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So it just occurred to me that Flash Gitz can have a Painboy, which means Feel No Pain, and the option of Invulnerable saves if they feel like wasting their ill-gotten wealth on things like a flash pair of new legs. This makes Snazzguns with Blasta much more viable, since they're get a 4+ armour save, and then a 4+ Feel No Pain roll. This would mean that 2/6 times the unit fires you could expect AP1. Combined with the other boosts, and that could make for some aggressive shooting.

430 points for a ten man mob with the More Dakka, Shootier and blastas upgrade. They also have a painboy.

For 430 points I can almost get two 30 man squads of shoota boys kitted out with a Nob and rokkits. For less than that, I can get nine Killa Kans with an upgrade of your choice.

If you give them invulnerable saves, they cost even more.

So?

So....why take the most one of the most overpriced and useless units in the codex and make them cost even more? It is really a rather silly concept.

You are much better off taking those same points and fielding uniquely equipped, scoring Nobs with PKs, Painboy, Cybork, and a Waagh! banner in the squad. They will live far longer (because of wound allocation), kill more in CC than Gits can in both shooting and CC combined, and they can be scoring.

Gits are a unit with CC stats, but are saddled with guns trying to make them shooty. Everyone who supports using them believes that they are getting the best of both types of units. In reality, you end up with the worst. Shoota Boys and Lootas both outperform Gits in shooting, for the same points...and Nobs are far more effective in CC.

If you want a killer expesive unit, take Nobs.
If you want to shoot, take Lootas.
If you want to lose.....by all means waste over 400 points on Flash Gits.

Don't get me wrong, you can make some great conversions for Gits, and they can be entertaining. However, they are one of the least competitive choices in the entire dex.
Like I pointed out in another thread, not only are they a waste in points (because other units perform better) but they also waste a valuable heavy support slot that could be filled with Kans or BWs...heck, even Boomwagons will usually outperform Gits.

Why would I take them... Maybe because I disagree with your assessment that they are the most overpriced and useless unit in the Codex?

If I have used up my Elite slots for other units, or I already have five units of Nobs, then Flash Gitz give me access to another unit of Nobz.

So, so what if Shoota Boyz and Lootas outperform them in shooting? Shooting what, really? When? Lootas only outperform Flash Gitz at shooting when they haven't move, and Flash Gitz can shoot while moving. They don't have the volume of fire that Shoota Boyz do, but they have considerably higher quality of fire, don't compete with either Lootas or Shootas for FOC slots, and their Gitfindas are incredibly useful for maximizing the firepower of both of those units.

I think that if you don't see their utility, you haven't really looked at their synergy with other shooting units. You can pretty much use them to map out where, who, and when you want to shoot.

They also combine well with other unpopular units like Weirdboyz, as they're perfect for a Deep Strike unit, and an escort for the Weirdboy.

I'd say that they're the perfect Ork unit to go shooting up Terminators, Plague Marines, Obliterators, Wraithguard, Battlesuits, etc. The reason I raising the point about Painboyz is that, for the most part, I had seen their utility limited to providing a spotting unit for other Ork shooting units, particularly short-ranged units like Shoota boyz. Since the addition of a Painboy protects them from Gets Hot!, they can be used much more aggressively.

Nurglitch wrote:
If I have used up my Elite slots for other units, or I already have five units of Nobs, then Flash Gitz give me access to another unit of Nobz.

If you have done all that, then you really don't have the points to be spending willy-nilly on Flash Gits. You made my point without even trying.

Trust me, I have tried making Gits work. I really, really wanted them to be useful. Unfortunately, for the cost of a tricked out Gits squad you can get 2 full squads of Lootas. 30 Lootas (thanks to their 48" range and decent deployment) will always outshoot 10 Gits...even at Termies and their likes. As for Gitfindas? Wow...any 40k player worth their salt can eyeball shooting distances. If you think that Gitfindas can in anyway justify their cost, then I am at a loss of what to say.

All of your arguments have been said and done by others over the past year since 5th was released...and on paper it looks like you have a point. Unfortunately, on the table it is a completely different story, which is why you see Lootas, Nobs, and Shoota boys in winning touney lists, and not Flash Gits.

FNP gives Gitz more survivability, which is handy. As you mentioned, 4+/FNP 2 wound models makes for some tough orks.
I would not advise throwing any mods other than 'more dakka' on the gitz. That one upgrade gives the best bang for your buck -- literally doubling their firepower.
That puts 10 of them at 330 points, which is about as pricey as you want to make the unit.

Gitz fit well for the spearhead of a shoota ork army. 3 full squads of shootas with 1 squad of gitz would make for some serious dakka and run you about 1000 points. Using them like this gives you the ability to take advantage of their assault weapons. Lootas are for the back lines, gitz are ment to move and shoot.
I would not bring more than 1 squad of them, unless you know your going to be playing an opponent with lots of MEQ -- like Necrons.
I would not describe them as the best unit in the ork codex, but they certainly do NOT doom your entire game if you spend 330 points on them.

The thing is, you can get 6 Kans for the same 330 (actually less) points, and they will form a far better spearhead for shoota boys.

6 BS3 Rokkits + 6 S10 DCCWs at AV11 with a KFF protecting them will do far more dmg and be more survivable than the Gits, plus they add a CC punch that the Gits cannot.

As for the KFF, lets face it, if you are running 90 Shootas boys on foot, you WILL be fielding at least one KFF.

Alerian, we all know you really don't like gits.

If you want to lose.....by all means waste over 400 points on Flash Gits.
So....why take the most one of the most overpriced and useless units in the codex
A better guide for using Flash Gits would be: Don't!
Reason 5. THEY ARE TERRIBLE.
If you want to lose, you use Flash Gits.
Flash Gits are complete fail

People use units that are not stellar. That might be for the challenge, or playing people not as skilled. Not every game is hard tournament play.
Might I suggest saying "that they are not the best units, but if you want to use them, here is what they are good for."

labmouse42:

I agree, but I don't get where people keep investing in a full 10 Ork mob of them. Five and a Painboy seems to be a good compromise on points, firepower, and whatnot. Five with all the upgrades gives you Assault 10, APD6-1, Pre-measuring.

I'd put them in the vanguard of mobs of Ork Shootas, possibly accompanying a Mekboy with a Kustom Force Field as his bodyguard - giving him the benefit of the Painboy. Heck, give him a Kustom Mega Blaster and some 'Eavy Armour, and he can add to the dakka.

I guess if you were making a complete shootey ork build you might be able to form a list around them (they need to be a big part of your strategy for that price not just a toy). The only reason to take gitz over nobz is that you want to focus on shooting and want to have the option to charge into assault. Certainly you will go shoota boyz in the build with lots of lootas as elite choices. Gitz would be your heavy choice. It's the price. Are they cost effective for what they are going to offer. Is a gitz shooting better than geting a full kan wall or a couple battlewagons to make your gunline mobile.

If you want to be mobile you need to buy the gitz a BW. That's 2 heavy choices. You only have 1 BW left to throw around on lootas and shoota boyz. I just don't see them working in a BW shooting list. I don't think a BW shooting list makes that much sense anyway.

That leave a full footsloggin list with 30 block shoota boyz with lootas in the back and kan wall in the front. You don't need a full 9 kans for a kan wall so you have the FOC space. The question is do you have the pnts to spend on them. Would 3 more KMB kans be a better cheaper pick? They have a constant AP2, STR8 and have a BS3.

My tactic for Flash gits is to give them superhero capes!!!
My enemies usually go before the game "uh, whuzzat unit there with the capes?" and i answer "Theire my FLASH gitz Muhahhaa!!!"

But on a more serious note.
I really like the ideas youve had so far, with the painboyz and the meks and the weirdboyz, heck why not all three! But my thought is that the only upgrade worth its points, and actually the only mandatory upgrade, for gitz is more Dakka, it doubles your firepower for only 5 points.
I like to think of flash gits as an accompanying force for a footslogger army, the boyz an really use the cover fire and target saturation, and if you have a unit of nobbz in the frontline as well then your opponent will find it really hard to pick his targets, we all know nobbz are helluva killy, but those Gitz can really scare your average MEQ player.
My selling factor on the gitz was the first part of the post really, the convertion possibilities are endless, but personally idd have liked to see them get assult 2 weapons to begin with in order for them to be effective (thus be assult 3 if you buy more dakka)

Let's see.....
430pts for a Squad of 10 Flash Gitz with Painboy and Upgrades.
20shots
5+ to hit
7 Hit
S6
On MEQs
2+ to Wound
6 Wounds.
65ish % chance to be AP3 or less
So Maybe 6 dead or perhaps only 2 dead.
In cover its only 3 dead.

430pts for 3 dead marines.

I wouldn't take them. But thats just me. Someone Mathhammer 430pts of Nobs for comparison Please.

Does lootas make ok count as models for flash gits? :x

LunaHound wrote:Does lootas make ok count as models for flash gits? :x

No, Lootas are too small, all Flash Gitz are Nobz with big flashy guns, because normal Boyz would never grow enough teef to afford that kind of dakka.

But remember that deff guns make a good base for a snazz gun.

Madgod wrote:Let's see.....
430pts for a Squad of 10 Flash Gitz with Painboy and Upgrades.
20shots
5+ to hit
7 Hit
S6
On MEQs
2+ to Wound
6 Wounds.
65ish % chance to be AP3 or less
So Maybe 6 dead or perhaps only 2 dead.
In cover its only 3 dead.

430pts for 3 dead marines.

I wouldn't take them. But thats just me. Someone Mathhammer 430pts of Nobs for comparison Please.

Correct. Flash Gitz simply do not perform offensively relative to other shooting platforms, like 'Zooka Kans or Lootas. Their defensive and counterassault utility is generally outperformed by a similar points' level of Nobz.

No matter how you slice it this is one of the least competitive elements of the Ork codex on a point-for-point basis.

You can always take a unit for fun. If you're taking a unit for fun then discussing how to make them competitive is irrelevant. If your basis is "because I want to take this unit" then there's no reason to convince anyone for or against.

I think that Flash Gitz are 'supposed' to be some kind of orky devastator squad.

Shootier and More Dakka are manditory, Even with just a painboy the already have a better armor save then regular boyz (so this essentially gives them 4++). Their problems are their 24" range, and even with more dakka, it's not enough to justify their cost, Lootas shoot stronger shots farther while costing less. Also not going for the Gitz is the fact that they take up a heavy support slot. Due to their Gitfindas, they should always shoot, but the shots may not always be worth it. There's a 1 out of 3 chance they will punch through terminator armor, but that's it.

Cool for a pirate theme, but there are better things to back up your boyz with.

I have found the best possible way to use gitz in an army is to "force conflict" with them, as in having a group of truck boyz give the gitz there ride and sit on a home objective babysitting lootaz(works as good counter charge unit for deep strikers), and flat-outing straight at them with the gitz accompanied by a KFF big mek. You drop em off next turn right in front of a juicy unit and basically force them to think, "ok, I have 2 choices, I can either go after his troops protected by the kff, or try and kill his gitz squad, with eavy armor, FnP and a 5+ cover save, and 2 wounds... there are only ten of them..."

Now you could give the mek a PK, attack squig, suddenly they have decent CC ability and if you have the points a combi weapon or KMB, and thats added shootiness. Imagine what it would take to get rid of that unit, and what therefore would be ignoring the kanz, or large units of boyz, or whatever that you are rolling straight at him...

If he chooses to ignore the gitz, he will have a squad in front of him with ded killy weapons and decent CC to mop up if neccesary, that could potentially run through his lines. Shoot, assault, shoot, assault, etc.

Its not super hard or anything, but it DOES work...

gameandwatch wrote:I have found the best possible way to use gitz in an army is to "force conflict" with them, as in having a group of truck boyz give the gitz there ride and sit on a home objective babysitting lootaz(works as good counter charge unit for deep strikers), and flat-outing straight at them with the gitz accompanied by a KFF big mek. You drop em off next turn right in front of a juicy unit and basically force them to think, "ok, I have 2 choices, I can either go after his troops protected by the kff, or try and kill his gitz squad, with eavy armor, FnP and a 5+ cover save, and 2 wounds... there are only ten of them..."

Now you could give the mek a PK, attack squig, suddenly they have decent CC ability and if you have the points a combi weapon or KMB, and thats added shootiness. Imagine what it would take to get rid of that unit, and what therefore would be ignoring the kanz, or large units of boyz, or whatever that you are rolling straight at him...

If he chooses to ignore the gitz, he will have a squad in front of him with ded killy weapons and decent CC to mop up if neccesary, that could potentially run through his lines. Shoot, assault, shoot, assault, etc.

Its not super hard or anything, but it DOES work...

All this is fine, EXCEPT fore the fact that you can do the same thing with Nobs who will be far deadlier, cost less, live longer, and score. Why take Gits again???

As far as just babysitting a home objective or Lootas, you are better off with shoota boys who will be "more killy" than Gits, FAR cheaper, and again...score.

No one has yet to offer a single role for Flash Gits that Nobs, Shoota Boys, or Lootas would not be better in. Gits are a unit that tries to be good at multiple things, while in the end up being worse than any of their counterparts.

The only reason to take them is because you "want" to.; however, "wanting" to take a unit is not always the sound tactical decision...and this is a tactic thread.
Flash Gits offer ZERO tactical utility when compared to other choices in the codex, because other units can fulfill thier roles better and cheaper. This means that point-for-point, they are one of your worst tactical choices, and that just by fielding them, you put yourself at disadvantage.

I guess you didnt read that the truck boys, either shootas or sluggas, will be sitting with the lootas/home objective...

And you didn't read his point that 400 points of Shoota Boyz will put out far more pain than 400 points' worth of Flash Gitz.

I love the idea of having an "all the oddboyz" unit with the Bigmek and Weirdboy in with the flashgitz and painboyz. I'd love to build a themed army around that unit.

I really don't understand why flash gits are heavy support, and lootas are elites, when they should really be the other way around. Why did GW do that?

Possibly because there's already two different Nob choices in Elites. If you take two Warlords, then you can have three Elite Nobs, two Troop Nobs, and three Heavy Support Nobs.

I'm disappointed....Noone Mathhammered for me.... Oh well....

Let's See : 430pts of Shoota Boyz (so noone can point out Nobz only work in CC)
2 x Squad of 30 boyz and then another squad of 11 boyz to fill the gaps.
Thats 71 x 2 = 142 shots (!!!!)
BS2 = 47 hits
S4 vs MEQs = 24 wounds (ish)
Thats 8 Marines dead after 3+ saves.
Compare that with 6 if they're lucky for flash gitz.
Then realise that the boyz are in 3 squads (or more if you want) so FAR more power in CC AND they can shoot and assault different squads.

Is there any contest? You decide. But here are the facts.

FYI: That is still horrific for 430pts and 142 S4 shots. I dont care what you say but orks are NOT shooty. Ever. But at least its better than Flash Gitz.

Let's look at 25 Marines and see how well they do. I'm excluding special weapons which can skew it somewhat, but honestly most Tac squads tote meltas/multimeltas anyhow:

25*2 (if within 12") = 50 shots, 33 hit, 16 wounds, 5 dead Marines

Looks to me like Orks are more shooty than Marines at equivalent point levels....

And if we compare at...say... 13" = 25 shots, 17 hit, 8 wound, 3 dead Marines

Now Orks are almost 3 times as shooty!

Also your Flash Gitz number is on the very high side... if you figure in cover they're more realistically killing 3 MEQs/turn.

Shoota Boyz remain undisputedly one of the best standalone infantry killers in 40k.

So what are the numbers for Terminators?

Given the low Ork BS, it might be something to look at the entire curve of their performance, rather than just the average.

Also, tactically speaking, how does one go about getting 71 Boyz in line of sight and range?

10 Terminators get 20 shots, 13 hit, 6 wound, and 2 Marines die. Due to costing 40 pts/model, you get one of the lowest returns.

Due to the incredibly high number of shots Shoota Boyz are getting, the average is pretty reliable. Rolling outside of a normal distribution on 20 dice is much easier than on 140+.

And the 18 inch range makes it pretty easy to get 71 Boyz into firing distance. 71 Boyz really doesn't take up as much room on the board as you'd think, although it does make you vulnerable to blasts and templates. It makes you much less vulnerable to AT fire, however, which isn't really something MEQs/Termis can say.

I meant how the shots of Shoota Boyz and Flash Gitz count against Terminators.

Regarding getting all those Boyz into range, the vulnerability to blasts and templates is something to consider, but I'd be more concerned with assaults. Pro-active assaults on Orks, particularly via dedicated assault troops like Assault Marines or Raptors will shut that firepower down faster and more effectively than shooting.

Nurglith:
It is all about your list. When I footslog my shoota boys, I run a Kan wall in front of them. There is not much of a chance of assaulting the boys...you have to hit the kan wall first....then the boys get to counter assault.

When I run my BW list, you stick 20 man shoota boys sqauds in BWs...with 3 BWs, you have 60 shootaboys that can move 7" (RPJ) and still shoot out, while their BW needs to be hit on 6s in assault. Then the boys get to assault out of it.

Of course, both of these lists make use of KFF to protect the Kan Wall/BWs.

Either way, those Shoota boys will be far more effective at killing than Gits will be for the same points. Plus, they will normally get the charge to finish the enemy off.

Also, remember that Orks are only BS 2, which means they only hit 1/3 of the time...usually. However, it only takes slightly above average rolling for Orks to shoot better, and the more dice that you role, the more opportunities you allows for better odds. It is really hard to roll worse than average with Ork shooting...in fact you have the opportunity to roll better 2/3s of the time.

This is why more dice is the key to sucessful Ork shooting, and why units that can pour out shots work best for them, such as Lootas and Shoota boys.