Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have been using raptors and bikers (two of the meh units in codex:csm) to pretty good effect for a while. I made great improvements through playtesting and advice from local players. Knowing the level of knowledge here on dakkadakka, I decided to build a fluffy and effective raptor list with the community.

Raptors are ok, but they really shine in large numbers when the marks are only a couple of points per model.
I have used all of the marks and crunched the numbers, and nurgle wins out easily. The biggest issue is that in large numbers, they are caught standing after combat a lot, and T5 just keeps more of them alive to hit the next target. I have killed innumerable transports that 20 raptors swooped in and surrounded. Pop transport gone AND everything in it. Weather a turn of shooting, and 15 raptors fly over and molest something else.

Remember, everything should have mark/icon of nurgle. We are going for 3 lists - 1500, 1750, and 2000. So, without further adue, here is where we should start:

HQ
DP, MoN, Warp Time
Chaos Lord, MoN, wings, meltabombs, plaguebringer
Chaos Sorcerer, MoN, wings, meltabombs, winds of chaos, rot, or doombolt
Summoned Greater Daemon - more useful than many think. With raptors/bikers as a delivery tool, he can come in right where you need him a good deal of the time and man, when he hits right he is a game breaker.

Those seem to be the best choices for HQ - what do we do here?

Elite
I haven't used any of the elite slots. Here are the best options I see...
Terminators - 3 man combi melta termicide squad? 5 man 4 x combi plasma, chainfist, heavy flamer in a raider?
Chosen - 5 man outflanking melta squad? 10 man infiltrating combat squad?

Troops
CSM - 10 with a MoN, PF champ, and 2 meltas in a rhino? Redundant to the superior plague marines...
Plague Marines - yes please. 7 in a rhino with a pf champ, 2 x melta and/or 7 in a rhino with 2 x plasma
Lesser Daemons - maybe - dropping on the icons and assaulting is not a bad thing, but they are a bit overpriced...

Fast Attack
Raptors - 20 with MoN, champ w/ pf, 2 x melta - that is the best build I have found for them - at 510 points you get 20 T5 models that should mow through any troop in the game with minimal casualties. Add a winged lord and it is pure hate. Draws a LOT of fire. Does a LOT of damage.
Bikes - 5 bikes with MoN, a naked champ, and an attached sorcerer or lord on a bike is a great greater daemon tool. They are fast, tough, survivable, and draw the s8+ fire away from the rest of your army.

Heavy
Defiler - with a DP, 20 raptors, 5 bikers, and oblits on the board, he just doesn't get the attention an opponent needs to give him. It is target saturation at it's finest - what do you want to hit your lines? A greater Daemon with a charging mob of bikers? A defiler? Plasma cannon shots from oblits?
Vindicator - too short range for this list. They will have too long to address other issues and still kill it before it becomes a valid threat.
Land Raider - good for terminators and additional target saturation, but expensive.
Oblits - mandatory. I run 1 squad of 3 or 2/2 and they are great at popping transports. Troops come out, raptors and/or bikers chew up the yummy soft insides.
Predator - cheap and nice against hordes, but not too effective with this in your face build.

Those ar emy thoughts, throw your logic and list out there. Improve on what you see - let's get three solid refined lists as a group.

Huh actually looks like they work as a good distraction tool. I myself was modding some raptors up, cause 45 bucks for 5 of them is an irrational buy, and was trying to decide if i was to use them then how to use them and use them as a scare tactic squad... but no need you did all the play testing for me and it looks like a really viable way to play them thanks!

Yea, I have 20 of the old school winged raptors - I wheeled and dealed to get them a few at a time, but I have like 20 buxks in the lot of them.

Interesting builds. Ive been shying away from large unit fast choices and generally going one or two min units with special weapons. They can be a very effective, one shot only, unit.

Dont have the models for a 20 unit blitz, but might get a squad of 10 together and see how she goes.

In your suggested builds, try infiltrating chosen - either specialsts assault/meltas or generalists (plasma/flamers). With an in-your-face army like this (the whole thing advancing on mass or DSing in), it might not hurt to infiltrate a squad close in that the opponent MUST take care of, reducing the fire on your advancing Raptor squad.

Do you have pics of your raptors?

I used reg. CSM and trimmed the backpacks down and used vespid wings and filled gaps with GS. Still a WIP.

@Inigo Montoya:

Dp’s are always good.
That lord is meh, but a bit better than the other lords.
Sorc: meh, doombolt should not exist in the HQ choices IMO.
Greater Daemon…..so you want to sack your Ld 10 to drop to ld 9, with no re-rolls and loss of the only fist in a squad of 20 raptors?
And the champion has to be up front for this to work, and it better not be Dawn of War……I don’t know, lots of issues before the GD even takes the field.

Termies: termicides are meh, but efficient.
So many shooty stuff and in a raider? No, just deepstrike them like the termicides…
Chosen: combat squads infiltratin don’t work, unless you have lash.
5 man outflank: meh, 2 soft kill points thrown into the list, no thank you.

CSM w/ ICON of Nurgle: yes, just go with plague marines, agreed.
Meltas, flamers, and plasma all work on rhino squads.
Lesser daemons: because you’d run more raptors I’d advise against them.

At 2000 in my army I can go for:
10 Raptors, 2 Melta, 2 Lightning Claws, IoCG or 20 lesser daemons: I go for lesser daemons every time. Raptors seem so: spikey Smurfs.

Fast attack:
Bikes: ehh, still so expensive with the icon. You’d be better off with more raptors or better yet more plague marines.

Hvy:
Defiler: meh, you could have it or not. It’s still a huge target…. Why would Anti tank weapons going after the GD with a 4++ or the bikers with 3+ cover, oblits with 4+ cover, or the defiler that’s so huge and won’t get cover unless smoking, which means no battle cannon shooting…/shrug.

Vindi: like any pie plate weapon, not so great for an army that actually wants to approach very quickly.

Land Raider: meh.

Oblits: same old, same old.
_______________________

They are icons...not marks on non-plague marines, just a technicality.
In addition, surrounding a transport is not auto kill on the squad inside.

If it explodes they stay within the wreck. If the raptors kill the vehicle, they can charge into the fight as well. There is a raw issue is they fire, fail, and then something else blows it up.
If you explode the tank in combat, (if they pass pinning) it actually gives them a turn to shoot/charge of their own.

In addition, large squads have issues with space, congestion, being annoying to maneuver.
Pie plates will still rip chunks out of them as IoN will most likely be of little use against those.
The issue with such big squads is that it’s liable to be clipped. Yes there are counter attacks, but you’ll prob. not get you full amount of attacks the first round.
And with no positive leadership buffs, you could be testing leadership 7-8 on a 20 man squad.
510 points.
That’s 3 Leman Russes with some bling.
3 Defilers, 6 Obliterators with change.
It’s a blinged out Jetbike Seer Council.
It’s a loyalist bike squad with khan and 2 techmarines.

Hell you could just have 2 lash sorc and just keep throwing them in and out of dangerous terrain… then end up in bunched up position for some money shot pie plates.

It’s worth trying and having fun with, but there are glaring issues with an unwieldy squad that is worth that much and has issues with:
-Morale, ld 10/9 tops it, but gak happens, ask the necron players. Combat can go south very fast. Pinning can be hugely annoying.
-Clipping (offensive or defensive) (in addition, fist champs can’t be everywhere).
-Overkill (getting shot in the face).
-Loss of flexibility, can’t react efficiently as you have to dedicated the whole squad to do something.
-Loss of 2 special weapons.
-Loss of second champ.
-Not scoring, taking points away from other FoC’s.
-multiple combat can go super great or super bad.
-Pie plates, congestion, Lash.
-IG pycher battle squad, Medusas.
-Khorne Daemons in general.
-Sniping events (champion death) Mind war, mind worm, Vindicare Assassin, Mephiston’s Gaze, Telion.
-Difficult terrain is annoying for them, Thunder Fire cannon can make them count as in terrain.
-Stuff like plague marines can receive a charge, and prob. live for the counter attack stuff to help them out.
-Something like a Wraithlord or Ironclads would tarpit them well enough, relying on just the fist champ to get wounds in.
Just some things to avoid if you want to use a 20 man raptor squad.

My 7 Cents.

Much of what you said applies to nearly any unit in the game. That doesn't nullify the effectiveness of 20 raptors. The best use I have found for them is countercharging a unit my bikers have tied up.

Yea they end up standing around after combat a lot, but that is addressed with the IoN - T5 lives through shooting pretty well. You have to lose 11 to force a morale check, and 11 t5 models are damned hard to kill in a turn unless you shoot everything at them. If you shoot everything at them, then you are shooting nothing at 1500 points of chaos rushing at you.

As I previously said, I am not debating the usefulness of raptors - I have found them very potent. I am trying to get everyone to work together on a build that capitilizes on their strengths.

Umm....20 x 25% = 5.
So it would take 6 kills to force a morale check.
___________________

Which is not hard. Hell I use plague marines all my 40K life, T5 is not hard to kill.
My pm's fall alot and they are in cover.
If pm's fall, raptors would prob. fall twice as fast if not at the same time.

1500 points of chaos...well... it's not hard to kill 6 T5 marines a turn, and you don't have to dedicate an army to do that.
Some random passing shots and a pieplate or two. Then still have the more single shot AT weapons hit the rhino's and such.
So ... is this a 2000+ point game now?

Well......I usually strengthen my units by pointing out weaknesses of said unit.

A 20 man squad of MEQ is a very unique thing, and much of the things I noted down near the end of my post are not always an issue with say 10 man squads.

Issues like clipping, 10 man squads will have 1-2 guys out of comabt, squads of 10 will have 8-10 out of range if you take a spread out formation in responce to pie plates and such.

The loss of champions and special weapons, not only loss but less.
A 20 man squad could have been 2 squads, adds flexibility and more slots for champs and special weapons.

If you work to avoid and deal with the weaknesses aren't you strengthening them?

As for capitilizing on their strengths:
-They are only 1 kill point....can't do much there.
-you can conga line later in the game, they don't score but they can contest, but chances are you'll not be in that sort of situation.
-you have a large squad that covers alot of space, they can effectively deal with a flank of infantry. You can sort of do a net vs. deepstriking hvy armies.

My 7 Cents.

This is all super interesting. Make an article! Then the discussion thread will be more or less "archived" and Chaos players for a year or two to come can benefit.

Alright, if you are going 20 MoN Raptors as the base of the army...

1. Minimize vehicles... try to go with a lot of infantry.
2. You have a great delivery system for greater/lesser deamons, terminators and obliterators...
3. Raptors present a problem dealing with highly mechanised forces.

Troops:

2 minimum units of plague marines... their job is to contest/control objectives in or near your deployment.
Arm with plasma rifles so that they can support from medium range.

2-4 lesser demon units. They are troops, they can control objectives and of all the things you have, they are the least threatening.

2 x 2 obliterators.. they are just too flexible not to play.
if you really want the firepower, add a 3rd one. You really don't want or need any other type of heavy choice.

Terminator units or chosen. Again put the onus on your opponent to make good target selections. Maximize your choices not your unit sizes. 5-7 chosen with 5 special weapons can infiltrate or outflank to support your raptor assault. I am not a fan of HTH chosen but that might be viable also. Other option would be 3 small multi-purpose terminator forces. Say 2 combi-meltas, 1 heavy flamer, 2 with power weapons and one with a chainfist to pop tanks. 120 points gets you 3 without a mark. Do that 2 or 3 times and they get good fire up close to support your raptors with fire or close combat.

The tough one to me is HQ choices... DPs survive well but a lord or sorc can insert into a squad... Termie armor
or a jump pack to bolster your assault.

My biggest must would be to avoid vehicles as no matter what, I have to expose 20 raptors so might as well diminish my opponent's payoff for lascannons and melta weapons as much as possible. As soon as I put out a defiler or a landraider, I am giving a purpose to his AT weapons. I would rather he satisfy himself with firing Railguns at individual marines the whole game. That means my biggest issue is how I deal with pie-plate armies like IG leman russ squadrons or valkyries...

I'd run that list for sure.


...but make it a bit khornate since its pretty damn "in your FACE yo!" style

Why so many min sized squads ballooning the Kill points when you have the chance to keep it low?

Lascannons still have a decent target: the oblits and plague marines. Though not ideal they still get utility out of melta/lascannons.

My 7 Cents.

I've been trying bikes the last week or so with mixed results.

I NEVER mark them. Ever. Marks are too expensive for what I see as a scout/tank hunter squad.

I always run them with 2x meltas or 2x flamers. Always. Turbo boost to their target, unleash the fury of chaos. Wrecked a LR and killed 3 scouts turn 2 last game I played.

My MAJOR issues with bikers is any good assault squad will wipe the bikers off the board, guarenteed. I had a winged tyrant fly over and knock out both my biker squads without taking a wound! Even if they had MoN its not a justification for the points.

Raptors are an interesting idea, but soooooooooooooooo expensive for what they do :/ If i had some I'd maybe try it in 4000+ point games where they could be used to effect, but otherwise, meh...

Overall interesting views!

I have had good luck with 5 bikers (1 naked champ) and a sorcerer all with MoN. If you have enough target saturation, then the flyrant should have to address other, more pressing issues than 6 bikers. I stay out of combat until turn 3 - turboboost close in 2 and hit on 3. That means that the greater daemon most likely will be out by then.

I love raptors, good to see a list that has them besides mine. I put mine with my chaos lord/sorc with wings and have a really effective cc unit with meltas for more punch. they can take down almost anything and make excellent units for counter-charging. Letting someone charge my plague marines/reg csms and then swarming them with raptors from a flank or rear has been the end of many of my opponents' units.