will get wiped off the board as they are the main target. Thorn units survive because of their low priority nature. 5th ed is all about troops

0-2 penal legionaries are a cheap way to get more cheap scoring units that can serve as a distraction, but they are not the core of an army.

And in 2/3 of those games the units that matter most wont be around to be shot at nor will they be a point-sink allow ME to shoot at THIER troop choices for a good few turns before I need to think about defending my own. If I really need to keep them alive, I may stick them inside a valkyrie I will probably be fielding.

Three veteran squads in three chimeras, I would say, are more vunerable to death.

Although, I apologise if im sounding reactionary.

If you are trying to just fill the minimum troop requirements at minimum cost, then you may as well go with vets. At least that way you have a good chance of digging into some cover and putting down some effective shooting. If you are just looking for scoring units, I would go with two bare-bones infantry platoons. 260 points for the pair, and you get a minimum of 6 scoring units. That leaves plenty of points for your tanks, and still gives you enough flexibility in a objectives game.

I think somebody's tactics article (HBMC?) back at the release of the guard codex pointed out that penal legions could make good bodyguards for your tanks.

The idea would be to build a very tank-heavy army and rely on the treads to do the killing, and take penal legions to keep the opponent away from your vehicles--by scout/harassing, tarpitting, or hiding behind the tanks until the right moment to make a banzai countercharge versus approaching units.

They would do this job better than vets or regular platoons because their special rules make them able to do it, but mostly, as Razerous pointed out, because they're just 80 points flat for the unit. After all the upgrades you'd make on an infantry platoon or vet squad, especially mechanized, it works out cheaper-per-model, and gives you more points to spend on your tanks.

I haven't tried it or seen anybody try it, but it sounds feasible to me.

Yeah but even used like that... you'd have to take more than the minimum FOC requirement. You would have to take all 6 for that to be feasible, I imagine.

So you outflank them...then what? they can stay outflanked forever. You have to put them on the table sometime -and- you have to find a way to keep them alive long enough to win.

Sorry, two penal legions is not going to cut it.

For a infantry-based tank cover wall, Infantry platoons are the way to go because of the 'Combined squad' rule. 30 stubborn models with a re-rollable LD9 is all the tarpit you'll ever need. Sadly this costs 215pts without upgrades (and is well worth buying upgrades) meaning its a good chunk of army thus must & should do somthing useful.. which nesessitates those upgrades making the unit that much more expensive.

Using infantry platoons as units to do stuff; never get two unless you want more than 5 infantry sqauds. The Platoon command squad is a waste in terms of killpoints and a possible point sink (a great valkyrie transportee though, with meltas/flamers). One platoon and 1+ veteran/penal squads.

Its the 80pts of scoutable/outflankable men which is the crux. What do you do when you come from reserves via outflank (or standard reserves depending on objective deployement)? You engage the enemy and/or run for the objectives.

This idea of the above being suicide is a bit illogical.. with such a tiny amount of your force not prescent it allows you to bring most of it to bear and shoot the Gak™ out of the other guy. Whats left after 2-3 turns can try and deal with those penals but in reality will probably fall to thier attacks or be insuffeceint to finish em off. I thinks.

Penals don't have to be suicidal, but if you outflank them, do expect them to die. They are not strong enough or have a good transport to protect them.

Two infantry platoons is a bit too much for most games but they do have their benefits.

Remember Infantry/Veterans are core troops, Penal legions are the surprise thorn troops.

You can always leave the platoon command squad at home and order itself to hug the ground to hold the objective.

...and that is fine for Killpoint or annihilation games, but what about the other 2 out of 3 games that are objective based? You only have 2 scoring units, and any reasonably intelligent person is going to know that and do their best to prevent those units from taking anything worthwile (tarpitting them, shooting the gak out of them, breaking their morale and sending them running, etc). They don't have to necessarily destroy the penal legionnaires to keep them from accomplishing anything.

What if they have an Officer of the fleet? Or two? Your only troop option may arrive too late to do anything, and all you can hope for is a tie. Or, they get there late, but due to the lack of maneuverability (and possibly ending up on the wrong side of the table thanks to the OotF) they can't reach an objective in time. Same result- hope for a tie. Giving them first shot at all the objectives doesn't seem tactically sound... it is (almost) always harder to attack then it is to defend (at least with shooty armies like guard). Your enemies only have to take their objectives and go to ground for bonus cover saves, and they should survive long enough to make trouble for your legionnaires walking on.

I see what you are getting at... using the least amount of other stuff so you can get Max Tanks. That part of it makes sense, but the overall synergy of the army is what seems like it would be lacking. Without a solid core of troops to do the objectives work, I don't see this tactic being very effective. As others have said, penal troops can be very effective in a more supportive role, rather than your sole scoring troops taken in the minimum FOC requirement.

I love tanks too, myself, but that is why I try to stuff all my troops into chimeras. Chimeras are tanks too, after all.

IG need a solid troop base, whether that be a commissar blob horde or chim vets (or a mix). Once you have that, you can add penals and aircav to mix it up

55pt +30-45pt + 35pt blobs of points that arent going on valks, russes, artillery and hellhounds.

160-240pts vs 300-450pts vs 400pts+

Penals vs mechvets vs Infantry platoons.

I personally think IG are much better off with a solid TANK base but thats just my 2 cents. I shall leave my thread alone for now.

Everything that doesn't score is fire support, if you can't hold objectives, you can't win.

Razerous wrote:
I personally think IG are much better off with a solid TANK base but thats just my 2 cents. I shall leave my thread alone for now.

Good thing chimeras are tanks then!

I call chimeras transports, not tanks.

Chimeras in the 5th ed IG codex are an amazing option and I find it highly amusing and ironic that im about to..

And I think they are pretty weak and puny and lack firepower for the points you spend overall. Melta-type weaponary can easily be replaced by devil dogs, vanquishers, both types of Medusas and Manticores so you need not remind me that IG need to field melta weaponary.

I understand you can build a very effective force around mechvets and mechCCS but im trying to establish (and troubleshoot/varify through this thread) that you can use penals to cheaply capture objectives and field lots of fun toys in tandem.