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Oh, well in that case, I think we pretty much covered all their uses/shortcomings already. So how would the rest of your list look like? Synergy is really more important than a single unit choice in a case like this.

Razerous wrote:
I understand you can build a very effective force around mechvets and mechCCS but im trying to establish (and troubleshoot/varify through this thread) that you can use penals to cheaply capture objectives and field lots of fun toys in tandem.

in order to capture an objective you have to be on the board, within 6 inches of an objective, with no enemy units within 6 inches of that objective. Penal Legionnares will have an extremely difficult time accomplishing this. Yes, tanks are fun, but would it really kill you to spend 500-ish points on the most important part of your army?
Also, fielding fun toys for the sake of fielding fun toys is not competitive. I love my repentia, does that mean I take them to 'ard boyz and wonder why I lost? No. My boyfriend is a white scars player, and he loves vanguard vets. They are a fun unit. He leaves them at home when playing for real. You, apparently love tanks. Fine, bring 9 leman russes to a 1500 point pick-up game, nobody will care, just don't try and tell us it is the most competitive, or even a good, idea.

Razerous wrote:I call chimeras transports, not tanks.

Chimeras in the 5th ed IG codex are an amazing option and I find it highly amusing and ironic that im about to..

And I think they are pretty weak and puny and lack firepower for the points you spend overall. Melta-type weaponary can easily be replaced by devil dogs, vanquishers, both types of Medusas and Manticores so you need not remind me that IG need to field melta weaponary.

I understand you can build a very effective force around mechvets and mechCCS but im trying to establish (and troubleshoot/varify through this thread) that you can use penals to cheaply capture objectives and field lots of fun toys in tandem.

Pretty weak and puny?

You just listed 4 other tanks that you presumably deem "good" yet 3 of them have the exact same Front armor value and on is open topped to boot! For a minimal points outlay, your "lacking firepower" tank can be throwing 3 str 6, 3 str 5, 3 str 4 shots. And that thing doesn't have to squadron up with his mates, negating the effctive firepower of the army. You can only have soooo many lemans before the redundency is wasteful.

Flavius Infernus wrote:penal legions could make good bodyguards for your tanks.

I'll take a 10-man infantry squad w/ a flamer over penals for this job any day. For less than 70% of the cost of legionnaires I get a vaguely threatening weapon and I don't want my tank babysitters to last past the charge anyway. That's the whole point, in fact; their job is to move up and rapid/flame melta/PF carriers, be charged, die, and let me mash whatever charged them with the tanks they were babysitting in the first place.

Shotgun wrote:[a chimera] doesn't have to squadron up with his mates, negating the effctive firepower of the army. You can only have soooo many lemans before the redundency is wasteful.

The first point is virtually moot, as the increase in killpoints far outweighs any firepower negation you may get. Most AT is fewer than 3 shots from any given unit; very unlikely to overkill. Assault is the exception, but is a write-off for most things anyway. And no, it's virtually impossible to over-field AV14 tanks. Now, you'll likely also UNDERfield scoring units and suck a big fat tie, but unless you're fielding 9 punishers or 9 eradicators you'll always have a viable target for your russes. Exterminators, regular LRBT, and demolishers are all very capable of both transport and infantry killing.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think somebody's tactics article (HBMC?) back at the release of the guard codex pointed out that penal legions could make good bodyguards for your tanks.

The idea would be to build a very tank-heavy army and rely on the treads to do the killing, and take penal legions to keep the opponent away from your vehicles--by scout/harassing, tarpitting, or hiding behind the tanks until the right moment to make a banzai countercharge versus approaching units.

They would do this job better than vets or regular platoons because their special rules make them able to do it, but mostly, as Razerous pointed out, because they're just 80 points flat for the unit. After all the upgrades you'd make on an infantry platoon or vet squad, especially mechanized, it works out cheaper-per-model, and gives you more points to spend on your tanks.

I haven't tried it or seen anybody try it, but it sounds feasible to me.

Very very seconded. I use a Penal Legion squad for flank security. I've found that even 8 tanks take up so much space that your flanks are scarily close to the board edge. Only 2 or 3 of the 4 chimeras ever seem to move very far. The 2 russes and 2 hydras are usually pretty static on my board edge doing their fire support thing. Fielding a penal legion squad down the board edge (or in some cover nearby) means that pesky flanking CC troops can't run straight on the board and start eating my tanks. They are only a speedbump, but they do give you some time to deal with frontal threats before redeploying to meet the flank danger.

True, but a normal infantry squad can do the same.

55 points with flamer
60 with flamer/mortar
55 with GL
65 with GL/AC

All cheaper and more flexible than a penal legion squad.

Hell, even veterans are cheaper.

Penal Legion=Throrn/Distraction Unit that can score

Penal Legion=/=Core of an army, only scoring unit

Wow, no love for the penal legions on this thread, Razerous.

I see the argument in favor of penal legions as part of a larger discussion that has been taking place with various armies since the release of 5e--that where fully decked-out troop units in transports are comparatively expensive (and comparatively weak in terms of durability or firepower) that there's an option B, which is to go for fewer, cheaper troops and spend the leftover points on more killy things.

Eldar and some Tau armies went through it a long time ago, and the same discussion about space marines came up a couple of weeks ago.

What? I love penal legions, they do what they say on the tin.

Besides IG have easy access to cheap disposable troops that can act as cover for tanks. If you take peal legionares you are paying extra for an ability that is not going to help you. You want the guardsmen to get killed off, you don't want CC ability and stubborn. They get killed off and prevent an assault on your precious tanks, letting your tanks open fire on the guardsmen slayers.

*sigh*

Yes veterans are cheaper, as are Infantry squads. Sadly you have to buy two infantry squads and a PCS not including any upgrades. After upgrades they must become an intergral shooty part of your army due to point-cost.

Veterans are cheaper but again, need a chimera and atleast 30pts worth of upgrades to be at-all useful. This makes them near-double the points of a penal legion.

Penal legions, I argue, are much more flexible than either choice as they can outflank (the only thing ive reallly been banging on all this time) and thus dont need transport support and thus can work independantly from the army.

As for weak and puny chimeras (do please read my entire post before ranting) they are exactly that. AV10 on the sides and they cost 155pts for a minimum cost useful veteran unit, with meltas. That crazy awesome amount if firepower wont actually ever get used as the tank will be gunning it towards melta-range where-by its doubtful it will have that MULTILAZAR left intact.. although they are cool h.flamer platforms. Still weak and puny. Puny also means slow in my book. Its more of a concept book. The medusa makes up for being open topped (not actually a gospel fact, when you buy ECC) and CEQ (Chimera equivelent) by having awesome firepower potential.

I think two penals with a veteran squad and gunnery sgt harker with some melta & an autocannon / or 3 penals will form my troop base of my 8-vehicle tank army.

Razerous wrote:

I think two penals with a veteran squad and gunnery sgt harker with some melta & an autocannon / or 3 penals will form my troop base of my 8-vehicle tank army.

Hmmm, this is also a good way to get a viable guard army on the table relatively quickly without having to paint all those guys up-front.

What 8 vehicles are you using, Razerous?

Razerous wrote:*sigh*



I think two penals with a veteran squad and gunnery sgt harker with some melta & an autocannon / or 3 penals will form my troop base of my 8-vehicle tank army.

You be sure and let us know what happens when the objective is on the other side of the board that your outflankers came in at or stuck in the middle.

How many games have you played with several chimeras? I have played more than 10 games with at least 4 chimeras, and I do not play pure mechanised, but a combo of foot and mech (sometimes with a penal legion squad), and the most chimeras that have been killed is 3, and that was when I fielded 6....2 chimeras dead is pretty much the average, and the other 4 are basically still functional (either immobilised or 1 WD, but definitely could still contribute)....

You are not playing them well then..fielding them across the table in a straight line is folly..deploy them in a wedge (2 wedges with 6 chimeras) so that the rear ones are in cover, preferably with terrain to the side....and angled towards the opposite corner.......multiple multilaser shots is no joke, and up close heavy flamers WILL kill enemy infantry....The chimera wedges are also positioned to provide cover saves to my artillery vehicles BTW, as well as to parts of my foot gunline....

A while ago I played 2 1850 pt games, and I had 10 vehicles (all AV 12/10/10, except the vendetta)..1 versus a jetbike council with serpents and wraithlords, another versus a hestan list with 3(!!!) land raiders and 9 assault termies plus a termie librarian..won both, and really in both games no more than 4 vehicles were destroyed....some chimeras were single WD, some immobilized, but otherwise functional...but the chimeras have always done well in terms of both killing the enemy, as well as providing a credible threat so much so that my firebase is usually still intact by game end (although those assault termies nearly broke it...)

vehicles are really harder to kill! (but multiple meltas really help, as well as manticore rockets)....

Three squads (PCS+2I) are perfect for objective holding and tank defense. Plus that saves points for more penal legion squads. GLs or flamers + mortars of ACs let them also serve as light fire support to distract from your penal legion.

That is cheap minimal tank support.

1 valkyrie with MRP's
1 vendetta stock
2x Devil dogs with HHF in a squadren
1 executioner
1 eradicator
1 vanquisher with pask, lascannon and multi-melta sponsons.

I was going to field just 2 or 3 penal legionnaires but after reading replies from this post and (coincidentaly) Gwars! troop-No. thread I have decided that some infiltrating veterans are the way to go.. otherwise I wouldve had a second Eradicator.. not the most loved tank but I like it plus im scared of the hordes... But yeah, that ^^

Edit: lol thats 7 >.<

You know what put something in those flyers..even if it is more penal legion..so that they can claim something..
Good luck with your list..it is actually as thin as paper, hope it works out!

Take the multi melta sponsoons off the Vanquisher, Pask turns it into the ultimate long range tank killer, multi-melta sponsoons are only slightly better than HF sponsoons.

Paper-thin? I dont even know where thats going. I shall run away from it.

When the main cannon gets ripped off by fire and the enemy gets closer (which they will) my very expensive tank still has quite a few options. It also makes it quite a nice MC killer. Its my anti-monolith vehicle & whilst I originally planned for medusas to fill that roll, I decided to opt for the heavier varient. Do bear in mind that those MM are str9 ap1 weapons when the leman russ stands still.

Heavy flamer sponsons.. umm why? Either plasma cannons/h.bolters/nothing would serve this tank better than heavy flamers? Anyways, heavy flamers are much MUCH better on a front-hull hard-point thats a fast vehicle.

The valkyries are viable weapon platforms in thier own right but yes, I may decide to have one/both penals embarked inside the valks depending on the situation.

HF and MM sponsoons are a bad deal, that is what I meant.

Plasma sponsoons. Two S8 blasts? and 12" extra range lets it kill MCs and light vehicles who stray too close, much better choice

Yeah I was looking at eradicators too. Like penal legions it's heresy against the current popular wisdom, but makes sense for an army that isn't going to be packing tons of flamers.

There are no bad IG LR tanks (besides the Punisher), there are however three great tanks (LRBT, Demolisher and Executioner). So you have to compete against those when you choose a LR.

johnjohnson wrote:HF and MM sponsoons are a bad deal, that is what I meant.

Plasma sponsoons. Two S8 blasts? and 12" extra range lets it kill MCs and light vehicles who stray too close, much better choice

No its not, not when you factor pask into it.

Besides Pask makes a tank very expensive, it is best to cut costs down. Those MM could be used for many different things.

The longer range on the PC make them worthwhile, the blast gives it flexibility to kill infantry.

Dont you understand the term context.

How much infantry killing blast/template action have I got going on elsewhere in those tanks listed? Pask is worth being made expensive for the benifits he provides. Its usually worth keeping costs down on tanks I agree.

Lol you can't win huh, Razerous? I think your MM sponsons on the Vanquisher are fine. Pask may be overdoing it a little, but hopefully you keep that tank out of reach so it doesn't get taken apart at first opportunity. A caution... watch out for deepstrikers. Tau stealth suits got my Russ last tournament I went to because I neglected to keep a rearguard for the russ.

The "Paskquisher" is pretty nice as well.

Actually, Pask with a Punisher could be pretty tasty too. What with Heavy bolter sponsons. That's like 29 shots from Heavy Bolters all at BS4. Hell if you sit still, aren't they all S6 too?!?!!?

And Plasma Cannons are good for Pask because they scatter less, and Plasma Cannons are very good anti-deepstrike defence.

As is an executioner.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in some of the arguments posted here for penal legion.

They do not take fire away from your tanks, because anything with anti-tank weaponry will not be firing at them. Put them up against another guard army with everything in chimeras and they can be ignored the entire game until it is time to tank shock them off an objective.

By saturating the table with mech, you take the fire away from your killing tanks. In addition, each of those vehicles can potentially shoot at a different target. Wouldn't that be better than relying on 6-7 single vehicles to do all of your army's damage? What happens when you lose three to an opponent's anti-tank by the end of turn two?

Mechanized guard work really well. Foot guard work really well. Even a bit of a mix works well. Having a bare minimum of troops and a small number of ultra-killy tanks will not work. You are basically giving your opponent a short list of priority targets to focus.

He is right about the Veterens though, they look like a steal at 70pts but I've found the functional cost to be between 155~230.

Unmounted (or un-infiltrated) and without special weapon focus they don't warrant purchase over a regular infantry squad or the penile legion.

Fearspect wrote:Wouldn't that be better than relying on 6-7 single vehicles to do all of your army's damage?

Exactly how many "tanks" do you assume you can get into a 1500pt force?

I have no clue why you are quoting tanks like I am talking about something ridiculous or focusing on 1500 points as a limit. Yes, at less points you would have less in your army, and the problems I addressed above would be even more glaringly obvious.