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My friends and I are currently running a campaign, and we decided on a rule that says "no special characters".

However, one of the players recently switched armies from Eldar to Necrons, and is now calling the rule unfair.

His argument is that by disallowing special characters, we are denying Necrons an essential part of their force (the C'tan), what he referred to as "a tough, reliable CC unit." He claims that this only applies to Necrons because every other army's special characters are essentially upgraded leaders without bringing anything truly different to the table, like Calgar being a fancy Chapter Commander. He finally ended the argument by telling the rest of the players if we did not remove this unfair rule, he would quit the campaign.

So my question is... are C'tan really necessary for high points Necrons to be effective? Couldn't the role of a reliable CC unit be fulfilled by something else in the Necron list, like Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Pariahs, or Tomb Spiders?

C'Tan are actually really easy to deal with. You can either outrun them or just throw sniper shots at them until they die. Necrons need to shoot and be tough.

Why not allow everyone 1 special character? Or boot the whinny bitch?

Never used one.

In my opinion, for whatever that's worth:

As Necrons our options can be broken down to gold, silver, and bronze. We have 3 golden options, 5 silver, and 4 bronze. None are crap.

The golden options are Destroyers, Monolith, and C'tan (either C'tan). The C'tan are in the top tier when it comes to close combat (right up there with Abaddon and Nobz) so they definitely fill a gaping hole for Necrons. But they are not necessary. Enough Monoliths (screening/extra We'll Be Back rolls) and Destroyers (speed/anti-infantry/anti-tank) will allow the army to be plenty effective. The Necron list will be built around maneuvering to disallow as much HtH and enemy fire as possible while maximizing your own firepower.

The silver units of the Necron Lord, Heavy Destroyers, Tomb Spyders, Scarabs, and Immortals are all maneuverable options. The Spyders are also great at buffering the enemy advance. Have them make a Scarab for extra wounds at T 6 and a cover save, and they do pretty well.

The bronze units of Warriors, Pariahs, Flayed Ones, and Wraiths are a little more difficult to handle, but they can shine in different circumstances. I usually leave them at home...except for the Warriors.

C'tan aren't necessary. Necrons are limited in what they can do, but the C'tan open more strategical and tactical possibilities. That does not make them necessary.

My 1750 list at my LGS league

Necron Lord w/ Warscythe, Gaze of Flame, Resurrection Orb, Solar Pulse
4x 10 Warriors
2x 4 Destroyers
5 Scarabs w/ Disruption Fields
2x 1 Heavy Destroyer
Monolith

Now this isn't what I would take to a GT, but I stay competitive against Orks, Marines, Tau, Chaos, and Eldar with this...with no C'tan.

If the guy can't win without the C'tan, then he needs to go back to Eldar.

You do not need the C'tan to win with Necrons. There are many builds which excel without them. However C'tan can be used very in well in certain builds.

Why have you forbidden spec char anyway? Especially in the newer codices, they unlock army builds.

Don't know about Necrons, but the main rule should be to have fun.

If a player in your group feels disadvantaged, why not remove the special character ban and see how it goes? It'll keep a person happily playing, and you might find the game more dynamic when you don't cut out some of the most interesting units out there. If SCs really do overwhelm your tables, maybe after a few games with the C'Tan, your Necron player will agree to leave him and go back to the No SC's rule.

He's probably upset that he bought, assembled and painted a real cool C'Tan model and now he can't use it. That's understandable. I'm also not sure I understand the ban on SC. I've seen some game clubs post that rule. They aren't game breaking if everyone can use them. If it's for story purposes that's another issue.

No they are not necessary. They are a big points sink and only should be taken if you have points to spare. Also in smaller point games they are nearly impossible to kill if your not expecting them.

I like this set up for a campaign and had a similar situation occur. I had a friend say it was unfair that he could not bring Eldrad and Yuriel. He argued that Eldrad was his armies linch pin and a regular farseer would not cut it as it doesn't do the same job (he brings him even in 500 point games). Instead of getting into a lengthy argument with him we made the restriction that players have to "earn" the special character. We were using vetran abilities and if they earned 2 abilities on the same HQ then they could be upgraded to a special character for the rest of the campagin. The campaign was had a gradual points increase, started at 500 then went to 1000 then 1500, 1850 and then finally 2000. However due to unforgiving work schedules we did not get past the 1500 point level as games were not occuring.

I think at 1500pt games and higher, possibly even 1000pt games and higher, SC's are fine and are an intergral part of dynamic armies.

I dont see how eldrad could ever be a threat at 500pts. There are hardly any points left for him to force-multiply and he is horribly slow for an eldar unit. It is a poor reason to cite for the ban on SC's.

If a group of players cant build general army lists capable of handling SC's and elite units or cant handle facts like an extremely melta-heavy vulkan list will always have the advantage against an all-mech army then they need to ask themselves some serious questions or better yet.. Come on dakka and learn some TAKTICS

or maybe you shouldnt take vulkan melta/flamer spam cheese in a friendly competition?

A necron list without a C'tan is like an Eldar list without an avatar. It is not essential, but some powerful builds can be built around it.

Although it seems to me that of all the lists out there, the one that needs the least exclusions is the Necron. They're about the least dynamic force out there.

Wow, I find myself totally in agreement with Initiatie_Gus. How rare is that?

C'tan is one of the best things in the book, certainly it helps the crons more than Lysander helps marines or Abaddon helps CSM. Whether that means you should allow it, I dunno. Rule of thumb is to get games in by any means necessary.

C'tans, as a whole, are pretty disappointing I've noticed. They're beast when they get to you... eventually. Like many others say, they die quickly to shots and they also lower your phase out significantly in lower points games.

One thing the necrons can't afford is point sinks, a c'tan is at least 300 pts, a monolith is almost the same as a land raider. Every big nasty in a necron army means it is that much easier to phase out, Necrons are the opposite of 'nids in that you

DONT SHOOT THE BIG ONES!

The C'tan is great if you like a paperweight that helps your opponent phase out faster. If your opponent stays 12 inches away from Nightbringer, they'll have an easy time dismantling your army because it'll be that much smaller.

He'd be better off to drop the C'tan and just get more Necrons.

Why don't you guys just change the rules to "no special characters in games smaller than X" I'd say 1500 is a good level to start including them.

If you want a head breaking CC Necron unit, just get:
Destroyer Lord, Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Warscythe...for giggles put him with 3 Wraiths.

The Deciever is not necessarily a waste in 5th. 40ke did well with him, and the Necrons often need something capable of winning a melee combat. Nothing else in the codex will fight in melee that well, and you can't just teleport away anymore.

Warrior suck now. Terrible. You want to take as few as you think you can get away with.

The Grog wrote:The Deciever is not necessarily a waste in 5th. 40ke did well with him, and the Necrons often need something capable of winning a melee combat. Nothing else in the codex will fight in melee that well, and you can't just teleport away anymore.

Necron Lordies can kick ass in melee, are much more mobile with destroyer platforms, and count as Necrons. Throw some wraiths in with him, and he's a decent melee force.

Warrior suck now. Terrible. You want to take as few as you think you can get away with.

True that. They should just make the gauss blasters Heavy 2 and make Warriors S&P.

The Grog wrote:The Deciever is not necessarily a waste in 5th. 40ke did well with him, and the Necrons often need something capable of winning a melee combat. Nothing else in the codex will fight in melee that well, and you can't just teleport away anymore.

Warrior suck now. Terrible. You want to take as few as you think you can get away with.

This seems poorly thought out to me and here is why
1. I find the lord to be cheaper but still able to hold his own in CC
B. With a monolith you can still teleport out of CC
3. I love warriors i run at least 3 units of 10-15, you need them to stop phase out

I won't argue that the lord isn't a viable CC option, especially when paired with Wraiths and a Monolith or 2. They can fight any unit with a low or medium combat ability with moderate success. Something like 40" assault range with a smartly placed portal. And a healthy bevy of attacks at high STR from the Wraiths for rear armor smacking, and some Warscythe to help chop through a pair of 2+ Armor or INV saves. Maybe split the Wraiths off so the opponent isn't getting a cover bonus for that part of the combat, or to assault a pair of weaker targets...

Fearless swarms will hold them all game or kill them, so they don't count. Oh, and you can't pair these oafs agains a Seer Council on Jetbikes, or a Nob Biker squad, or some other stuff I'm probably not thinking of with good Inv. saves or Power Weapons. Carnifexes and Tyrants and Avatars and Wraithlords aren't easy to wound with that lower STR on the lord either. You'd need support from Scarabs or Tomb Spyders or something for a chance at any of this stuff.

Not with Big D. I would take him to any battle ever. There is (almost) nothing to be afraid of with Big D or the Nightbringer. Some would argue that nothing in the game is as good in CC as these guys. Which begs the question, when you have the best in your pocket, why not take them out and show them around a bit. Maybe not every time, but a healthy smattering of C'Tan never hurt anyone. People like to say that Phase Out is inevitable when you spend that much on a C'Tan, but after trimming a Lord and a few extra models the change in Phase Out isn't that large, and the added protection to your Phalanx can more than compensate.

heartofiron wrote: because every other army's special characters are essentially upgraded leaders without bringing anything truly different to the table

He's talking out of his @$$. Besides, I have looked at lots of Necron tactica, and I actually never saw a strong recomendation that "YOU NEED A C'TAN!!!" He can get by fine without one.

I agree with Starbomber, one can easily get by without a C'Tan, but I don't like to hear people argue that he's no good. There are many ways to use him in a quality list.

sniperjolly wrote:One thing the necrons can't afford is point sinks, a c'tan is at least 300 pts, a monolith is almost the same as a land raider. Every big nasty in a necron army means it is that much easier to phase out, Necrons are the opposite of 'nids in that you

DONT SHOOT THE BIG ONES!

Definatly true! Played a Necron list last week, and in 1500 I took Lord w/ Destroyer Body + Warscythe and Res Orb, three 10XWarriors, two 4XDestroyers, two 2XHeavy Destroyers and 2 Tomb Spiders. Jetbike spam really seemed to work out quite nice and i came to realise that IMO C'tan and Monoliths, especially used together, seem quite a liability.

If you guys think a Necron Lord is actually capable in CC, I have to wonder what you end up fighting against. DLords with proper kit are good ... compared to Necron choices.

Most dedicated assault units will roll over him, Wrath escort wasting a FA slot or not. T6 is just about his sole saving grace. WS 4, I 4 is a big problem, as is the lack of any way to get to 4 A base. He's not a good CC character due to the unexceptional offensive stat line despite the S5 unless you are hunting other HQ characters who don't have powerfists or units with invulnerable saves. Lords just don't have the same wound generating power as, say, anybody with Lightning Claws. A Staff helps, but then you are boned if you come up against something dangerous with an invulnerable save.

Big D, on the other hand, will give most assault elements pause. They'll be far less likely to be willing to commit while in his threat reach, because he WILL kill them while a DLord + Wraiths MIGHT kill them and take losses in the process. T8 is going to be unassailable except by poisoned weapons and powerfists. He'll deal 2.22(2.78 on charge) wounds on I5 to anything under T8. The Wraiths will deal 3.75(5) wounds on I6 vs. T4 or less, but allow armor saves. So 1.875(2.5) or less vs any good CC unit except Orks, although that I6 does beat a lot of Eldar. The Lord deals 1(1.33) warscythe wounds on I4T4. That means you have a more fragile unit but ~20% more damaging unit that takes up 2 slots for equal or MORE points (300 for D vs. 123 + 170+), and you are weighing turbo boost against the awesome power of Misdirect. Many assault units will gleefully charge your DLord + Wraiths if they get the chance, and do a pretty good job of killing them. Banshees probably won't and Genestealers might not. Few willingly charge a C'tan, and D can just wave goodbye and get free movement from it. Admittedly, many CC units will die if they receive a charge from another dedicated CC unit. You'd have a better argument if you could field 5 or 6 Wraiths in a unit. The lack of shooting also adds up, most everybody else can depend on getting a wound or two from pistols.

He's also really useful and very mobile. Far more so than the Nightbringer, who is slow and can be bogged down. I wouldn't take a C'tan in a warrior/immortal heavy list, but with Monoliths and Destroyer spam the Deceiver also dilutes enemy heavy weapons fire.

Warrior units are little more than big scoring targets that have 'Charge Me' written on them in 5th. The price for losing in melee is just too high.

A 10 man Assault Marine Squad with a LC Sgt costs 220. No other upgrades. If they charge the DLord + Wraths unit, they shoot for 2/3rds of a unsaved wound on Wraiths and 2 hits on the Dlord that have a vanishingly low chance to do anything. Charge for full contact since the Wraiths are big and the Dlord is on a flying base. Wraiths deal 1.25 wounds on the Marines. Everything else is I4, so the DLord also deals 1 wound. 7.75 Marines attack 23.25 times, 11.625 wounds, 1.937 past the Wraiths' save. The Sgt could attack either target, dealing .5 wounds to Wraiths or .3 wounds to a DLord with invun. Powerfist Sgt would do .41 wounds to Wraiths or .625 to the Dlord. Likely tie. If the Necrons lose a Wraith, it's 1.97 v ~2.55.

Running the opposite way, the Necrons deal 3 wounds to the Marines and take back 1.3 unsaved wounds plus either .375 or .229 wounds from a LC Sgt or .278 or .416 from a Pfist Sgt. The Necrons win half the time by 1 wound. And vanilla ASMs are bottom of the barrel when it comes to specialty assault (and at an 80 point disadvantage).

Adding Plasma Pistols complicates things, as the choice of where to take the plasma hit matters. If allocated to Wraiths the chance of loosing a Wraith goes to .77. Putting it on the DLord causes his chance of taking a wound to shoot to .44 but won't affect combat unless several rounds go by. Flamer effects depend heavily on placement. Could be 2 hits each, could be 4. Long term in all cases the combat swings on WBB rolls, as the Necrons are losing 2 of their 3 Wraiths and nearly half their combat power in the first round regardless of charging or getting charged. Second round with 1 WBB roll made yields 1.833 wounds for the Necrons and ~1.4 wounds for the Marines. Further combat is difficult to estimate due to the extreme importance of WBB rolls and if the Sgt gets wounds though the Wraiths' save.

Trading 2 Marines for a character varies a lot. On the charge, the new ASM unit deals 1.43 wounds + ~.55 (avg) for the Sgt. A Chaplain will deal .74 wounds + .826 from the rest of the unit on the reroll. A Librarian's total depends on powers, and would deal .55 wounds base. A Null Zone Librarian (unlikely I think) would deal .916 wounds + ~1.1 for the squad. A Might Librarian would deal .925 wounds to Wraiths or .833 to the DLord. Trading 1 more Marine for a Captain with LC would have him dealing .833 vs. Wraiths or .5 vs. the DLord. A Relic Blade Captain would be dealing .74 wounds vs. Wraiths or .666 against the DLord. Minus .25 for the missing Marine. Any of these will win by 1 wound most of the time.

The Deceiver will take .375 wounds per combat round if the enemy has a power fist, and can leave combat whenever he pleases.

My friend has the deciver in his necron army i admit he was tough in CC most my units couldnt even wound him but using BL i reduced him to 1 wound before he got anywhere, i wouldnt say theyre nesscesary.

The Grog wrote: I wouldn't take a C'tan in a warrior/immortal heavy list, but with Monoliths and Destroyer spam the Deceiver also dilutes enemy heavy weapons fire.

I can't see how a Monolith/Destroyer spam army woulden't get tabled first turn, DOW maybe? Or if the monoliths arn't deepstriking I suppose. With MultiMonos, Destroyer spam AND a c'tan I cant see more than 30 "necrons" (10 destoyers and 20 warriors) so 1st turn, I see how many earthshaker rounds I can put into your warriors. It might even take until you get in range of bolter/lasgun fire, but they will phase out fast. In fact, going for the phase out would be a much better idea than actually trying to grab the objectives, even for the most fast, anoying "contest at the last minute" armys.

You keep the Warriors in reserve and field the other walkers behind the Monoliths. Check the army that 40kenthusiast took to 'ard Boys, it's over in battle reports I think.