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If it was about my list I'd raise this in the army list section. Here's I'm more concerned with using Flashgitz in the field. Obviously this has to tie into the army list somehow, because not tactic in the world will save a bad strategy, but the lack of widespread knowledge of effective tactics may be why people don't include Flash Gitz in their strategies.

Regarding volume of fire: that would be why More Dakka would be the strategic choice in fielding them, because more opportunities to do well with them would exist.

Obviously Flash Gitz will be outgunned by an equivalent weight in Shoota Boyz, but as mentioned I don't think they can be reduced to just their firepower, although their poor BS is to some degree made up by their Snazzguns having better Strength and Armour Piercing than Shootas. Like Shootas they can charge, and probably do so at a similar reduction in points efficiency.

This inefficiency may be made up for by the presence of a Painboy meaning that they survive as a unit for longer than an equivalent in a Boyz mob without a Painboy or 'Eavy Armour. Likewise the strength of their Snazzguns, ability to engage in close combat decently, and relatively small unit size suggests that they can accompany a Weirdboy and synergize with him if the Weirdboy uses 'Ere We Go' , be enhanced by his close combat potential and 'Warpath', and so on.

Their Gitfindas seem like excellent wargear to complement units like Lootas and Shootas, as you can use them as a spotting unit to maximize the effectiveness of fire. I think this is important considering the relatively short ranges of Ork weapons, and the need to roll as many dice as possible - all things being equal you want to shoot unit A with twenty dice rather than unit B with eighteen. A Gitfinda enabled Frazzle or Zzap seems handy to me.

It seems to me that a big part of the problem with flash gits with a pain boy is that they are still vulnerable to the weapon types that are now not going to be fired at heavy support choices. Every shot from a lascannon, missile launcher, melta, exorcist, battle cannon etc. is going to drop expensive flash gitz with no chance at redemption.

As to flash gitz vs Nobs, a full squad of 10 with painboy (so 9 firing gitz) has 18 shots with upgrade. (I don't have my codex on me, but that's what I recall.)
So 18 shots at Str5 with a d6 AP means they average .867 Terminator kills (factoring in the 1/3 chance of getting AP2 or AP1). At Str6 that goes to 1.09.
If you get the -1 AP upgrade, it is .98. At Str6 that goes to 1.24.

So at least 330 points to get 10 gitz, a painboy, and the Assault 2 guns. Add 50 points for each gun upgrade and the cybork body. Maybe get away with 45 points per gun upgrade if you can talk your friend into it.

Flash gitz are just poorly written. It is unfortunate, but they are 5-10 points too expensive.

Madgod wrote:Let's see.....
430pts for a Squad of 10 Flash Gitz with Painboy and Upgrades.
20shots
5+ to hit
7 Hit
S5
On MEQs
3+ to Wound
4-5 Wounds.
50% chance to be AP3 or less
50% of 4-5 dead / 50% of 1-2 dead.

I wouldn't take them. But thats just me. Someone Mathhammer 430pts of Nobs for comparison Please.

First of all, the only thing to take on your gitz is more dakka. That puts your squad at 300 points.
Also if you take a painboy, your gits go down in dakka, so for this comparison lets leave both nobs and gitz without painboys.

10 Nobs w/ 'eavy armor, twin linked shoota -- 300 points (same at gitz)
At 24" range
Nobz cannot shoot - Gitz win out.

At 18" range
20shots
5+ to hit
~11 Hit
S4
4+ to Wound (On MEQs)
~5 Wounds.
With saves, your looking between 1 and 2 MEQ dead.

Were you looking for how the nobs do in assault compared to gitz? That's comparing apples to oranges. You asked how they compared when put directly toe to toe with Gitz.
As per usual - I do not think gits are the best unit in the heavy support section of the ork codex, they are flavorful units whose purpose is suited for very specific armies.

It is also worth noting that 120 points of Kans with big shootas yields .495 unsaved wounds on terminators, with the bonus of being immune to small arms and being a lot scarier in melee, as well as saving you 210 points to boot. The grotzooka is a bit more expensive, but might have better returns still due to it's template and higher strength.

So is anyone going to address my points about their Gitfindas, and their synergies with independent characters, and shooting mobs?

How about their combination with Badrukk? Has anyone considered taking less than ten in a mob?

I already answered you point about Gitdindas on the first page of this thread: Any player worth their salt can eyeball ranges...this makes Gitfindas a novelty at best.

Because of this, they add no synergy with Lootas, Shoota boys, or Wierdboy powers.

Sure, Gitfindas might be useful for the newest of players, but that is about it.

@nurglitch

you could consider a mob of 5 with more dakka for 150pts in a footsloggin list for 1000pts. they pose a big enough threat to not be ignored but will take a reasonable amount of time to kill to allow the rest of your army to wreak havoc so IMO a small force will do better than a a big one in this kind of scenario but I have yet to play test this but hidden in a foot sloggin' list could pose a problem.

Nurglitch wrote:I meant how the shots of Shoota Boyz and Flash Gitz count against Terminators....Pro-active assaults on Orks, particularly via dedicated assault troops like Assault Marines or Raptors will shut that firepower down faster and more effectively than shooting.

Er, when was the last time anybody encountered seriously-played Terminators if they weren't pouring out of a Land Raider? In that situation, three times the number of Boyz is going to perform far, far better than a unit of Gitz that dies to double toughness ID.

As for Assault Marines or Raptors, again, Shoota Boyz will probably kill 80% of the squad in one turn of shooting with enough wound saturation to take out the special weapons. Even if they don't shoot them at all, charging Assault Marines will kill roughly 5-6 Orks in the assault; the Orks swinging back will be able to take down 3, and the PK means they'll attrition them away over two or three assault phases.

Why do people try and compare Gitz to another unit? its not possible!

They are nobz as such, but with ranged options, meaning they are neither 100% nobz or lootas (like commonly compared to)

OK, they are a tad overpriced, but they arent a bad unit in all, badruk is a nice addition, even though he bumps up the unit cost even more.

I would honestly like to see the basis for that argument. If you're spending the points on Flashgits, then you're not spending the points for something else. A unit can't be 'overpriced, but not bad' because that's what overpriced means - bad for the price, or compared to other similar options.

I would say the unit as a whole and its abilities makes it somewhat overpriced.
They are somewhat moderate in both shooting and combat, meaning they have no amazing skill.
Thier wargear is pretty much basics to orks and nothing special (gitfindas may be somewhat half decent, but the low BS makes them pretty low down on the amazing items list)

I just see them more as a unit that should have more options.
At one point gitz were amazing, but since then everything has been taken away from them.

Maybe the options of a bosspole or some extra ranged gear would make them more of an option, but as of now, they are a basic unit with basic abilities.

they just dont stand out enough as a unit worth taking.


Not only that, but with orks you either go with shooting or pure combat, either way, gitz dont really make the cut since there are allways cheaper and better options when going for a pure force.

To be pretty blunt though, i blame lootas for this since they have some of the best weapons per points in the game.

But yea, hope that rambling wasnt too random and actually made some sense.

sourclams wrote:
Also your Flash Gitz number is on the very high side... if you figure in cover they're more realistically killing 3 MEQs/turn.

sourclams wrote:10 Terminators get 20 shots, 13 hit, 6 wound, and 2 Marines die. Due to costing 40 pts/model, you get one of the lowest returns.

@Sourclams:

I mentioned cover earlier see above.

Also it is important to note Sourclams that those same Tac Marines/Termies will survive way longer against those boyz than other boyz will. If we fire those Tacs at the squad of boyz then we see:
50 shots, 33 hits, 17 wounds, 17 dead boyz. The tacs will survive longer. Also if you use CSM they will get higher LD and an extra CC attack for the same price.

@Nurglitch:

Boyz vs Termies:
142 shots, 47 hits, 24 wounds, 4 unsaved. It just goes to show It's all about quantity over quality.

Flash Gitz would be so much better, and actually usable, if their Dakkaguns used the small blast templates instead of being single hit.

Or were rerollable.

Or had BS3.

Or had more shots.

Other codecies definetly have worse options, and when a unit like Flash Gitz is the worst in your dex, it goes to show just how good your codex is, but the Gitz really aren't worth taking when you consider what else you have available to you. They look like crazy kinds of fun to convert and play with, but the unreliability combined with the lack of volume just kills them.

Madgod wrote:
I mentioned cover earlier see above.

Er, you definitely didn't include cover in the calculation. 10 Flash Gitz firing 20 times will hit roughly 7 times, wounding 6. If it's AP4+, 2 Marines die. If it's AP3 and they're in cover, 3 Marines die. And if for whatever reason you're shooting at Marines in an open field, only then do you kill 6.

Also it is important to note Sourclams that those same Tac Marines/Termies will survive way longer against those boyz than other boyz will. If we fire those Tacs at the squad of boyz then we see:
50 shots, 33 hits, 17 wounds, 17 dead boyz. The tacs will survive longer. Also if you use CSM they will get higher LD and an extra CC attack for the same price.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say, so maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but Tac Marines/Termies definitely don't survive any longer on a points-efficiency basis. And again, you're ignoring cover, and that's simply not a reasonable assumption against an Ork player. Kustom Force field, terrain, even 'Ard Boyz screens with Mad Dok Grotsnik are all tools in the box that are utilized by Ork players. With just a KFF, 25 Marines are going to kill maybe 11 Boyz. With terrain or a screen it drops to 8-9, or between 48 and 66 points. Orks versus Marines, on the other hand, are going to kill roughly the same number of models, but at 3x the point cost. Plague Marines are the only troop unit that can beat out Ork Boyz for survivability against small arms fire, all the others simply lose out to 6 point T4 models.

Likewise shoota boyz are also able to kill more Ork boyz due to simply having more shots to chuck out. Offensively Orks are unbeatable on a points efficiency basis in a small-arms firefight versus other troops. Defensively they only lose out to Plague Marines.

Alerian wrote:
When I run my BW list, you stick 20 man shoota boys sqauds in BWs...with 3 BWs, you have 60 shootaboys that can move 7" (RPJ) and still shoot out, while their BW needs to be hit on 6s in assault. Then the boys get to assault out of it.

So I've played for awhile that RPJ gives lets you do that and BW get hit on only 6+ which only makes sense since the vehicle moved 7 and generally non-ork opponents aren't supposed to be so inspired by red paint that they can magically hit vehilces better, but I was ruled against that during my second game at 'Ard Boyz. Ghaz was then able to hit them on 4+ instead of 6+ which makes a difference So as a tactic just know that some out there may disagree with that.

sourclams wrote:

Madgod wrote:
I mentioned cover earlier see above.

Er, you definitely didn't include cover in the calculation. 10 Flash Gitz firing 20 times will hit roughly 7 times, wounding 6. If it's AP4+, 2 Marines die. If it's AP3 and they're in cover, 3 Marines die. And if for whatever reason you're shooting at Marines in an open field, only then do you kill 6.

No you are wrong Sourclams. Here is my post on Page 1.

Madgod wrote:
Let's see.....
430pts for a Squad of 10 Flash Gitz with Painboy and Upgrades.
20shots
5+ to hit
7 Hit
S6
On MEQs
2+ to Wound
6 Wounds.
65ish % chance to be AP3 or less
So Maybe 6 dead or perhaps only 2 dead.
In cover its only 3 dead.

430pts for 3 dead marines.

See that? That was the part about cover.

Also you're probably right about the survivability but I spose I meant more about Boyz dying faster to anything at all compared to marines. Also the lack of flexibility is affected. I didn't say what I meant very well sorry.